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Thread: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

  1. #2761
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    [Sigh]

    Because these two entities - along with NATO amongst others - the ability to have judicial supremacy over UK courts.

    Every time I say the same thing. And every time you ignore it since it doesn't fit your narrative.

    Do you want us to withdraw from the ECHR, the ICJ, and their parent organisations (the Council of Europe, the United Nations)? They have limited jurisdiction over areas of UK law, and we never had referendums on joining these organisations. Doubly so when you count the numerous conventions under the UN banner, such as that on maritime law, and similar. Are you going to apply your principled arguments across the board?

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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    Do you want us to withdraw from the ECHR, the ICJ, and their parent organisations (the Council of Europe, the United Nations)? They have limited jurisdiction over areas of UK law, and we never had referendums on joining these organisations. Doubly so when you count the numerous conventions under the UN banner, such as that on maritime law, and similar. Are you going to apply your principled arguments across the board?
    Again - mission creep.

    And, indeed, the UK is less keen on the ECHR now that they've started telling us prisoners should get the vote - i.e. interfering directly in our democratic processes.

    As to Leaver Mission Creep - the current deal is stuck because of the backstop, which actually precludes a Norway-style deal with the UK because a Norway-style deal envisages us NOT being part of a common Customs Regime.

    So, really, the mission creep is rhetoric - a substantial portion of Leavers support No Deal as a prerequisite to a Norway-Style deal.
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  3. #2763
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    Again - mission creep.

    And, indeed, the UK is less keen on the ECHR now that they've started telling us prisoners should get the vote - i.e. interfering directly in our democratic processes.

    As to Leaver Mission Creep - the current deal is stuck because of the backstop, which actually precludes a Norway-style deal with the UK because a Norway-style deal envisages us NOT being part of a common Customs Regime.

    So, really, the mission creep is rhetoric - a substantial portion of Leavers support No Deal as a prerequisite to a Norway-Style deal.
    If the back stop is so unacceptable, does this mean that Leavers would like the UK to be able to unilaterally revoke international treaties? Since that is why Ireland (backed by the EU) insists on the continuation of the GFA.

    Do you want us to leave the United Nations as well? There are a host of international conventions under the UN banner that rule over UK citizens, such as that on maritime law that I cited. They do not currently clash with UK law, as they are enshrined in UK law, but when the international law changes, UK law follows suit, and international courts rule on their application. Is this unacceptable to you as well?

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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    If the back stop is so unacceptable, does this mean that Leavers would like the UK to be able to unilaterally revoke international treaties? Since that is why Ireland (backed by the EU) insists on the continuation of the GFA.

    Do you want us to leave the United Nations as well? There are a host of international conventions under the UN banner that rule over UK citizens, such as that on maritime law that I cited. They do not currently clash with UK law, as they are enshrined in UK law, but when the international law changes, UK law follows suit, and international courts rule on their application. Is this unacceptable to you as well?
    The mere institution of border-checks does not itself breach the GFA. It makes it harder to operate certain parts of the GFA but it is not a breach in and of itself, the GFA merely mandates no militarisation of the border. Indeed, many do not want to sign up to the backstop precisely because they do not want to be in the process of abrogating an international treaty (the Withdrawal Agreement) in the future.

    This is why many, including myself, would want a timed backstop - one that lasts (say) five years after the end of the transitional period. Had this been enacted it would have given us a further seven years to sort out the problem. As it is, the EU demands a perpetual backstop, which means potentially perpetual limbo - making leaving the EU economically impractical.

    I'm sure at this point you'll want to point out how this shows that we should stay, but remember that it is the EU that has created these circumstances that make leaving so hard - they are not intrinsic - this is a manufactured crisis.
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics...o-deal-brexit/

    YANIS VAROUFAKIS says "No Deal".

    *Shrug*
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    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    And, indeed, the UK is less keen on the ECHR now that they've started telling us prisoners should get the vote - i.e. interfering directly in our undemocratic processes.
    Corrected that for you.


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  7. #2767
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    The mere institution of border-checks does not itself breach the GFA. It makes it harder to operate certain parts of the GFA but it is not a breach in and of itself, the GFA merely mandates no militarisation of the border. Indeed, many do not want to sign up to the backstop precisely because they do not want to be in the process of abrogating an international treaty (the Withdrawal Agreement) in the future.

    This is why many, including myself, would want a timed backstop - one that lasts (say) five years after the end of the transitional period. Had this been enacted it would have given us a further seven years to sort out the problem. As it is, the EU demands a perpetual backstop, which means potentially perpetual limbo - making leaving the EU economically impractical.

    I'm sure at this point you'll want to point out how this shows that we should stay, but remember that it is the EU that has created these circumstances that make leaving so hard - they are not intrinsic - this is a manufactured crisis.
    The EU doesn't demand a perpetual backstop. It's until the UK comes up with the technological solution they say is there to be implemented. Once that technological solution they tout is in place, the backstop can be cancelled. How is this perpetual? The Leavers say that the solution is there and can be enacted. The EU says, prove it, but until you've proved it, let's have the backstop. Why do you blame the EU for holding Brexiteers to their promises?

