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Thread: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

  1. #1471
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    I don't doubt that it would be a huge hassle at first, and likely continue to be more difficult than was the previous open border approach. I just don't think organizations and people involved will make adjustments and it won't stay AS bad as it is at the outset.
    I've found the current contingency plan, named Operation Stack.

    Operation Stack is a procedure used by Kent Police and the Port of Dover in England to park (or "stack") lorries on the M20 motorway in Kent when services across the English Channel, such as those through the Channel Tunnel or from the Port of Dover, are disrupted, for example by bad weather, industrial action, fire or derailments in the tunnel.

    According to Damian Green MP, by 2007 the system had been implemented 74 times in the 20 years after it was first introduced.
    Operation Stack is implemented whenever there is an urgent need to inhibit the flow of traffic to the Channel Tunnel and the Port of Dover, which handle 90% of freight traffic between the United Kingdom and mainland Europe. There are officially only 550 parking spaces for HGVs in Kent, so if access to cross-channel services is restricted, congestion would quickly spread across the county.

    The most common causes of Operation Stack are severe weather that either cancels or restricts ferry services, industrial action at the French ports of Calais, Dunkirk and Boulogne, and electrical failures in the Channel Tunnel.
    Kent county council, the authority that will be dealing with this, reckons that no-deal will result in queues from Dover all the way to Maidstone and beyond, that's 40+ miles. They also note that a permanent solution will not be in place before 2023 at the earliest, and NB. government projects aren't exactly known for timeliness.

  2. #1472
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    Tells you everything really. For Brexiteers, Brexit was all about far right theories.
    Do you expect that kind of generalisation to pass without robust challenge?
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

  3. #1473
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    Do you expect that kind of generalisation to pass without robust challenge?
    If you want to challenge it, I'd like you to also note the kind of fellow travellers cheering you on, and the kind of people you are adamant on dismissing. How would you respond to this guy and his concerns?

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    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    If you want to challenge it, I'd like you to also note the kind of fellow travellers cheering you on, and the kind of people you are adamant on dismissing. How would you respond to this guy and his concerns?
    Really? That's the best excuse for trolling? Just because you can find one or even some who share the stereotype you have mentioned doesn't mean that this somehow means stating all is somehow now accurate.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
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  5. #1475
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    Really? That's the best excuse for trolling? Just because you can find one or even some who share the stereotype you have mentioned doesn't mean that this somehow means stating all is somehow now accurate.

    Look at the leaders of Leave, and what they've been getting up to since the referendum. Doing nothing to address the issues raised by their support for Leave, but looking after their own interests, often in opposition to what they say the public should do and believe (eg. Redwood advising his clients not to invest in the UK, Rees Mogg's businesses opening up branches in the EU, Farage getting his family German passports, etc.) whilst canoodling with the American/Russian far right. What is the Brexiteer response to the economic issues raised by those in the know? Going by their leaders, it is to repeat ideological arguments whilst insulating themselves by getting themselves an escape route to the EU.

  6. #1476
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Jersey Finance paid for IEA report rubbishing 'hotbeds of tax evasion' claims

    A report by the Institute of Economic Affairs (IEA) rubbishing the idea that offshore financial centres were “hotbeds of tax evasion” was paid for by the Jersey financial services sector.

    Jersey Finance, which represents banks, law firms and accountants in the Channel Islands crown dependency, gave an undisclosed sum to support the publication. It claimed tax havens boosted the wider economy and that they did not diminish tax revenues in other countries. It also called for their status to be protected.

    The IEA, which faces a Charity Commission investigation into its political independence and charitable status, did not disclose the support in what it billed as an IEA discussion paper.

    The IEA’s director, Mark Littlewood, told an undercover investigator for Greenpeace how the report, published in June, would be used to “frame every debate and discussion we go to, about why we shouldn’t be shutting down Jersey and Guernsey as offshore centres”.

    IEA, the school of classical liberalism apparently.

  7. #1477
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    Tells you everything really. For Brexiteers, Brexit was all about far right theories.
    Far-right is obviously more vocal, doesn't mean it isn't true, it's no conspriracy it's policy. Could even be a good one as having a diverse gene-poole eliminates heriditary disfunctions but on the short-term it's dumb. And importing people who have been marrying relatives for centuries odd at best, ah well I'm not an EU cheermonkey it must make sense somehow to EU-cheermonkeys somehow. Reality is that people will hardly mix and that you import parrelel societies no matter how much you promote multiculturalism and you are just being an idiot
    Last edited by Fragony; 08-01-2018 at 11:51.

