EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

[Pannonian]

Another tidbit for Brexit: how do you think Operation Brock will pan out? It's based on Operation Stack, which was designed to tide over short term delays and blockages. Has anyone here experienced Operation Stack in action? From the accounts I've read, it was basically a giant gridlock between Dover and Maidstone, with only some sideroads kept open for emergency vehicles. Brock is expected to be many times in scale.

[Beskar]

I don't think gridlock would be making Furuculus regret voting for Brexit. I don't think the economical arguments, even if they went as far as the nation bankrupting would either.

It is about British pride versus regional unification.

[Furunculus]

It is about who you hold as legitimate to govern over you, such that you assent to be bound by their dictates as we're they your own.

Europe does not have that assent, it is not a legitimate source of governance.

[Pannonian]

I don't think gridlock would be making Furuculus regret voting for Brexit. I don't think the economical arguments, even if they went as far as the nation bankrupting would either.

It is about British pride versus regional unification.

When I raised the point about food supplies being disrupted by no deal, he pooh-poohed the notion. Yet now we have a minister tasked with dealing with exactly that issue, for exactly the reasons I raised. Even if Brexiteers care not, at least they can own responsibility for the consequences of their decision. Yet all they continue to do is blame the EU for all problems, with leaving the EU the solution for all problems. Do you have a leak in the roof? Membership of the EU didn't prevent your roof from leaking! Ergo the leak will go away once we leave the EU!

[Pannonian]

It is about who you hold as legitimate to govern over you, such that you assent to be bound by their dictates as we're they your own.

Europe does not have that assent, it is not a legitimate source of governance.

Didn't you object to the European Parliament being given democratic legitimacy? I remember you saying that you shared my view that the EU should be a collection of states, yet now you complain that the EU does not have democratic legitimacy.

[Furunculus]

Didn't you object to the European Parliament being given democratic legitimacy? I remember you saying that you shared my view that the EU should be a collection of states, yet now you complain that the EU does not have democratic legitimacy.

no. i did not say that.
i said making it more democratic would be pointless as it would still be neither representative or accountable.
and i've long said that of the two words "representative democracy" it is the former that is truly vital, the latter is only a means to that end.

a european government will rightly reflect the compromise view of the whole of its electorate. which is too far to the statist/left for my taste. it cannot represent my interest.

a european government will always be running between pillar and post trying to take account of the very different views of its constituent peoples, and it will fail, which means it will be remote and unnacountable.

ergo - it fails in any claim to legitimacy, and thus I reject its right to govern.

[Gilrandir]

Cost of Brexit calculated:
https://www.politico.eu/article/brex...ek-study-says/

[Pannonian]

Cost of Brexit calculated:
https://www.politico.eu/article/brex...ek-study-says/

And we haven't even left yet, meaning we are still benefiting from all the trade links and institutions with the EU. Actual exit with the loss of these links and institutions will cost the UK far more. The more complete the exit, the higher the cost, with a no deal exit being the most damaging. The UK government is currently heading for no deal, with next to no preparations for that either.

[Pannonian]

no. i did not say that.
i said making it more democratic would be pointless as it would still be neither representative or accountable.
and i've long said that of the two words "representative democracy" it is the former that is truly vital, the latter is only a means to that end.

a european government will rightly reflect the compromise view of the whole of its electorate. which is too far to the statist/left for my taste. it cannot represent my interest.

a european government will always be running between pillar and post trying to take account of the very different views of its constituent peoples, and it will fail, which means it will be remote and unnacountable.

ergo - it fails in any claim to legitimacy, and thus I reject its right to govern.

BTW, do you accept the legitimacy of Mr Trucker's warnings about bordered trade? Do you still dismiss the concerns about food security?

[Pannonian]

Tesco and Aldi have said they will be stockpiling food in the event of no deal. Tesco, the biggest retailer in the UK, say that the scope for doing so is limited, and that the key is to ensure continued supply. Have the Brexiteers read what Mr Trucker said, or the parliamentary report on how that pans out on a wider scale? Furunculus ridiculed the possibility, but the experts on the subject concur that the scenario I posited is likely to happen.

If/when this happens, will the Brexiteers take responsibility for causing this?

[Furunculus]

I ridiculed the notion that governance / business would not respond to changing circumstances. They will, of course.

[a completely inoffensive name]

I'm very distraught. I just caught up on the Great British Baking Show and not once in 5 seasons has anyone made a Brexit pie.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Actually, what would go into a Brexit pie? Something, something, clever ingredients...and it would be half baked.