  8. #2768
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics...o-deal-brexit/

    YANIS VAROUFAKIS says "No Deal".

    *Shrug*
    Wasn't the EU's mistreatment of Greece one of your main arguments against it? How does that picture against Greece siding with the EU against the UK?

  9. #2769
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Are private citizens allowed to negotiate with foreign states without the sanction of the government?

  10. #2770
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    Chlorinated chicken is an issue because, in the US, it's the sanitation catch all at the end of a production process where large parts fail current UK regulations. The chlorine isn't the issue. The reason why chlorination is required in the US is the issue. As an example, there was an investigation last year after salmonella caused 300 cases of sickness and 1 death in the UK. In the US, around 450 die each year from salmonella. No chlorination, and bad production processes is harder to hide. US production methods reduce costs by around 20%. AFAIK one of the US demands is that location of origin is not mandatory labelling.

    On the unlikelihood of the UK government selling off the NHS: this is what Trump wants. The most likely next PM, Boris Johnson, is Trump's favoured candidate. The man who has influenced the Tories on Brexit more than any other, Nigel Farage, has Bannon's and Trump's support, and is on record as saying that the UK should adopt the US healthcare system. In short, May is going soon (this Friday), and the next government will likely look favourably on Trump's ideas for the UK.
    While the death rate you note is much higher per capita in the USA, the incidence of Salmonella is not. Link While these are extrapolated statistics which seek to account for unreported incidence, the extrapolation system was the same for both. In a comparison, the USA has 514.8 cases per 100,000 people each year, while the UK is at 514.7 cases per 100,000 people. Given the closeness in rate of incidence, this suggests that the salmonella linked deaths in the USA are NOT the result of the food processing industry/growers/distributors but of something on the treatment (or lack thereof) side. That is still a problem for the USA, but would not likely be imported.
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    Corrected that for you.
    Says the man whose Government has banned referendums lest its people backslide into Fascism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    The EU doesn't demand a perpetual backstop. It's until the UK comes up with the technological solution they say is there to be implemented. Once that technological solution they tout is in place, the backstop can be cancelled. How is this perpetual? The Leavers say that the solution is there and can be enacted. The EU says, prove it, but until you've proved it, let's have the backstop. Why do you blame the EU for holding Brexiteers to their promises?
    So a backstop with no time limit that will remain in place unless and until it is superseded?

    Presumably if the alternative solution does not meet EU approval, regardless of whether it works the backstop will also remain in place.

    The backstop is worded in such a way that the UK will inevitably be hostage to it unless and until the EU says otherwise.

    So... perpetual in fact.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    Wasn't the EU's mistreatment of Greece one of your main arguments against it? How does that picture against Greece siding with the EU against the UK?
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    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    Says the man whose Government has banned referendums lest its people backslide into Fascism.

    So a backstop with no time limit that will remain in place unless and until it is superseded?

    Presumably if the alternative solution does not meet EU approval, regardless of whether it works the backstop will also remain in place.

    The backstop is worded in such a way that the UK will inevitably be hostage to it unless and until the EU says otherwise.

    So... perpetual in fact.

    Do not confuse a government with its people, be it Israel, America, or Greece.
    If your fear is that the EU will kibosh any solution as unsatisfactory, why not request that the Brexiteers publish their plans for the technological solutions for peer review? Get them to test their solution by implementing it in a small but representative area, test its workability, and show its findings and costs. That's how all technological solutions work, with a blueprint, a prototype, and findings leading back into the feedback loop. The EU doesn't need to be involved at this stage, let alone any backstop. If the Brexiteers are so confident about their solution, they can go ahead and implement a prototype with plans for how to scale it up to full size. Why blame the EU without even taking the first steps that are entirely within your hands? Do you even want to practically break free from the EU, or are you only interested in blaming them for anything and everything whilst taking no responsibility on your side?

  13. #2773
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Does anyone have any views on Farage's reported plans to engage in trade talks with the US administration?

  14. #2774

    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    Does anyone have any views on Farage's reported plans to engage in trade talks with the US administration?
    Is Kerrygold from Republic of Ireland or Northern Ireland?

    If it's the former, I don't need anything from you lot. Otherwise, send more.


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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    If your fear is that the EU will kibosh any solution as unsatisfactory, why not request that the Brexiteers publish their plans for the technological solutions for peer review? Get them to test their solution by implementing it in a small but representative area, test its workability, and show its findings and costs. That's how all technological solutions work, with a blueprint, a prototype, and findings leading back into the feedback loop. The EU doesn't need to be involved at this stage, let alone any backstop. If the Brexiteers are so confident about their solution, they can go ahead and implement a prototype with plans for how to scale it up to full size. Why blame the EU without even taking the first steps that are entirely within your hands? Do you even want to practically break free from the EU, or are you only interested in blaming them for anything and everything whilst taking no responsibility on your side?
    The priority is to negotiate the treaty and get it passed. Then worry about the implementation during the transition period.

    Except it's now obvious there's unlikely to be a deal by October, so we need to be planning for the cliff-edge.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    Does anyone have any views on Farage's reported plans to engage in trade talks with the US administration?
    No.