  8. #1478
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    https://www.ft.com/content/6d375b7e-...9-7680cedcc421

    That leaves the UK with three options: 1. “Soft Brexit”, which means paying the EU to obey almost all its rules, accepting “the status of colony”, as Johnson says, and forgoing trade deals. 2. No-deal Brexit: crashing out of the EU, queues at the border, flights grounded, the Royal Air Force delivering food and medicines etc. 3. No Brexit.
    I'm looking forward to our new colony.
    The rest of the article is mostly about how the secessionists have ended up actually saving the EU for the most part, it's a good read.
    Last edited by Husar; 08-01-2018 at 11:27.


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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    If that is all that is on offer, then I'll take option 2, thanks.
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

  10. #1480
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    If that is all that is on offer, then I'll take option 2, thanks.
    Should the rest of the country have to follow your lead too? I don't remember any of the Leave campaigners promising option 2 during the campaign. I distinctly remember Farage promising a Norway option, which would be 1.

  11. #1481
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    Should the rest of the country have to follow your lead too? I don't remember any of the Leave campaigners promising option 2 during the campaign. I distinctly remember Farage promising a Norway option, which would be 1.
    The whole point of a republican democracy is that, once the decision has been made, even the opposition must abide by the decision. That's pretty basic to the concept of a republic Pann.'

    Fraudulence in the tactics etc. used to make a given decision may invalidate that decision (and you have argued such here repeatedly), but once a decision is rendered fairly it is supposed to be binding for all.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

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  12. #1482
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    The whole point of a republican democracy is that, once the decision has been made, even the opposition must abide by the decision. That's pretty basic to the concept of a republic Pann.'

    Fraudulence in the tactics etc. used to make a given decision may invalidate that decision (and you have argued such here repeatedly), but once a decision is rendered fairly it is supposed to be binding for all.
    The thing is, option 2 was pointed out by Remain as a possibility, only for Leave to dismiss it as "Project Fear". Leave promised option 1. Yet you have Furunculus, a Leaver, now saying that he'd choose option 2, while option 3 is dismissed as defying "the will of the people" by traitors. Why are Leavers allowed to change their mind about option 1 and choose 2 instead, but they're not allowed to change their mind and choose 3? What's democratic about the former, that makes the latter anti-democratic?

    "If a democracy cannot change its mind, it ceases to be a democracy."
    David Davis, former head of the Department for Exiting the European Union

    NB. David Davis has been pushing for no-deal or thereabouts for the last 2 years. That's if you can call his lack of activity as pushing. His last notable act, prior to his recent resignation, was to go back on promises made to the EU the day before, forgetting that these danged foreigners can read UK newspapers as well.
    Last edited by Pannonian; 08-01-2018 at 16:29.

  13. #1483
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    Should the rest of the country have to follow your lead too? I don't remember any of the Leave campaigners promising option 2 during the campaign. I distinctly remember Farage promising a Norway option, which would be 1.
    Rest of the country can do as it pleases, as always.

    for a little news on the brighter side:

    https://www.politico.eu/article/brex...loss-estimate/
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

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    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    When did we vote to join something that was designed to be impossible to leave?

    I know the Irish voted. They voted "no" and the rules were changed so that didn't matter.
    I know the French voted. They voted "no" and the rules were changed so that it didn't matter.
    I know the Danish voted. They voted "no" so the terms were tweaked so they voted "yes" next time.

    Did Blair give us a vote? Or Thatcher, Major, Brown? That's close to thirty years with not so much as a single chance to have a say. Under each of them the institution morphed. At best the PM lauded the exceptions they'd managed to get and not the things they had agreed to. No, please do go on about the "democracy deficit".


    Unless you accept that the binary in/out vote choice itself was supposed to bias people to remain since there was so little information, you have to accept that the structure was decided by a PM who was avowedly a "remainer". So don't blame those who voted for Brexit that details were overly vague.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
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  15. #1485
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Voting no pffffft, just about everything EU gets no in referenda in the Netherlands, one tiny thing is changed, they call it something different, and proceed with the exact same thing. And then they wonder why people get cynical.

  16. #1486
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    When did we vote to join something that was designed to be impossible to leave?

    I know the Irish voted. They voted "no" and the rules were changed so that didn't matter.
    I know the French voted. They voted "no" and the rules were changed so that it didn't matter.
    I know the Danish voted. They voted "no" so the terms were tweaked so they voted "yes" next time.

