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Thread: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

  1. #2911
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    every thing you quote there demonstrates that you are part of the problem.

    those things may be:
    bigoted
    xenophobic
    downright rude
    they my even be 'culturalist'

    but you're stretching any useful definition of the term racism:
    "The belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races."

    call him those other things, but don't devalue the sanction that should rightly apply to actual real racism!

    and no:
    "I just feel sorry for the family of Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe, as he effectively dug her coffin and threw her in due to his remarks."

    it is the iranian state that is doing that.
    Last edited by Furunculus; 06-25-2019 at 22:30.
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  2. #2912
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    If you want to nitpick, then let's go full Father Ted and call Boris Johnson a gobshite. I defy you to defend him from any definition of that word.

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    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    every thing you quote there demonstrates that you are part of the problem.
    I don't see the problem I am apparently apart of. You are effectively trying to reduce the definition of racism to an statement in such a way it can only be eligible in a set of very specific circumstances outside common and shared conceptualisation of the term. Given I quoted the Oxford Dictionary definition in my own post, many of the quoted statements meet that definition and point to a larger picture of that attitude.

    Definition doesn't need to be restricted to those who are a card-carrying member of the Klu Klux Klan, proudly announcing your allegiance to the White Master Race to be eligible.

    However, I will comply with your request, I have retracted my remarks (see edits) as per Pannonian's suggestion. I hope this meets your approval.

    and no:
    "I just feel sorry for the family of Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe, as he effectively dug her coffin and threw her in due to his remarks."

    it is the iranian state that is doing that.
    Sure. But throwing fuel on the fire doesn't help matters at all. Made things even worse... ... ... as Foreign Secretary. You know, dangerously and recklessly incompetent at doing his job.
    Last edited by Beskar; 06-26-2019 at 00:31.
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  4. #2914
    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    I assume that this is this: Prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.

    From his public track record, we do have the following:
    Referring to black commonwealth citizens as "regular cheering crowds of flag-waving piccaninnies", with "the tribal warriors… [who] all break out in watermelon smiles".
    Papua New Guinea and their “orgies of cannibalism and chief-killing”.
    On the topic about Libya being the next Dubai - "The only thing they’ve got to do is clear the dead bodies away and then we’ll be there."
    Called the Continent of Africa as "That country".
    Dismissed Barack Obama's views due to “part-Kenyan President’s ancestral dislike of the British empire”
    Praising alcohol at a Sikh temple.
    Reciting a colonial-era poem in Myanmar which went down like a lead balloon.
    Women in Burka's as Letter Boxes and Bank Robbers.

    Then there is also the company he keeps, such as the like of Steve Bannon who believes people such wear the term 'Racist' as a medal. The people who do classify him as racist are his fellow MPs, in other parties and some even in his own.

    However, @Philippus Flavius Homovallumus is right. "Boris Johnson is pretty offensive overall."

    His track record on Homophobia and other issues are terrible too.

    I just feel sorry for the family of Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe, as he effectively dug her coffin and threw her in due to his remarks.
    You do realise Sikhs can drink alcohol, right?
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."

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    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    You do realise Sikhs can drink alcohol, right?
    It is prohibited. It falls under the general Intoxication prohibition ?

    I even doubted myself and googled to make sure. Every single link confirmed this. Whilst there are references to cultural Drinking Problems, to quote from that article:
    A new survey, commissioned by the BBC to investigate attitudes to alcohol among British Sikhs, found that - although drinking alcohol is forbidden in Sikhism - 27% of British Sikhs report having someone in their family with an alcohol problem. It's a problem which is rarely talked about openly in the community.
    ...those who practice, should not be drinking alcohol.
    Last edited by Beskar; 06-26-2019 at 01:51.
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    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    I assume that this is this: Prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.

    From his public track record, we do have the following:
    Referring to black commonwealth citizens as "regular cheering crowds of flag-waving piccaninnies", with "the tribal warriors… [who] all break out in watermelon smiles".
    Papua New Guinea and their “orgies of cannibalism and chief-killing”.
    On the topic about Libya being the next Dubai - "The only thing they’ve got to do is clear the dead bodies away and then we’ll be there."
    Called the Continent of Africa as "That country".
    Dismissed Barack Obama's views due to “part-Kenyan President’s ancestral dislike of the British empire”
    Praising alcohol at a Sikh temple.
    Reciting a colonial-era poem in Myanmar which went down like a lead balloon.
    Women in Burka's as Letter Boxes and Bank Robbers.