    Quote Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name View Post
    Is Kerrygold from Republic of Ireland or Northern Ireland?

    If it's the former, I don't need anything from you lot. Otherwise, send more.
    It's from the Republic - showing the ease with which trade flows between the US and Europe without a deal.
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    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    Says the man whose Government has banned referendums lest its people backslide into Fascism.
    Where did you get that from? Some Brexit fake news website?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Referendums_in_Germany


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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    Where did you get that from? Some Brexit fake news website?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Referendums_in_Germany
    Actually, I believe it was something relating to how there couldn't have been a referendum on the EU Constitution in Germany.

    I stand corrected.

    However, this now raises the question of why the German people allow their sovereignty to be progressively stripped away without a peep.
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    Where did you get that from? Some Brexit fake news website?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Referendums_in_Germany
    You are not wrong, the Daily Mail.
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  19. #2779
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    However, this now raises the question of why the German people allow their sovereignty to be progressively stripped away without a peep.
    I have a completely different (world) view on sovereignty than you do.
    You obviously mean national sovereignty, but Germany was once >50 little sovereign nations, some of which did or did not elect a German king. Up to 1871 states like Bavaria and Saxony were their own sovereign nations, which also didn't want to give up their sovereignty to the "Saupreißn" as the Bavarians called them. So now it's not even 150 years and two world wars (in which Germany already got chipped quite a bit, depending on your POV, after all especially the eastern parts previously had other owners as well) and I'm supposed to see the current nation of Germany as the ultimate arbiter of sovereignty, even if I disagree with quite a lot of things in that nation?

    Tell me, why should I reject you, edyzmedieval, Beskar and many other people as my peers, but somehow celebrate some old geezer from Bavaria who doesn't share any of my values and does not even use the internet as my national peer who I feel so connected to? The fact is that I don't feel connected to him at all while my connection to you is quite obvious since we are at the very least communicating with one another here.

    It's not that I don't have any national pride at all, but even if we assume that Germany did ban referendums entirely, would I be forced to feel proud and patriotic about that even though I would disagree with it? Germany has 82 million people and the EU ~500 million, the difference in sovereignty on a purely democratic level is not really that big and I don't even have any friends in the village where I currently live, so why would I even want any sovereignty on that level? It's not like I feel the other villagers would agree with me anyway. So what's the sovereignty good for if my village votes against everything I want?

    And then there is another view on sovereignty entirely that bothers me a lot more. And that is when you enter corporations into the mix, especially large ones that directly talk to the national (or any smaller) government whenever they think about moving 5000 jobs abroad. This power to move jobs around, heavily influence unemployment statistics and investments etc. gives them enormous leverage and power. Additionally, job positions in our federal government and the car industry are often switched between by certain people (aka lobbyists), giving these industries further leverage in our law-making process that is undermining the choice of voters. So if you want sovereignty of voters, you want a more powerful government that doesn't have parties dependent on corporate money and decision-making. The EU is not ideal here, but closer to that ideal than pretty much any national government, it's also the only one that constantly penalizes big international corporations for unfair business practices.

    I don't see a world where the government hires private corporations to write laws and asks other corporations for permission to enact these laws as one where I have more sovereignty. The smaller the government (in terms of the market and territory it controls), the more likely it is that a big international corporation will have more power. For proof, just look at how the tobacco industry sued some small countries into submission so even children can smoke there. How is that for sovereignty in these countries? My country may not be there yet, but we're moving in that direction, the EU is a consolidation of power that can (if used correctly) counter this. That's why I see more potential sovereignty of the people in the EU than any national government.

    Competition between nations only leads down the path of more corporate power, Trump as a corporate president dfemonstrates that when he says a trade deal between the US and UK after Brexit will have to involve the UK changing its inner setup to accommodate US businesses. How does that in any way make the UK more sovereign? Yes, you can not make a deal, but then who will you trade with? Sovereignty isn't worth anything if power can bully you into submission or make your life miserable. Power is also in unity, as unions and industry organizations clearly show (it's funny in that regard how worker unions are frowned upon, but you never see a libertarian argue against capitalists having industry organizations where they coordinate for their own interests in the same way). Herd and pack animals use the same principles against their foes. The EU is such a union that has more power due to the unity of its members. Whether I disagree about politics with a Hungarian libertarian or a Saxon libertarian is relatively inconsequential to me in that regard.


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  20. #2780
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    The priority is to negotiate the treaty and get it passed. Then worry about the implementation during the transition period.

    Except it's now obvious there's unlikely to be a deal by October, so we need to be planning for the cliff-edge.
    How does prioritisation preclude Brexiteers from showing how their technological solution works? Different people would be working on preparing for Brexit at the Dover end, and preparing for it on the RoI-NI border. And even if you don't want to implement a prototype, what's stopping you from publishing the blueprint for that solution?

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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Thanks for a clearly expressed point Husar.

    I am, as you might well know by now, far more of a patriot in the traditional sense than are you.