    Did Blair give us a vote? Or Thatcher, Major, Brown? That's close to thirty years with not so much as a single chance to have a say. Under each of them the institution morphed. At best the PM lauded the exceptions they'd managed to get and not the things they had agreed to. No, please do go on about the "democracy deficit".


    Unless you accept that the binary in/out vote choice itself was supposed to bias people to remain since there was so little information, you have to accept that the structure was decided by a PM who was avowedly a "remainer". So don't blame those who voted for Brexit that details were overly vague.

    I'm not sure how the binary question biases people towards remain, as only one of the sides had a demonstrable manifesto, whereas the other was able to promise allsorts without any intention of keeping their promises. See the creationism debate, where one side has to stick to scientific evidence, whereas the other is able to pin everything on scripture, with every gap in science explainable by "God did it". Will you hold the Brexit implementers to the same standards that you hold the Remain campaigners? When we're out with no deal and Rees Mogg or someone similar is PM, will you demand that they keep all the promises made by Leave during their campaign?

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    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    I'm not sure how the binary question biases people towards remain, as only one of the sides had a demonstrable manifesto, whereas the other was able to promise allsorts without any intention of keeping their promises. See the creationism debate, where one side has to stick to scientific evidence, whereas the other is able to pin everything on scripture, with every gap in science explainable by "God did it". Will you hold the Brexit implementers to the same standards that you hold the Remain campaigners? When we're out with no deal and Rees Mogg or someone similar is PM, will you demand that they keep all the promises made by Leave during their campaign?
    In fact, neither side had a demonstrable manifesto - remain can no more predict the future than exit. As I pointed out - there have been many changes over the decades: it is not a static state of affairs. So yes, I will. Neither side knows what the future holds. Both are lying if they say otherwise. The remain of course will state they can "steer" the EU to do what they want and would have championed every little "victory" and ignored every change. Or will the future be different?

    To repeat myself again... I did not vote based upon the promises of any "Brexiteer". I didn't look at the "battle bus" and think "Oooooh - anyone who can pain a decal on a bus must be telling the truth!" I didn't think that the UK would recreate the Empire; I do not even know whether the Commonwealth really care any more since we've managed to slowly erode that over the last 50 years. I do not think that the rest of the world is lining up for trade agreements - although Cameroon did get Obama to say we're at the back of the queue so perhaps Trump will put us at the front just to do the opposite.

    If the ECJ has been removed, what I wanted has been kept. It is "odd" how many people around the world value this thing called "self determination" and in many cases are prepared to die for it. But we in the UK really should be thinking about rebranding to something like "the EU Islands" because without the EU looking after us we're doomed... even if most of the damage would be done by the EU since we have tried to burn every other bridge.

    It is very interesting that if we are out with "no deal" we do not even have the deals that existed before we entered. What is the reason given for that?

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
    Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
    "If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
    If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute talk with the average voter. Winston Churchill

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    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    It is very interesting that if we are out with "no deal" we do not even have the deals that existed before we entered. What is the reason given for that?
    Because the Union does not work when some can just opt in and out. Once the train leaves the station, it leaves the station. Granted, your politicians lied about that.
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  19. #1489
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    Because the Union does not work when some can just opt in and out. Once the train leaves the station, it leaves the station. Granted, your politicians lied about that.
    There are three things to have a look at.

    First, the areas where there are those who have opted in and out of different things. Such as on the Euro itself - which the UK is one of. And why was this? Oh - that's right! The vote was a "no" so they fudged the rules...

    Secondly, the process being followed is to enable countries to leave - and surely this would be a system to ensure continuation after the end of the process? Apparently not. When countries stop being at war they appear to have more quickly agreed systems regarding air traffic control for example. So why sould this be an issue?

    Thirdly, let us look at all the rules and regulations that the EU has with non-EU countries - gas from Russia comes in, as do planes and of course cars and trains. And from many other countries not in the EU - it is almost like there is a functioning world outside the EU! So clearly the EU does not generally act as though there is no interaction with those who are "out". What need is there to threaten to withdraw things that offer mutual benefit until something else is sorted out?

