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Thread: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

  1. #151
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    I was going to say there are more Asians than Chinese east of India/Bangladesh, but it turns out there aren't.

    Yet India seems set to overtake China by the end of the decade.

    And Georgia's population trend is to double in size within 2500 Years of Darkness.
    There are more stars than Chinese?


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  2. #152
    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017...y-eu-migrants/

    So, apparently, despite the British Government showing full willingness to grant resident EU citizens full rights of residency, the EU doesn't believe they can do an early deal - but don't want to be seen as "blocking" such a deal.

    In other news, Beskar to select most edible hat.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."

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  3. #153
    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    I reccomend a nacho sombrero.

    This is why ensuring EU residents without guarenteed reciprication would be a massive mistake; You can not give away your only hostage and expect an opponant of this bad character to just do the same through honour.
    Last edited by Greyblades; 05-02-2017 at 11:41.
    Being better than the worst does not inherently make you good. But being better than the rest lets you brag.


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  4. #154
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    So, apparently, despite the British Government showing full willingness to grant resident EU citizens full rights of residency, the EU doesn't believe they can do an early deal - but don't want to be seen as "blocking" such a deal.
    And the UK needed to exit the EU to keep the immigrants away?
    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
    The article exists for a reason yes, I did not write it...

  5. #155
    Horse Archer Senior Member Sarmatian's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017...y-eu-migrants/

    So, apparently, despite the British Government showing full willingness to grant resident EU citizens full rights of residency, the EU doesn't believe they can do an early deal - but don't want to be seen as "blocking" such a deal.

    In other news, Beskar to select most edible hat.
    What's the astonishment here? That EU believes a deal can't be struck as early as June? Or because she mentioned twice that she wants it done by June? OMG, Theresa has spoken twice now, everybody drop whatever you're doing and make it so.

    It wouldn't work like that if EU was the Catholic flock and Theresa May the Pope.

  6. #156
    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    May's already made the offer of equivalent guarentees of citizenship, she did it months ago. The only thing keeping May from making a deal is the EU not reciprocating, and the article indicates they're refusinv in an attempt to make May look bad.
    Being better than the worst does not inherently make you good. But being better than the rest lets you brag.


    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    Don't be scared that you don't freak out. Be scared when you don't care about freaking out
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  7. #157
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    And the UK needed to exit the EU to keep the immigrants away?
    It helped didn't it, it's the Brexit's most immediate succes. Out of many to come as the UK is better of without the Brussel and the Eurocrats know that very well.

    timber

  8. #158
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    After watching the ECB turn off an on the liquidity taps to Italy until their gov't collapsed from the economic chaos, reading the ugly and duplicitous way that the Eurogroup Working Group bounced Yanis Varoufakis from pillar to post, and watching Cameron's failed attempt to renegotiate from the stated position of staying in the EU, you better believe I want a 'bloody difficult woman' to lead Britain now.

    I want a good deal, something equivalent to the Ukraine DCFTA with less ECB supervision, and there is no reason on god's earth why this should not be achievable. But... I am 110% ready to turn Britain into Singapore-on-steroids (relative to the EU), if that is the most effective economic response to EU intransigence. Britain would become a market economy rather than a social democracy, which is not what the left would want, but i'd be quite comfortable with that. It's not what I'd prefer, but freedom has a price.
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

  9. #159
    Senior Member Senior Member Brenus's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    After watching the ECB turn off an on the liquidity taps to Italy until their gov't collapsed from the economic chaos, reading the ugly and duplicitous way that the Eurogroup Working Group bounced Yanis Varoufakis from pillar to post, and watching Cameron's failed attempt to renegotiate from the stated position of staying in the EU, you better believe I want a 'bloody difficult woman' to lead Britain now.

    I want a good deal, something equivalent to the Ukraine DCFTA with less ECB supervision, and there is no reason on god's earth why this should not be achievable. But... I am 110% ready to turn Britain into Singapore-on-steroids (relative to the EU), if that is the most effective economic response to EU intransigence. Britain would become a market economy rather than a social democracy, which is not what the left would want, but i'd be quite comfortable with that. It's not what I'd prefer, but freedom has a price.
    Except of course if you are the one having to work in the sweat shop... And a nice tax-barrier with EU might made you still too competitive for European market, but I am sure Zimbabwe will buy something... And say good-bye to your mobile, tablets, and giant TV screens, but, as say the one who never really suffer of lack of comfort, freedom has a price. Ask Bangladesh...
    And by the way, the "bloody difficult woman" changed her mind faster then Billy The Kid draw his gun.
    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire.