[Fragony]

You don't understand what the EU really is, it is one big konzi-scheme that is destined to fail

[Pannonian]

You don't understand what the EU really is, it is one big konzi-scheme that is destined to fail

Another anti-EU quote from Frag that is substantially meaningless. Just like all of Brexit. Why don't you come over here and join our Great Experiment in Autarky?

[Pannonian]

Actually, what would go into a Brexit pie? Something, something, clever ingredients...and it would be half baked.

Try Woolton pie. Countryfile reckon the UK should be able to cope foodwise, as long as we cut back to eating week no more than once a week. Any more than that, and that means more than 99.99% of Britons, and the UK will be in trouble.

My reply is even shorter:
In all honesty I haven't watched the video, because while it would be interesting to see the ants-eye-view of global logistics I don't think it will inform brexit very much.
If I want to know how to design and implement a complete reinvention of the benefits system, i don't use Nadine from front-desk in the Job-Centre as a my senior project architect.
Governance is complex, that's why as society we agree to collective solutions to find answers to intrictate and encompassing problems.

The idea that choosing democratic self-governance will lead to starvation is an absurdist fantasy.

Furunculus, do you still think the above? The government has appointed a minister to deal with food supplies in the event of no deal. Two of the biggest retailers, including the biggest of the lot, are stockpiling food ahead of no deal, with Tesco saying that this is no solution in stead of a steady supply. The parliamentary report on this says that the country cannot cope with the backlog, and all along the line logistics people are saying that there will be no steady supply of anything post no deal. And the government are saying no deal is the expected scenario (which the EU27 is now adequately prepared for).

[Husar]

Try Woolton pie. Countryfile reckon the UK should be able to cope foodwise, as long as we cut back to eating week no more than once a week. Any more than that, and that means more than 99.99% of Britons, and the UK will be in trouble.

I'm sure the Queen will be fine and as long as she is fine, the UK will be fine.
Maybe African nations will send aid workers and ask their citizens for donations to feed the British.

[Furunculus]

Furunculus, do you still think the above? The government has appointed a minister to deal with food supplies in the event of no deal. Two of the biggest retailers, including the biggest of the lot, are stockpiling food ahead of no deal, with Tesco saying that this is no solution in stead of a steady supply. The parliamentary report on this says that the country cannot cope with the backlog, and all along the line logistics people are saying that there will be no steady supply of anything post no deal. And the government are saying no deal is the expected scenario (which the EU27 is now adequately prepared for).

Yes.
The idea that choosing democratic self-governance will lead to starvation is an absurdist fantasy.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Pannonian is not truly suggesting that starvation is in the offing.

It has always seemed to me that he wants pro-brexit leading voices to ackowledge that brexit was a poorly thought out and reactionary choice that was sold on an emotional ‘preserve our sovereignty’ and ‘keep out the wogs’ agenda. He would further like them to publicly note that the turbulatuons and suffering/inconvenience of transitioning out of the EU will do significant economic harm to the UK for a generation whereas any measurable benefits are unconfirmable and only likely to materialize decades hence if at all.

I suspect this would require all such leading voices to also tender their resignations.

Is this a reasonable summary of your ongoing theme regarding brexit negotiations, @Pannonian?

[Furunculus]

Pannonian is not truly suggesting that starvation is in the offing.

Perhaps not, but he has chosen to quote me as I have spoken, whilst asking me to acknowledge that the government is making plans to mitigate supply problems resulting from brexit...

I do acknowledge those plans, further still I am pleased that they are doing so. I do not expect the world to say the same tommorrow as it is today - in fact I expect the opposite - so a government that is responding to changing circumstances is no less than I expect.

It has always seemed to me that he wants pro-brexit leading voices to ackowledge that brexit was a poorly thought out and reactionary choice that was sold on an emotional ‘preserve our sovereignty’ and ‘keep out the wogs’ agenda.

If he does think this - and i'm not saying that he does - then i would laugh my mammaries off. It would be arrogant, condescending, and plain wrong.
The fact that by many metrics we're among the least racist people in europe - and yet still voted to leave the EU - ought to tell us something a little more profound than that uselessly reductionist conclusion.

He would further like them to publicly note that the turbulatuons and suffering/inconvenience of transitioning out of the EU will do significant economic harm to the UK for a generation whereas any measurable benefits are unconfirmable and only likely to materialize decades hence if at all.

This is fair enough in its own limited terms, looking as it does at democratic self-governance in dry economic terms. Not many people consider this to be the sole criteria to weigh the merits of their democracy.

I suspect this would require all such leading voices to also tender their resignations.