    In short, systems that are intrinsically good (or at least better than the alternatives) have many applicants trying to get in - immigration to the UK and the USA are cases in point. Not as many are trying to get in to Qatar / Saudi Arabia / Israel although these countries are richer - in many cases, they'd merely be dying to get in. Hell, even the Commonwealth has had some countries applying for membership to something that is little more than a Club. But the EU has so little to offer it has to bully those to stay, possibly similar to the USA in the Civil War where only violence was enough. I suppose on that score we should be grateful.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
    Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
    "If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
    If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute talk with the average voter. Winston Churchill

  20. #1490
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    Because the Union does not work when some can just opt in and out. Once the train leaves the station, it leaves the station. Granted, your politicians lied about that.
    Actually, the other partners allowed the UK a lot of opt outs, making the UK an EU member with enough Anglo-American elements to be different. Unfortunately, for the zealous, even this special position wasn't enough. Eg. the ECJ that rory complains about is a body consisting of representatives of all EU members, the UK included, that ensures that agreements between EU members are honoured; the laws that rory complains about are basically inter-member multilateral agreements. Not only is the UK represented in this body, but a majority (two thirds IIRC) of disputes involving the UK have been resolved in the UK's favour. Meaning the UK is a disproportionately influential and benefiting part of the supposedly alien ECJ. For an example of what Brexiteers mean by sovereignty, see the Irish border issue. The EU is calling on the UK to honour the Good Friday Agreement. Is this an outrageous demand by the EU? Not really, as the GFA was a bilateral treaty involving the UK and RoI, enabled by the EU, but not part of the EU structure. The EU is just standing up for one of its members and requesting that the UK fulfil its international treaties, something that should go without saying. Yet the Brexiteers want the UK to unilaterally break this agreement, and they blame the EU for demanding that the UK should keep its agreements.

  21. #1491
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    In short, systems that are intrinsically good (or at least better than the alternatives) have many applicants trying to get in - immigration to the UK and the USA are cases in point. Not as many are trying to get in to Qatar / Saudi Arabia / Israel although these countries are richer - in many cases, they'd merely be dying to get in. Hell, even the Commonwealth has had some countries applying for membership to something that is little more than a Club. But the EU has so little to offer it has to bully those to stay, possibly similar to the USA in the Civil War where only violence was enough. I suppose on that score we should be grateful.
    I think Lincoln's interpretation of the Constitution was incorrect. Not addressing the issue may have been an oversight, but to assume that once admitted to the union a state could never be permitted to leave is not traceable to the language of the Constitution. Even then, the last remaining attendee of the Constitutional convention had been dead for 25 years, so there was no one who had been present left to consult on the issue. On the other hand, there was no process for secession specifically either.

    Even so, it is within the power of a government to use force so as to deny secession by a part of its polity -- but of itself that is no guarantee that the government will succeed in doing so.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

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    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    Actually, the other partners allowed the UK a lot of opt outs, making the UK an EU member with enough Anglo-American elements to be different. Unfortunately, for the zealous, even this special position wasn't enough. Eg. the ECJ that rory complains about is a body consisting of representatives of all EU members, the UK included, that ensures that agreements between EU members are honoured; the laws that rory complains about are basically inter-member multilateral agreements. Not only is the UK represented in this body, but a majority (two thirds IIRC) of disputes involving the UK have been resolved in the UK's favour. Meaning the UK is a disproportionately influential and benefiting part of the supposedly alien ECJ. For an example of what Brexiteers mean by sovereignty, see the Irish border issue. The EU is calling on the UK to honour the Good Friday Agreement. Is this an outrageous demand by the EU? Not really, as the GFA was a bilateral treaty involving the UK and RoI, enabled by the EU, but not part of the EU structure. The EU is just standing up for one of its members and requesting that the UK fulfil its international treaties, something that should go without saying. Yet the Brexiteers want the UK to unilaterally break this agreement, and they blame the EU for demanding that the UK should keep its agreements.
    Aaaah yes. There are lots of opt outs. Except that the EU keeps saying things can not be "a la carte". Only opt outs when it suits, I suppose...

    Merely that the UK won 2/3 is of course not the point, and you well know it. Merely that we have "influence" in something doesn't mean that means we have to be a member of it - and we voted to leave it And you are hilariously conflating winning 2/3 of votes as somehow being a "good outcome", and itself evidence of "influence". I have no idea what cases were won or what were lost. Do you? Should the UK have lost 90% of them or won 90% of them? Who is to know? And yet you are the first to continually mention the Brexiteers lied on their promises.