    Nor do I presume that competition is inherently problematic. How it is managed and channeled, of course, matters a great deal. It is not a slippery slope to violence in all cases.

    Our President is probably the least sophisticated negotiator we have had in some time. Part of why his base support likes him so is that THIS is the kind of negotiation style they can understand -- even though most of them cannot do it well. Trump's repertoire includes virtually all of the tactics Fisher, Ury, and Patton label as "dirty tricks" that they coach negotiators how to maneuver around. Trump likes it to be all about willpower as he presumes he has more than anyone. THAT is the kind of competitive attitude that can yield bad things.

    I must disagree with you implied allusion that Trump is a pack animal. He differs significantly -- pack animals are actually loyal to their pack.
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  22. #2782

    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    Actually, I believe it was something relating to how there couldn't have been a referendum on the EU Constitution in Germany.

    I stand corrected.

    However, this now raises the question of why the German people allow their sovereignty to be progressively stripped away without a peep.
    Husar's post is a good primer on the existence of differing standards, but what it comes down to is that you disagree with the sovereignty traded to the EU and condone - or don't mind - the sovereignty traded to other multilateral bodies, treaties, or pacts, or even the basic political and economic framework of your "democracy". You just don't like the EU and like the other things, that's all. Sovereignty is your fig leaf for noses flying.

    I got around to dealing with the Telegraph paywall, Varoufakis merely thinks negotiating a comprehensive deal is more likely when both sides have the concrete burden or negative incentive of implementing No Deal, not that Hard Brexit is a good scenario; AFAIK he's been beating that drum for years. As he makes clear here and everywhere else, he is a "radical Remainer" personally and wants the Labour Party to adopt that stance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    Thanks for a clearly expressed point Husar.

    I am, as you might well know by now, far more of a patriot in the traditional sense than are you.

    Nor do I presume that competition is inherently problematic. How it is managed and channeled, of course, matters a great deal. It is not a slippery slope to violence in all cases.
    Sure, we can have some friendly competition, of the sort that exists in well-managed high school sports matches. Anything more, such as all of history up to now, is the recipe for destruction. As always.

    I must disagree with you implied allusion that Trump is a pack animal. He differs significantly -- pack animals are actually loyal to their pack.
    Husar is saying we should be more like pack animals.

    Edit: Although I'm not sure it's a great model for humans, since the pack mechanism in herbivores is to my knowledge one that is profligate with the lives and well-being of individuals to promote the survival of the collective. Doesn't sound great, and it probably doesn't sound great to you either, right Seamus?

    If you don't want a resort to Stalinist emergency response, advocate for less competition and more cooperation ASAP
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  23. #2783
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    Nor do I presume that competition is inherently problematic. How it is managed and channeled, of course, matters a great deal. It is not a slippery slope to violence in all cases.
    I don't believe that either, I was mainly talking about competition between governments. When governments compete for corporate jobs for example, then they cannot execute the will of the people in terms of e.g. corporate taxation. Especially if the country is small enough that a multinational corporation and investors can easily ignore it. In the end the country will have to do things that the majority of people don't really want (they vote for them anyway because they're blackmailed in the sense that they won't get jobs/business/investment otherwise), or live in the stone age. In the end, the democratic will is forcefully aligned with the will of corporate owners who own the means of production but are a tiny fraction of the population or even foreign individuals. The only ones exercising any sort of sovereignty here are the investors.
    Of course I'm aware that certain investment securities are important, it's not fun when you invest your entire family savings to start a medium-sized business in country X and then the government takes everything away, but on the other hand it shouldn't mean you now control the government of that country to the same extent as ~10,000 of its voters, i.e. have the same power. The latter is extremely anti-democratic in my opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    I must disagree with you implied allusion that Trump is a pack animal. He differs significantly -- pack animals are actually loyal to their pack.
    I didn't want to imply that in any way, except perhaps if he is in some "US association of real estate investors" or similarly named lobbying group to extend his influence on politics before he became president. That doesn't make him a herd animal as much as he is using the advantages of a herd for his own personal benefit. Then again that's the case in quite a few herds, group protection can easily be sold on a selfish level. Vaccination provides herd protection, but most people probably primarily get it so they don't die themselves.
    Being part of a herd and being selfish are not mutually exclusive, especially if you can convince a significant part of the herd that you're also selfish on their selfish behalf.


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  24. #2784
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    I don't believe that either, I was mainly talking about competition between governments. When governments compete for corporate jobs for example, then they cannot execute the will of the people in terms of e.g. corporate taxation. Especially if the country is small enough that a multinational corporation and investors can easily ignore it. In the end the country will have to do things that the majority of people don't really want (they vote for them anyway because they're blackmailed in the sense that they won't get jobs/business/investment otherwise), or live in the stone age. In the end, the democratic will is forcefully aligned with the will of corporate owners who own the means of production but are a tiny fraction of the population or even foreign individuals. The only ones exercising any sort of sovereignty here are the investors.
    Of course I'm aware that certain investment securities are important, it's not fun when you invest your entire family savings to start a medium-sized business in country X and then the government takes everything away, but on the other hand it shouldn't mean you now control the government of that country to the same extent as ~10,000 of its voters, i.e. have the same power. The latter is extremely anti-democratic in my opinion.