The outcome will speak for itself. If I live in some walter-mitty fantasy land then no doubt i will be proved wrong, when all brexiteer politicians resign en-masse in disgrace. If they don't, I'd suggest that it makes the rickety construction of assumptions suggested above look like a fundamental error in judgment. I've got a fiver....

p.s. i've read this again and it comes across very aggressively. it isn't meant to be, but i cannot respond accurately without noting these conceptual flaws. :)

[Pannonian]

Pannonian is not truly suggesting that starvation is in the offing.

It has always seemed to me that he wants pro-brexit leading voices to ackowledge that brexit was a poorly thought out and reactionary choice that was sold on an emotional ‘preserve our sovereignty’ and ‘keep out the wogs’ agenda. He would further like them to publicly note that the turbulatuons and suffering/inconvenience of transitioning out of the EU will do significant economic harm to the UK for a generation whereas any measurable benefits are unconfirmable and only likely to materialize decades hence if at all.

I suspect this would require all such leading voices to also tender their resignations.

Is this a reasonable summary of your ongoing theme regarding brexit negotiations, @Pannonian?

There wasn't starvation in the UK during WWII. Plenty of empty shelves though. And just about all the experts on the food supply from producer to supermarket shelves have said that there will be problems, as I'd noted would be the case in the event of no deal, and for the reasons that I'd noted. Against that, you have Brexiteers saying that everything will be fine. Who is more likely to be right?

The proof of the pudding is in the eating, and the pudding will be tasted next April. However, just about every competent chef who knows about these things is telling this first timer that he's doing it all wrong, and just about all of them concur on what he's doing wrong, and what he should be doing instead. But this newbie chef continues to blunder on because this is what he feels like doing, and everyone will have to eat the product of this ill thought out experiment, whether they wanted to or not.

[Fragony]

There kinda was a starvation ine Netherlands in WW2, do you think we will let you starve. The Netherlands is one of the biggest food suppliers of the world and we would never let you down

[Pannonian]

There kinda was a starvation ine Netherlands in WW2, do you think we will let you starve. The Netherlands is one of the biggest food suppliers of the world and we would never let you down

Didn't you say that, post-Brexit, everything will be fine? Has Brexit changed the UK so much that "not starving" counts as fine? Is "not starving" what you meant when you said that everything will be fine post-Brexit?

Edit: The most concrete argument yet given for Brexit. "Do it! We won't let you starve!"

[a completely inoffensive name]

You guys are no fun, I wanted pie suggestions.

[Pannonian]

You guys are no fun, I wanted pie suggestions.

I pointed you towards the Woolton pie. We don't produce most of our meat, and in the case of shortages, we can feed ourselves only by cutting down on meat. Woolton pie uses flour, which can be milled from storable grain, and root vegetables, which we can produce and store ourselves. It feeds and it fills, which presumably is what Brexiteers mean when they say that we can cope. But it wasn't particularly popular when it first came out, and it hasn't come back into fashion since, as it sustains without offering any kind of enjoyment. Which is what coping post-Brexit will be in a nutshell.

[rory_20_uk]

Your hyperbole started out as amusing, but becomes wearisome.

We currently get 30% of our food from the EU. Assuming that we are incapable of purchasing any of it we could purchase food elsewhere.

And we’d have all the food we then could not export to the EU.

And hilariously the other massive threat is cheap food imports from elsewhere!

Are we to starve or drown in food?

[Beskar]

Are we to starve or drown in food?

The issue would be Food Standards, not necessarily food itself. UK and Europe do have some of the highest food standards in the world (even though there can be slips within the system).

These can be relaxed after Brexit, but then we would products like chlorinated chicken and hormone-injected beef, etc from the USA flooding the market.

[Husar]

You guys are no fun, I wanted pie suggestions.

Brexit is like a bumblepie.

Also, can't go wrong with more HFCS, everyone in Great Britain will become even greater!

[Gilrandir]

Brexit is like a bumblepie.

Are you sure it's not Dumbledore?

[rory_20_uk]

The issue would be Food Standards, not necessarily food itself. UK and Europe do have some of the highest food standards in the world (even though there can be slips within the system).

These can be relaxed after Brexit, but then we would products like chlorinated chicken and hormone-injected beef, etc from the USA flooding the market.

Ah. So the scare is that some might have food that is only of a higher quality than most of the world, not almost all of the world. Which is the same when anyone goes on holiday outside of the EU, or ate food a decade or so ago.

God, leaving the EU will mean I’ll be a cannibal by the end of the week!!!