    The UK is happy to not have a border in Northern Ireland. Ireland is also happy not to have a border. Whilst both are part of the same EU, this is not an issue. The UK chose to leave the EU. So, either there continues to be a border - which both countries either side are happy with - or else there is one - which the EU requires. So in fact this is a decision for Ireland. They can stay in the EU and have a border, try to get the EU to change their mind or leave and not have a border. The UK doesn't have to tell Ireland what to do. They are their own Sovereign state. Their politicians or populace can choose. They might not like the two choices, but part of being an adult is choosing between two bad options.

    Treaties can be ended - and often are. They are not forever - and this is a power that sovereign nations have. Such as how Spain keeps wanting Gibraltar back even though they signed a treaty that it is UK sovereign territory...? Why on EARTH is the EU getting involved? You just said it has nothing to do with the EU. But then all of a sudden it does.

    The Good Friday Agreement was to try to end the Terrorism that had been going on for decades and we now have a situation where we in essence pay off both their politicians / terrorists to not work in Westminster and also pay their salaries to not sit in Belfast. A great deal... only when the alternative is bombs going off in Ireland and the UK.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    I think Lincoln's interpretation of the Constitution was incorrect. Not addressing the issue may have been an oversight, but to assume that once admitted to the union a state could never be permitted to leave is not traceable to the language of the Constitution. Even then, the last remaining attendee of the Constitutional convention had been dead for 25 years, so there was no one who had been present left to consult on the issue. On the other hand, there was no process for secession specifically either.

    Even so, it is within the power of a government to use force so as to deny secession by a part of its polity -- but of itself that is no guarantee that the government will succeed in doing so.
    Yes, might makes right. An ageless rule. Von Bismark would approve - one's borders are determined by the power to protect them. The EU pretends to be all for democracy but of course only when things are the "right" way - as we see with Hungry and others who have democratically voted for the "wrong" people. On one level I would not mind if there was no article 50, there was no choice and the EU brazenly said "too late, third time lucky!" But it is a technocratic dictatorship with the garnishing of some democracy where the polis can choose a few bits round the edges but everything meaningful just continues.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
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  23. #1493
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Well worth a read:

    https://quillette.com/2018/08/03/bri...pulist-revolt/

    A few excerpts:

    What gets lost in these debates is the actual evidence. Contrary to rumour, Brexit was supported by a broad and fairly diverse coalition of voters; large numbers of affluent conservatives; one in three of Britain’s black and ethnic minority voters; almost half of 25-49 year-olds; one in two women; one in four graduates; and 40 percent of voters in the Greater London area.1 Brexit appealed to white pensioners in England’s declining seaside towns but it also won majority support in highly ethnically diverse areas like Birmingham, Luton, and Slough.

    Nor did these voters suddenly convert to Brexit during the campaign, which is another common misconception. One point that is routinely ignored is that British support for radically reforming or exiting the EU was widespread long before the referendum even began. Britain’s National Centre for Social Research recently pointed out that levels of British support for leaving the EU or radically reducing the EU’s power “have been consistently above 50 percent for a little over 20 years.” This is what the ‘short-termists’ cannot explain. If Brexit was an aberration, a by-product of wrongdoing, then why were so many people unhappy with this relationship long before the Great Recession, or the arrival of Twitter or Facebook? The currents that led to this seismic moment were decades in the making.

    “We are one people in Europe,” proclaimed Natalie Nougayrède in the left-wing Guardian newspaper during the 2016 referendum. Yet the reality for most voters was altogether different. When asked how they thought of their identity, between 1992 and 2016 an average of 62 percent of Brits said they were ‘British only.’ Only 6 percent prioritized a ‘European’ identity.

    During the 2000s, many working-class voters had started to drift into apathy, losing faith in politics. This was the canary in the Brexit coalmine. In more northern and industrial communities, working-class voters provided isolated pockets of support to a small far-Right party, but most simply stopped voting altogether. Debates about turnout routinely focus on differences between the young and old but many observers missed a more important gap in turnout among the different social classes.

    One person who had noticed was the political scientist Oliver Heath, who noted that until the 1980s there had been little difference in the rates of turnout among the working-class and middle-class (less than 5 points). Yet, by 2010, this gap had widened considerably to 19 points, which made it just as significant as the difference in turnout between young and old. Whereas in earlier years the working-class and middle-class had been divided on who to vote for, now they were divided on whether to bother voting at all.