    Then there is also the company he keeps, such as the like of Steve Bannon who believes people such wear the term 'Racist' as a medal. The people who do classify him as racist are his fellow MPs, in other parties and some even in his own.

    However, @Philippus Flavius Homovallumus is right. "Boris Johnson is pretty offensive overall."

    His track record on Homophobia and other issues are terrible too.

    I just feel sorry for the family of Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe, as he effectively dug her coffin and threw her in due to his remarks.
    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    It is prohibited. It falls under the general Intoxication prohibition ?

    I even doubted myself and googled to make sure. Every single link confirmed this. Whilst there are references to cultural Drinking Problems, to quote from that article:

    ...those who practice, should not be drinking alcohol.
    Ehhh...

    You are correct about the alcoholism but I do not believe there is actually a general prohibition on alcohol, although opinion on that seems to have changed in the last decade or so.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."

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    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    Ehhh...

    You are correct about the alcoholism but I do not believe there is actually a general prohibition on alcohol, although opinion on that seems to have changed in the last decade or so.
    The Guru Granth Sahib forbids drinking alcohol. The Guru says:
    "Drinking wine, his intelligence departs, and madness enters his mind;" "He cannot distinguish between his own and others," "He is struck down by his Lord and Master" (SGGS p554)
    "Those who are deluded by sensual pleasures, are tempted by sexual delights and enjoy wine are corrupt." (SGGS p335)
    "Even if wine is made from the water of the Ganges, O Saints, do not drink it." (SGGS p1293)
    "Kabeer, those mortals who consume marijuana, fish and wine - no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell." (SGGS p1377)
    Last edited by Beskar; 06-26-2019 at 04:07.
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  8. #2918
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    I don't see the problem I am apparently apart of.
    The problem you are part of is one of all-out-war; everyone who disagrees with you is not only wrong or misguided, but actually evidencing evil intent that justifies all possible means to diminish, discredit, and marginalise.

    Essential reading for all engaged in politics:

    1. Jonathan Haidt - The Coddling of the American Mind
    2. Yascha Mounk - https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...-other/592324/
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    You are effectively trying to reduce the definition of racism to an statement in such a way it can only be eligible in a set of very specific circumstances outside common and shared conceptualisation of the term.

    Given I quoted the Oxford Dictionary definition in my own post, many of the quoted statements meet that definition and point to a larger picture of that attitude.
    No, I'm trying to keep the term meaningful. Right now, in modern political discourse I feel like branding someone with the term "racist" has zero impact on my opinion of them because I know it will be utterly without value. Hell, i'd have no problem being branded as racist myself as even the briefest moment of self-reflection would reveal it to be baseless nonsense.

    No. Not a single one of those statements is racist. Pick another word, we're lucky to have quite a few that better fit and I even gave you a head start. p.s. we're both using the same definition, you have just chosen to focus on the first part and myself on the latter.
    Last edited by Furunculus; 06-26-2019 at 11:48.
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

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    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    The problem you are part of is one of all-out-war; everyone who disagrees with you is not only wrong or misguided, but actually evidencing evil intent that justifies all possible means to diminish, discredit, and marginalise.
    When have I ever suggested you are evil, Furunculus? Or even seen you as a threat against humanity who needs to get rid of? You know I don't see you that way. Sure, I think you have differing values, but that is merely truth, you do.

    You are jumping the gun quite a lot.

    Now you are going to say something about how I dislike Boris, Trump and Nigel ( I am not a fan of Corbyn either ). But maybe, just maybe it is actually about those specific people than simply because they are my "opposite"? The fact they are such vile destestable incompetent cockwombles. (Sure, I would prefer Boris over Trump and Nigel, there is a heirachy here.)

    You can pick someone like John McCain who is on the right and I can tell you thought I disagreed with some of his views, he was an upstanding and honourable person. I said Theresa May was incompontent citing her home office record but I hoped she would turn out to be somewhat decent and handle the brexit mess appropriately (she didn't) and never once accused her of being a racist or anything similar. What about David Cameron? I never did there even and I thought he was a better choice than Gordon Brown.

    Also I did pick another word. I rather like this one.
    Last edited by Beskar; 06-26-2019 at 11:45.
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  11. #2921
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    When have I ever suggested you are evil, Furunculus? Or even seen you as a threat against humanity who needs to get rid of? You know I don't see you that way. Sure, I think you have differing values, but that is merely truth, you do.