    I didn't want to imply that in any way, except perhaps if he is in some "US association of real estate investors" or similarly named lobbying group to extend his influence on politics before he became president. That doesn't make him a herd animal as much as he is using the advantages of a herd for his own personal benefit. Then again that's the case in quite a few herds, group protection can easily be sold on a selfish level. Vaccination provides herd protection, but most people probably primarily get it so they don't die themselves.
    Being part of a herd and being selfish are not mutually exclusive, especially if you can convince a significant part of the herd that you're also selfish on their selfish behalf.
    Been watching Trump play that "man of the people/outsider like you" card successfully since 2015. I just don't get it -- how naïve can you be? Using "blue" language in a campaign rally and always coming back aggressively at any perceived slight does not make you a salt of the earth type. Yet they love it from him. [shaking head].
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken

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  25. #2785
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Husar, there is another aspect of sovereignty that was taken for granted in the past, in the era of moderate politics, but which is now abused to destruction by Brexit, Corbyn, Trump, and other manifestations of extremism. That is constitutionality. The formal and informal rules that everyone worked by, because if people stepped outside these bounds whilst observing legalities, society would no longer work. I defined moderate politics earlier in this thread as politics that observes customs and respects the losing side, whereas extremism is whatever it can get away with.

    Let's take the example of Brexit, as personified (and personification is a common aspect of this) by Nigel Farage. UK democracy is based on governments formed by parties elected on manifestos that the opposition and the press can hold them to. If there is abuse of the electoral system, the candidate who abused the system is disqualified and another election held in the area. Compare with Leave, who made promises that their supporters now claim they should not be held to, who use their referendum victory to claim a mandate for things that they assured the electorate would not happen, and who abused the legalities and customs of normal electoral process yet, because the referendum was supposedly merely advisory, are not subject to the checks of normal electoral process. In the face of this, there is another, equally democratically valid check, that of Parliament. But even here, the organisers of Leave identified that Parliamentary authority is merely custom, and not legal, and despite the flagrant disregard of democratic authority this represented, ignored Parliament's requests to answer their questions.

    And what has happened since the Leave victory in the referendum? The architects of Leave, Farage and his close associates in particular, have kept clear of those trying to implement it. Instead, they keep making nebulous claims whilst saying that it is the fault of others that things are not working, culminating in Farage's new Brexit party getting a third of the vote whilst explicitly saying that they do not have a manifesto. In addition to this absence of constructive plans or identity other than opposition, they have also encouraged a culture of seeing divergence from them as treason, and the identification of their ill-defined cause with a personality.

    In the UK, Brexit has polarised the country. Politics is no longer the constructive debate of ideas, tested for their workability. It is now whatever whoever gets a momentary backing of a majority can legally get away with. And the tragedy is that there are actually mechanics to correct this. But the Left have themselves enacted a form of the above, which albeit is less extreme than that enacted by Brexiteers, is nonetheless equally uncorrectable within traditional means.

  26. #2786
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    Been watching Trump play that "man of the people/outsider like you" card successfully since 2015. I just don't get it -- how naïve can you be? Using "blue" language in a campaign rally and always coming back aggressively at any perceived slight does not make you a salt of the earth type. Yet they love it from him. [shaking head].
    It can be equally puzzling. People despise David Cameron for being a representative of the establishment, given his social background. Yet they love Boris Johnson for being a man of the people, despite having the exact same background as Cameron.

  27. #2787

    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    I don't believe that either, I was mainly talking about competition between governments. When governments compete for corporate jobs for example, then they cannot execute the will of the people in terms of e.g. corporate taxation. Especially if the country is small enough that a multinational corporation and investors can easily ignore it. In the end the country will have to do things that the majority of people don't really want (they vote for them anyway because they're blackmailed in the sense that they won't get jobs/business/investment otherwise), or live in the stone age. In the end, the democratic will is forcefully aligned with the will of corporate owners who own the means of production but are a tiny fraction of the population or even foreign individuals. The only ones exercising any sort of sovereignty here are the investors.
    Of course I'm aware that certain investment securities are important, it's not fun when you invest your entire family savings to start a medium-sized business in country X and then the government takes everything away, but on the other hand it shouldn't mean you now control the government of that country to the same extent as ~10,000 of its voters, i.e. have the same power. The latter is extremely anti-democratic in my opinion.
    You could frame it in terms of the conflict between the ideas of contemporaries Karl Polanyi (socialism) and Friedrich Hayek (neoliberalism). Hayek believed that economics is the locus of public morality and therefore politics, so the polity ought to negotiate its pluralistic values in the sphere of the consumer market. The market therefore arbitrates social costs and goods. Polanyi believed something the opposite, that while economic materiality is central to modern life individuals participating in collective political decision-making should negotiate the priorities and parameters of market or any economic activity. Political planning therefore arbitrates social costs and goods.

    Hayek's ideas put us on the road to serfdom as the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. The socialistic ideas are necessary for our survival but are hindered by the lack of any large-scale (i.e. millions of actors) model for democratic collectives. Switzerland doesn't count, the Swiss are not to my knowledge directly responsible for economic management as political actors. Let alone global...