    Though some journalists would later contend that voters were swayed by misleading economic data or social media campaigns, the reality is that Brexit was a natural extension of their pre-existing values; a vote to tip the scales back toward order, stability, and group conformity, and an attempt to defend the wider community that was seen to be under threat. Not every Leaver felt this way, but many did. This is why, though controversial, the anti-EU slogans of “Take Back Control” and “Breaking Point” (a reference to immigration and the refugee crisis) were not only emotionally resonant but more in tune with what was occupying the minds of voters—and had been for some time. Remainers did not even try to win these sceptics over. Instead, they focused almost exclusively on a narrative that was rooted in rational choice—transactional and incredibly dry arguments about economic self-interest.

    When it came to Brexit, 70 percent of Leavers felt that exiting the EU would be ‘safe’ while only 23 percent saw it as a risk. But when it came to remaining in the EU, 76 percent felt that was a risk while 17 percent felt it was safe. This was the big miscalculation.
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

  24. #1494
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    Good point about the popular support for Brexit. And how do you propose to manage the logistics post-Brexit? Or do you suggest that, with enough popular support, we can magic the problems away? How many customs officers do we have at Dover? How many customs officers do we need at Dover? How long do we have until we need those officers in place? What will happen if those officers aren't in place?

  25. #1495
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    These are decisions we pay governments to figure out.

    If the price of democratic self governance is more customs officers and warehousing then that is a price that can be paid.
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

  26. #1496
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    These are decisions we pay governments to figure out.

    If the price of democratic self governance is more customs officers and warehousing then that is a price that can be paid.
    Where do we find the room for warehousing? Where do we find the customs officers in time? What will happen if those officers aren't in place in time? Would you be happy with no deal, as you've previously stated, regardless? When we get no deal, as you've said you favour, will you and other Brexiteers accept responsibility as the natural consequences of your choice?

  27. #1497
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    The consequence of continuing our national journey with a socio-economic model closer to canada/Australia rather than euro-social democracy? Yes, I'll accept that.

    The transition costs? Well, why would I feel some personal shame when you're not bothered at the price your euro-social democracy has exacted for the last twenty years. **


    ** for ref - by my calculation that is 0.5% gdp growth, compound. ;)
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

  28. #1498
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    The consequence of continuing our national journey with a socio-economic model closer to canada/Australia rather than euro-social democracy? Yes, I'll accept that.

    The transition costs? Well, why would I feel some personal shame when you're not bothered at the price your euro-social democracy has exacted for the last twenty years. **


    ** for ref - by my calculation that is 0.5% gdp growth, compound. ;)
    Who made that calculation? Was it in an IEA article?

  29. #1499
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    Who made that calculation? Was it in an IEA article?
    It was, any objections to that?
    I've read the same elsewhere over the last decade, here is another:
    http://ime.bg/uploads/OptimalSizeOfGovernment.pdf
    “The research studies(8) using various empirical techniques and different sets of counties conclude that the optimal government size (total government spending as a share of GDP) is between 17% and 40% of GDP, and the mode of the estimates is inthe range of 20 to 30% of GDP, much lower than the current government share in most developed countries9. In 2007 the OECD average of total final government expenditures is 40.4% of GDP, while for the Euro area the average is 46.2% of the GDP.”

    “Using general government expenditure ratio in a sample of 12 European countries for the 1950-1996 period, Primož Pevcin67 reports the following: “the panel data estimates of the Armey Curve suggest that optimal size of government in the samplof 12 European countries is approximately between 36 and 42 percent of GDP, indicating that potential scope for reduction of government spending ratio is from approximately 19 to approximately 30 percent.”

    “Directorate-General for Economic and Financial Affairs, EC (2008)69 cites Buti, Martinez-Mongay, Sekkat and van den Noord (2003)70 who find that the maximum stabilizing size of government is lower for small open economies. Their model suggests a threshold of about 35% of GDP for small open economies and somewhat higher, or about 40% of GDP, for large open economies.”
    Last edited by Furunculus; 08-05-2018 at 13:47.
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

  30. #1500
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    It was, any objections to that?
    I've read the same elsewhere over the last decade, here is another:
    http://ime.bg/uploads/OptimalSizeOfGovernment.pdf
    https://www.atlasnetwork.org/partner...rket-economics

    Hilarious, you always find the right, "classical liberal" sources by organizations funded by neoliberals from the USA.

    edit: Listed together with the F.A. Hayek foundation here in case you have any doubts: http://4liberty.eu/think-tanks/insti...economics-ime/
    Last edited by Husar; 08-05-2018 at 16:50.


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