    "I've been in few famous last stands, lad, and they're butcher shops. That's what Blouse's leading you into, mark my words. What'll you lot do then? We've had a few scuffles, but that's not war. Think you'll be man enough to stand, when the metal meets the meat?"
    "You did, sarge", said Polly." You said you were in few last stands."
    "Yeah, lad. But I was holding the metal"
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  10. #160
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenus View Post
    Except of course if you are the one having to work in the sweat shop... And a nice tax-barrier with EU might made you still too competitive for European market, but I am sure Zimbabwe will buy something... And say good-bye to your mobile, tablets, and giant TV screens, but, as say the one who never really suffer of lack of comfort, freedom has a price. Ask Bangladesh...
    And by the way, the "bloody difficult woman" changed her mind faster then Billy The Kid draw his gun.
    on the contrary, we'd end up growing faster than the continent (again).

    it would involve a lot of adam smithian creative destruction, the economy would look different in twenty years time, but we'd remain a rich country.

    but remember; this is not my preference, merely a fallback position. if all the points in my previous post that you fail to address come to pass.
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

  11. #161
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Greyblades View Post
    an opponant of this bad character to just do the same through honour.
    So you vote for more competition and then expect an opponent who does not actually oppose you?


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  12. #162
    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmatian View Post
    What's the astonishment here? That EU believes a deal can't be struck as early as June? Or because she mentioned twice that she wants it done by June? OMG, Theresa has spoken twice now, everybody drop whatever you're doing and make it so.

    It wouldn't work like that if EU was the Catholic flock and Theresa May the Pope.
    The astonishment is the EU's astonishment at Theresa May's position given it's been her position since at least November.

    It makes sense though, if you think about it.

    The UK, as a National Government is most concerned about the Rights of its citizens abroad and the Rights of Foreign Nationals working here. The EU, as a Super-National body is most concerned to maintain its budgets in order to meet its liabilities.

    So the EU won't discuss resident rights until the "Divorce Bill" is settled whilst the UK won't want to discuss the Bill until it knows the Rights of its citizens are protected.

    Basically, you have two different bodies with fundamentally incompatible goals and priorities - which is just another example of why we don't "fit" the EU's version of Europe.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."

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  13. #163
    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    So you vote for more competition and then expect an opponent who does not actually oppose you?
    What?
    Last edited by Greyblades; 05-02-2017 at 21:27.
    Being better than the worst does not inherently make you good. But being better than the rest lets you brag.


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  14. #164
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    The astonishment is the EU's astonishment at Theresa May's position given it's been her position since at least November.

    It makes sense though, if you think about it.

    The UK, as a National Government is most concerned about the Rights of its citizens abroad and the Rights of Foreign Nationals working here. The EU, as a Super-National body is most concerned to maintain its budgets in order to meet its liabilities.

    So the EU won't discuss resident rights until the "Divorce Bill" is settled whilst the UK won't want to discuss the Bill until it knows the Rights of its citizens are protected.

    Basically, you have two different bodies with fundamentally incompatible goals and priorities - which is just another example of why we don't "fit" the EU's version of Europe.
    Might not be pleasant at once but the brexit is political chemotherapy, I hope we follow soon

  15. #165

    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    The astonishment is the EU's astonishment at Theresa May's position given it's been her position since at least November.

    It makes sense though, if you think about it.

    The UK, as a National Government is most concerned about the Rights of its citizens abroad and the Rights of Foreign Nationals working here. The EU, as a Super-National body is most concerned to maintain its budgets in order to meet its liabilities.

    So the EU won't discuss resident rights until the "Divorce Bill" is settled whilst the UK won't want to discuss the Bill until it knows the Rights of its citizens are protected.

    Basically, you have two different bodies with fundamentally incompatible goals and priorities - which is just another example of why we don't "fit" the EU's version of Europe.
    It's not really, since by being in a position of leaving you inherently assume or express different goals and priorities - it's a circular proposition.
    Vitiate Man.

    History repeats the old conceits
    The glib replies, the same defeats


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  16. #166
    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    It's not really, since by being in a position of leaving you inherently assume or express different goals and priorities - it's a circular proposition.
    No,it isn't.

    We took the action of leaving because we express different priorities - something which has consistently put us at odds with "Eurocrats".
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."

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  17. #167

    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    No,it isn't.

    We took the action of leaving because we express different priorities - something which has consistently put us at odds with "Eurocrats".
    But the process of leaving isn't itself continuous with whatever those different priorities may be; it carries its own priorities.

    So don't conflate alleged political and economic differences before the decision to leave with how the decision to leave organizes priorities between the parties.
    Vitiate Man.

    History repeats the old conceits
    The glib replies, the same defeats


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  18. #168
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    It helped didn't it, it's the Brexit's most immediate succes.
    So all the Polish left?
    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
    The article exists for a reason yes, I did not write it...