    You are jumping the gun quite a lot.
    i'm not talking about me, i'm talking about the relentless attack profile you present against boris.
    your war is total, justified by the 'evil' he represents.
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

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    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    i'm not talking about me, i'm talking about the relentless attack profile you present against boris.
    your war is total, justified by the 'evil' he represents.
    Good thing I am on a total war website then.

    So, I am not allowed to be against a vile incompetent buffoon who's only redeeming feature was the pleasure I had laughing at him on HIGNFY...? Or that time he got stuck on the Zip-line, that was pretty amusing too.

    You are presenting a weird argument, Furunculus. Doesn't help when you keep moving the goalposts too.
    Last edited by Beskar; 06-26-2019 at 12:13.
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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    seriously, read the articles/books. rethink.

    moving the goalposts how?
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    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    moving the goalposts how?
    Initially, your argument was with use the term 'racist' as being part of the problem, which I met by changing the word.
    You then change it to 'Everyone who disagrees with you...', which I reply I don't and cite examples. Which I assume you accept because you state it is not about you, even though we disagree, so it is not everyone.
    Then you change it to 'relentless attack profile against Boris...'.

    You haven't tried to counter the evidence such as his widely regarded incompetence as foreign secretary. You agree that he is 'bigoted' in your own posts... so your argument is now 'You attack Boris' and what is one meant to do with that?

    I.. oppose Boris and find him as being a poor choice for prime minister, because he is, based on his incompetence and track record of various remarks. I feel justified in my opinion in my opposing him on these facts. I accept this point.

    Are we satisfied?
    Last edited by Beskar; 06-26-2019 at 12:48.
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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    sure.
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

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    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    sure.
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    If you want to nitpick, then let's go full Father Ted and call Boris Johnson a gobshite. I defy you to defend him from any definition of that word.
    LOL I can live with that. Here's Boris a bit older....

    There are times I wish they’d just ban everything- baccy and beer, burgers and bangers, and all the rest- once and for all. Instead, they creep forward one apparently tiny step at a time. It’s like being executed with a bacon slicer.

    “Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedy.”

    To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticise.

    "The purpose of a university education for Left / Liberals is to attain all the politically correct attitudes towards minorties, and the financial means to live as far away from them as possible."

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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    The problem you are part of is one of all-out-war; everyone who disagrees with you is not only wrong or misguided, but actually evidencing evil intent that justifies all possible means to diminish, discredit, and marginalise.

    Essential reading for all engaged in politics:

    1. Jonathan Haidt - The Coddling of the American Mind
    2. Yascha Mounk - https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...-other/592324/
    You forgot Thomas Sowell.
    There are times I wish they’d just ban everything- baccy and beer, burgers and bangers, and all the rest- once and for all. Instead, they creep forward one apparently tiny step at a time. It’s like being executed with a bacon slicer.

    “Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedy.”

    To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticise.

    "The purpose of a university education for Left / Liberals is to attain all the politically correct attitudes towards minorties, and the financial means to live as far away from them as possible."

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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Is he the dude spouting wisdom on twitter? if yes i tend to agree with what he says.

    apols, on a one bar 2g connection in the middle of rural poland, so connectivity is limited.
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

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    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    One of the last times I looked on Twitter, Nigel posted a letter suspposed to have been written by a 10 year old (which clearly isn't).
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    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    The Guru Granth Sahib forbids drinking alcohol. The Guru says:
    "Drinking wine, his intelligence departs, and madness enters his mind;" "He cannot distinguish between his own and others," "He is struck down by his Lord and Master" (SGGS p554)
    "Those who are deluded by sensual pleasures, are tempted by sexual delights and enjoy wine are corrupt." (SGGS p335)
    "Even if wine is made from the water of the Ganges, O Saints, do not drink it." (SGGS p1293)
    "Kabeer, those mortals who consume marijuana, fish and wine - no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell." (SGGS p1377)
    Well, that just goes to show you the lies they reach you in RE to make you think all religions are basically the same, doesn't it?
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."

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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    One of the last times I looked on Twitter, Nigel posted a letter suspposed to have been written by a 10 year old (which clearly isn't).
    may i trouble you for the context of this post?
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

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    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    may i trouble you for the context of this post?
    Sorry, it was a random tangent from your mentioning of twitter. But if you mean specifically what I was referring to about a letter, here are some of the news articles related to it.
    Independent, Mirror, Metro, Mail (pick your poison)
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    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    Well, that just goes to show you the lies they reach you in RE to make you think all religions are basically the same, doesn't it?
    Sure, I agree with that statement. It would strengthen the concept of universal truth if they were. Same hymn-sheet, etc.