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    By the mid-1930s, Hayek believed his beleaguered band of brothers—Ludwig von Mises, Lionel Robbins, and others—had won the economic debate of socialism versus capitalism. They had demonstrated—not just once (in Red Vienna after the First World War), but twice (in 1930s Britain)—that it was not possible for socialist planners to gather and process the necessary information to anticipate and provide for the needs of a modern society without private property, the price mechanism, and other market institutions.

    But that victory, Hayek came to realize, was pyrrhic. For the questions at stake weren’t just technical; they were moral and political. As he put it in a pioneering article from 1939:

    [The] belief in the greater efficiency of a planned economy cannot any longer be defended on economic grounds. . . . But it can rightly be said that this is not the decisive question. Many planners would be willing to put up with a considerable decrease of efficiency if at that price greater distributive justice could be achieved. And this, indeed, brings us to the crucial question. The ultimate decision for and against socialism cannot rest on purely economic grounds, and cannot be based merely on the determination of whether a greater or smaller output of society is likely to be obtained under the alternative systems in question. The aims of socialism as well as the costs of its achievement are mainly in the moral sphere. The conflict of ideals is one of ideals other than merely material welfare. . . . it is on considerations like those discussed here that we shall have to base our final choice.
    Far from resting neoliberalism on the authority of the natural sciences or mathematics (forms of inquiry Hayek and Mises sought to distance their work from) or on the technical knowledge of economists (as Naidu and his co-authors claim), Hayek recognized that the argument for capitalism had to be won on moral and political grounds through the political arts of persuasion.

    Here’s where things get interesting. Though Hayek famously abandoned formal economics for social theory after the 1930s, his social theory remained dedicated to elaborating what he saw as the essential problem of economics: how to allocate finite resources between different purposes when society cannot agree on its most basic ends. With its emphasis on the irreconcilability of our moral ends—the fact that members of a modern society do not and cannot agree on a scale of values— Hayek’s point was fundamentally political, the sort of insight that has agitated everyone from Thomas Hobbes to John Rawls and Jürgen Habermas. Hayek was unique, however, in arguing that the political point was best addressed, indeed could only be addressed, in the realm of the economic. No other discourse—not moral philosophy, political theory, psychology, or theology—understood so well that our ultimate moral values and political purposes get expressed to others and revealed to ourselves only under conditions of radical economic constraint—when one is forced to assign a limited set of resources to different ends, ends that favor different sectors of society.

    Morals are not really morals if they are not material, Hayek believed. Outside the constraining circumstance of the economy, our moral claims are so much wind. Inside the economy, they assume force and depth, achieving a revelatory clarity and profundity. “The sphere where material circumstances force a choice upon us,” Hayek wrote in The Road to Serfdom (1944), “is the air in which alone moral sense grows and in which moral values are daily re-created [emphasis added].” It is for that reason, Hayek concluded in that 1939 article, that “economic life is not a sector of human life which can be separated from” other spheres of life, including our moral life. Economic life “is the administration of the means for all our different ends. Whoever takes charge of these means must determine which ends shall be served, which values are to be rated higher and which lower—in short, what men should believe and strive for.”

    The intrinsic links between moral and economic life as well as the intractability of moral conflict, the incommensurability of our moral views, were the kernels of insight that animated Hayek’s most far-reaching writing against socialism. The socialist presumes an agreement on ultimate ends: the putatively shared understanding of principles such as justice or equality is supposed to make it possible for state planners to conceive of their task as technical, as the neutral application of an agreed upon rule. But no such agreement exists, Hayek insisted, and if it is presumed to exist, nothing will reveal its non-existence more quickly than the attempt to implement it in practice, in the distribution of finite resources toward whatever end has been agreed upon.

    Now we come back to Naidu, Rodrik, and Zucman. What strikes me about their text is its boldness at the level of policy, but its modesty at the level of public philosophy. That may be deliberate. But if it is, it may reinforce the very neoliberalism that it is meant to contest, insofar as it presumes that what the economist has to offer is neutral or technical authority on behalf of assumed moral ends such as justice or equality or inclusiveness—values for which we don’t have shared definitions. That was precisely the claim that Hayek sought to refute, and I’m not sure if Naidu and his co-authors have a response. Conversely, I fear that if they continue the course they have set on, showing that alternative policies are technically feasible, they may find themselves foundering on the same shoals as Hayek did before his turn to social theory: invoking economic knowledge when the field of play is in fact moral and political.

    Hayek translated moral and political problems into an economic idiom. What we need now, I would argue, is a way to uninstall or reverse that translation.