  19. #169
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    So all the Polish left?
    Not talking about them, that's an issue of course but not having to carry the weight of the consequences of of the childless mutti's birdcall is a blessing, the UK doesn't has to schaff das

  20. #170
    Senior Member Senior Member Brenus's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    I find quite funny the Tories' media finally discovered than in a divorce/negotiation the other party has as well interests and points to make. As soon May will have made her mind for at least one month, perhaps some real discussions might take place...
    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire.

    "I've been in few famous last stands, lad, and they're butcher shops. That's what Blouse's leading you into, mark my words. What'll you lot do then? We've had a few scuffles, but that's not war. Think you'll be man enough to stand, when the metal meets the meat?"
    "You did, sarge", said Polly." You said you were in few last stands."
    "Yeah, lad. But I was holding the metal"
    Sergeant Major Jackrum 10th Light Foot Infantery Regiment "Inns-and-Out"

  21. #171
    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Avoiding the mass displacement of their own people apparantly isnt one of those interests.
    Being better than the worst does not inherently make you good. But being better than the rest lets you brag.


    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    Don't be scared that you don't freak out. Be scared when you don't care about freaking out
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  22. #172
    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Nope, individual people are not important - only the survival of the EU dream.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."

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  23. #173
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    Might not be pleasant at once but the brexit is political chemotherapy, I hope we follow soon
    Have you applied for permanent residence in the UK yet? Or are you still insisting that the pain will be worth it, even as you live inside the EU and have no intention of leaving the EU?

  24. #174
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    Nope, individual people are not important - only the survival of the EU dream.
    Make that the comfortable bliss of eurocrats. Eurocrats are in panick and are radicalising, it's getting increasingly grotesque, talk about losing your gravitas.

    timber, just a little while
    Last edited by Fragony; 05-03-2017 at 10:44.

  25. #175
    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39789903

    And the Bill rises to €100Bn

    "There are reports in Brussels that the rising figure might include demands from countries like France and Poland for UK contributions to farm subsidies. The EU may also be planning to refuse to allow the UK a share of the EU's assets including buildings and bank deposits."

    On the other hand...

    "Zsolt Darvas, a senior fellow at the Bruegel think tank, said a range of factors would have to be taken into account - including the UK's rebate on budget payments and its share of EU borrowing - but he believed a credible figure would be somewhere between 25bn and 65bn euros."

    I really hope the EU is super-high balling here.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."

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  26. #176
    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    I get paying for access to the single market, but paying just to leave? Christ they are determined to prove farage's mafia comparison true.
    Being better than the worst does not inherently make you good. But being better than the rest lets you brag.


    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    Don't be scared that you don't freak out. Be scared when you don't care about freaking out
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  27. #177
    Forum Lurker Member Sir Moody's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Greyblades View Post
    I get paying for access to the single market, but paying just to leave? Christ they are determined to prove farage's mafia comparison true.
    They are not asking us to pay to leave - they are asking for us to pay up money we pledged to pay over X number of years before we decided to leave.

    Basically their argument is we promised to pay this money eventually so now we are leaving we should pay it all upfront now.

    I suspect what will happen is we will agree to pay but not all at once (ie keeping the current agreements) and probably not the entire amount.

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  28. #178
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    It's almost like other countries expect you to keep your promises and previously thought of you as trustworthy enough that they planned with the money you promised, but are now unsure about whether you won't just stop paying once you're out since you may seem less trustworthy now. Terrible mafia methods, I know.


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  29. #179
    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    It's almost like other countries expect you to keep your promises and previously thought of you as trustworthy enough that they planned with the money you promised, but are now unsure about whether you won't just stop paying once you're out since you may seem less trustworthy now. Terrible mafia methods, I know.
    You read the article I linked?

    Rumblings of a bill of 100bn, no accounting for the UK's share of the EU's assets given, you know, how much we paid to build a lot of it.

    Once all is said and done I imagine that the actual bill we owe, offset against everything the EU will have to "buy" from us when we leave (like our part-ownership of buildings etc.) the bill will be less than 50bn.

    If the EU fails to take into account the cost of the UK's past contributions then the bill will be higher, and unfair.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."

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  30. #180
    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    100 bn is over 9 years of our Eu contributions, 13 if we count what we regain through spending. To continue paying for the two years of article 40's enactment is obvious, even paying a year or two extra to help the Eu adjust is fair enough but to cover the next decade of funding, of which we will see none of the benefits ourselves, before we even start talking about single market access, is absurd.
    Being better than the worst does not inherently make you good. But being better than the rest lets you brag.


    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    Don't be scared that you don't freak out. Be scared when you don't care about freaking out
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

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