    Though, Methodists and it's various spin-offs such as the Salvation Army share similar views when it comes to intoxication and alcohol. Though I believe Methodists have relaxed their stance on it.
    Last edited by Beskar; 06-26-2019 at 18:45.
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    I assume that this is this: Prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.

    From his public track record, we do have the following:
    Referring to black commonwealth citizens as "regular cheering crowds of flag-waving piccaninnies", with "the tribal warriors… [who] all break out in watermelon smiles".
    Papua New Guinea and their “orgies of cannibalism and chief-killing”.
    On the topic about Libya being the next Dubai - "The only thing they’ve got to do is clear the dead bodies away and then we’ll be there."
    Called the Continent of Africa as "That country".
    Dismissed Barack Obama's views due to “part-Kenyan President’s ancestral dislike of the British empire”
    Praising alcohol at a Sikh temple.
    Reciting a colonial-era poem in Myanmar which went down like a lead balloon.
    Women in Burka's as Letter Boxes and Bank Robbers.

    Then there is also the company he keeps, such as the like of Steve Bannon who believes people such wear the term 'Racist' as a medal. The people who do classify him as racist are his fellow MPs, in other parties and some even in his own.

    However, @Philippus Flavius Homovallumus is right. "Boris Johnson is pretty offensive overall."

    His track record on Homophobia and other issues are terrible too.

    I just feel sorry for the family of Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe, as he effectively dug her coffin and threw her in due to his remarks.
    And here I was, wondering what Trump saw to like in this particular Tory when compared to the rest. Now I know it is that they share the same measured and reasoned communication style.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

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  26. #2936
    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    Sure, I agree with that statement. It would strengthen the concept of universal truth if they were. Same hymn-sheet, etc.

    Though, Methodists and it's various spin-offs such as the Salvation Army share similar views when it comes to intoxication and alcohol. Though I believe Methodists have relaxed their stance on it.
    If they were all the same and all got on I'd assume they were all lying.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."

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  27. #2937
    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    If they were all the same and all got on I'd assume they were all lying.
    Off-topic.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Interesting. Why so?

    I know technically off-topic, but I am curious as to why this is to you. Doesn't it significantly weaken the concept divine truth when there are many and contradictory ones?
    Sciencific method has the self-recognisation of imperfection in attempting to find answers and constantly changes and adapts. So you can be plausibly 'wrong' and it doesnt discredit the process.

    But divine truth is different in that it is the right/correct way, always, in many religions. If it is wrong, it essentially establishes a new religion. Now you have a bunch of different ones all saying different things. So which is the right one? It would really suck if you spent your entire life as a Catholic to reincarnate as a gnat at the end of it. At least with broad consistently you know you may be half-way right.
    Last edited by Beskar; 06-30-2019 at 20:50.
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  28. #2938
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy Hunt, PM candidate
    “At the beginning of October, if there is no prospect of a deal that can get through parliament, then I will leave at the end of October because that is our democratic promise to the British people,” Hunt told BBC One’s The Andrew Marr Show.

    Asked whether, under such a policy, he would be willing to look the owners of family businesses in the eye and say they should be prepared to see their companies go bust to ensure a no-deal Brexit, Hunt said: “I would do so but I’d do it with a heavy heart precisely because of the risks.”

    Asked how he would explain this rationale, Hunt said he would tell business owners that a no-deal Brexit was necessary to maintain the UK’s image abroad as “a country where politicians do what the people tell them to do”.
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics...t-was-worth-it


    Quote Originally Posted by Boris Johnson, other PM candidate
    business

    The Conservative party, reputed to be the party of business.

  29. #2939
    Clan Clan InsaneApache's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    The Trotskyist Marr would know all about businesses and how they work wouldn't he?

    Cretin.
    There are times I wish they’d just ban everything- baccy and beer, burgers and bangers, and all the rest- once and for all. Instead, they creep forward one apparently tiny step at a time. It’s like being executed with a bacon slicer.

    “Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedy.”

    To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticise.

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  30. #2940
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by InsaneApache View Post
    The Trotskyist Marr would know all about businesses and how they work wouldn't he?

    Cretin.
    Why are you attacking the interviewer when these are the actual words of the Tory PM candidates?

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