    Karl Marx attempted just such a project, but his answers were notoriously elusive. In a fascinating, but little-known 1927 essay, “On Freedom,” Karl Polanyi also attempted such a project, giving us a stylized rendition of what it would mean for a political collective, rather than a firm or a consumer, to make an economic decision—not in the marketplace, where price helps determine our decisions, but in a deliberative assembly, where other considerations are at play. One part of the assembly, representing the interests of the collective, will want to make an investment in a long-term good; healthcare was the example Polanyi chose. Another part of the assembly, representing the workers who would have to make the specific sacrifices for that good, resists that decision. What to do? Argue it out, says Polanyi. Whatever is the final decision, it will be:

    a direct, internal choice, for here ideals within people are confronted with their costs; here everyone has to decide what his ideals are worth to him. No state and no market intervene between the two sides of our consciousness; here there can be no shifting of responsibility, and nothing outside of ourselves can be made responsible for our fate. The individual only confronts himself because his fate is in his own hands [emphasis added].
    Notice that Polanyi doesn’t presume any agreement about moral and political ends, as Hayek claimed socialists must. Notice how insistent he is that decisions about production must confront the question of costs. Like Hayek, Polanyi is attuned to the materiality of moral choice, only he believes the question of costs and constraints is best mediated through moral and political arguments in the public square.

    Hayek persuaded generations of elites that it is only the individual in the market who can engage in such a process. In a modern society, with a plurality of ends and purposes, the combination of informational challenges, on the one hand, and the intractability of moral conflict, on the other, was seen as too great to make decisions about economic life through public deliberation. Like an earlier generation of leftists from the early twentieth century, Naidu and his co-authors have an opportunity to reopen this question not just for elites (Hayek’s preferred audience) but for society as a whole: to ask whether it should be a political collective rather than the market that makes decisions about social value.

    Polanyi thought that nothing less than human freedom was at stake in how we answer that question. Hayek, coming from the opposite end of the spectrum, did as well. Maybe it’s time for us to ask why and start talking about it again.


    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    Been watching Trump play that "man of the people/outsider like you" card successfully since 2015. I just don't get it -- how naïve can you be? Using "blue" language in a campaign rally and always coming back aggressively at any perceived slight does not make you a salt of the earth type. Yet they love it from him. [shaking head].
    The cruelty is the point.

    I'm not saying Thompson has the number, but that she has a solid approach. We know that most Trump supporters know that he lies to them, and that they don't care. Vice can be virtue if embodied in a friend, or vice versa. This is rational if you assume they vest their whole identity and worldview in a strong-coded authority figure who they feel can destroy their perceived enemies. The irrational part is that the gestures and the performance of "owning the libs" hold more weight with them than the results.* I suggest a hypothetical fascist dictator who enslaved or eliminated all the leftists and minorities while raising the living standards of his stakeholder groups could not draw as much support as a failure in these regards, IF the successful one did it quietly and unceremoniously.

    I'm pretty sure Hannah Arendt wrote a lot about this, the theater of totalitarianism. See also:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    (2) A particularly interesting form of scripted reality is professional wrestling — a massively popular pseudo-sport, in which what is presented as athletic competition is actually, as Andre the Giant once put it, an Aristotelian mimesis masquerading as something else.

    The mental state of the pro wrestling audience is a weird (to an outsider at least) mixture of the psychology of sports fans with that found in a theater: a kind of doubled or meta suspension of disbelief, in which the audience both believes and does not believe what it is witnessing is “real” outside the confines of the mimetic script.

    (3) Politics and in particular political journalism have been infected by these various hybrid performance genres. Political conflict has long been reported as if it were a traditional athletic contest, in which the entire significance of the event is reduced to its competitive outcome (aka horse race coverage), or conversely as if it were a mimetic performance, judged in essentially aesthetic terms (aka theater criticism).

    But the contemporary American political climate is marked by an increasing psychological hybridization, in which the mental states associated with reality television and scripted reality — that is, genres in which it what is “real” is presented in a deceptive and/or ambiguous way to the audience — become increasingly commonplace. (ETA: Nick never Nick in comments: “Another thing that should be included here is the blurring of comedy and news. The Daily Show and its numerous spin-offs and imitators have changed news consumption into something very different from what it used to be — they combine shows like Kids in the Hall with Walter Cronkite; and they have an amplifier in Facebook and Twitter.”)

    (4) Exhibit A of all this is of course the career of Donald Trump — a man whose supposed competitive successes in the quasi-sport of Who Wants to Be a Plutocrat were actually pure scripted reality, as opposed to what used to be known as reality simpliciter. Indeed Trump’s political career resembles nothing so much as the classic trajectory of of the dramatically fascinating yet morally repulsive heavy in a crime melodrama — think Ralphie Ciffareto rather than Vito Corleone — or the “heel” of in a long-running wrestling character script. (In regard to the latter identity, Trump is clearly living the gimmick).

    Trump is an almost literally cartoonish, melodramatic character, whose political success is only possible in a decadent political culture, within which politics has come to be treated as some sort of particularly baroque reality television show by both a large portion of the audience, and by the journalist-critics who help create and maintain that culture. It’s a culture in which the catharsis offered by schadenfreude becomes the prime aesthetic-political value, and which kidding on the square — joking but also meaning it — becomes as epidemic as it is on a pro wrestling internet discussion forum, or 4chan.


    *This is not to say there haven't been results to witness. Those wishing to see the government put the hurt on Mexicans and queers have a lo to like so far this term.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    In the UK, Brexit has polarised the country. Politics is no longer the constructive debate of ideas, tested for their workability. It is now whatever whoever gets a momentary backing of a majority can legally get away with. And the tragedy is that there are actually mechanics to correct this. But the Left have themselves enacted a form of the above, which albeit is less extreme than that enacted by Brexiteers, is nonetheless equally uncorrectable within traditional means.
    Maybe you need new traditional means? The ideal you hew to was never really how the world (or even the UK for more than a few decades, I'd venture) worked. You've called yourself a socialist, right? You should have a historically-rooted notion why "moderation" has not been long for this world. The times are polarized. What are you gonna do about it?
    Vitiate Man.

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    The glib replies, the same defeats


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  28. #2788
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    Maybe you need new traditional means? The ideal you hew to was never really how the world (or even the UK for more than a few decades, I'd venture) worked. You've called yourself a socialist, right? You should have a historically-rooted notion why "moderation" has not been long for this world. The times are polarized. What are you gonna do about it?
    What I call moderation has been how UK politics has worked for centuries, since Parliament took over from the monarchy. Stability based on respect for the collective customs of government, with changes brought in to address issues, framed in those traditions. There might even be an argument that it goes back to English/Anglo-Saxon Common Law, with protections established under the Magna Carta and reaffirmed in the Civil War. What we have now is akin to the absolute monarchy, except it's the far right under the guise of a People's Mandate. Like the absolute monarchy, Brexit is not based on constitutionalism or custom, but is an absolute right based on what it can do without being stopped.

    What am I going to do about it? What do you suggest? Armed uprising? That's not for me, nor for most Brits. The Loyal Opposition should be opposing the government and forcing it to test its plans against reality, but instead it's collaborating, and as IA and others have illustrated here, even that is not enough, and IA and his ilk regard Parliament as traitors. Since the Loyal Opposition are not doing their job, I'm voting at every opportunity for openly pro-Remain candidates. If this means a united far right gets a plurality; the collaborationist opposition, and the willingness of Brexiters to interpret the opposition as support for their cause (see PFH) leaves little alternative. I expect hard Brexit to go through courtesy of Farage and his kind and their influence on a Parliament where they have not been elected. At the very least I will remind Brexiteers of their responsibility for what Britain will become.

  29. #2789

    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    What I call moderation has been how UK politics has worked for centuries, since Parliament took over from the monarchy. Stability based on respect for the collective customs of government, with changes brought in to address issues, framed in those traditions. There might even be an argument that it goes back to English/Anglo-Saxon Common Law, with protections established under the Magna Carta and reaffirmed in the Civil War. What we have now is akin to the absolute monarchy, except it's the far right under the guise of a People's Mandate. Like the absolute monarchy, Brexit is not based on constitutionalism or custom, but is an absolute right based on what it can do without being stopped.
    Identifying moderation with the British deep constitutional superstructure itself is - I'm not even sure what the metonymy is supposed to be. The volatile history of the British Isles before the Union to time immemorial certainly doesn't resemble your definition of

    politics that observes customs and respects the losing side, whereas extremism is whatever it can get away with.
    And while Parliament was a gentlemanly establishment at least in the class sense during the 18th and 19th centuries, the politics of the street was no such thing. An anarchist might cynically say that the state always does "whatever it can get away with", but the relationship of government to subjects was much less one of moderation (of coercion) and respect for liberty than it has been in living memory. Whatever specific traditions you favor, I doubt you can show them to be very ancient, stable, or even functional today.

    What am I going to do about it? What do you suggest? Armed uprising? That's not for me, nor for most Brits.
    By no means. But insofar as you value a certain status quo and this no longer obtains, and cannot be restored, declamations alone aren't worth much. Maybe I'm premature, but it seems like a new and improved arrangement needs to be advanced. Or if you believe the politics of your veneration is still extant or still to be salvaged, first consider why it was so easily and quickly subverted by a little extremism.
    Last edited by Montmorency; 06-07-2019 at 02:29.
    Vitiate Man.

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    The glib replies, the same defeats


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  30. #2790
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    Identifying moderation with the British deep constitutional superstructure itself is - I'm not even sure what the metonymy is supposed to be. The volatile history of the British Isles before the Union to time immemorial certainly doesn't resemble your definition of

    And while Parliament was a gentlemanly establishment at least in the class sense during the 18th and 19th centuries, the politics of the street was no such thing. An anarchist might cynically say that the state always does "whatever it can get away with", but the relationship of government to subjects was much less one of moderation (of coercion) and respect for liberty than it has been in living memory. Whatever specific traditions you favor, I doubt you can show them to be very ancient, stable, or even functional today.

    By no means. But insofar as you value a certain status quo and this no longer obtains, and cannot be restored, declamations alone aren't worth much. Maybe I'm premature, but it seems like a new and improved arrangement needs to be advanced. Or if you believe the politics of your veneration is still extant or still to be salvaged, first consider why it was so easily and quickly subverted by a little extremism.
    What is this historically revolutionary Britain that you seem to have in mind? Can you cite examples of what you mean?

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