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Thread: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

  1. #3331
    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    So, word is Johnson has agreed there can be no customs border in Ireland.

    Now it's for the EU to move and agree this is ultimately up to the NI Assembly.
    Unless I am mistaken, I am sure I read that there will be a Customs Border (in practice) in Northern Ireland in all but name, predicted to be called a 'Free Trade Zone' or similar and people in Northern Ireland can apply to the government to get a rebate on the tariff difference. So the end result is that for Northern Ireland, they can benefit from the UK trade deals whilst being part of a Customs Border.

    Hence this is why it looks like a 'win-win' deal which got Ireland's PM quite happy. Calling a spade by another name.
    Last edited by Beskar; 10-12-2019 at 16:09.
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  2. #3332
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Was this the deal that the DUP vetoed a year or two ago?

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    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    Was this the deal that the DUP vetoed a year or two ago?
    Boris added an extra provision in it, which meant Northern Ireland benefits from UK trade deals because the government will compensate them. In short, the bill of this is going to fall on us, the Tax payer.
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  4. #3334
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    Boris added an extra provision in it, which meant Northern Ireland benefits from UK trade deals because the government will compensate them. In short, the bill of this is going to fall on us, the Tax payer.
    But the essence, which is that NI will regulate alongside RoI rather than the UK, remains the same. Nigel Dodds rejected the latest effort yesterday on the same grounds as previously. The Torygraph, Johnson's mouthpiece, has run an opinion piece saying that NI are a burden on the UK and should not be allowed to block Brexit, with the UK dropping it if necessary.

  5. #3335
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Oh noes were going full on Venezuela with no bog roll to wipe our arses. That's the final straw. I shall back remain from now on.
    There are times I wish they’d just ban everything- baccy and beer, burgers and bangers, and all the rest- once and for all. Instead, they creep forward one apparently tiny step at a time. It’s like being executed with a bacon slicer.

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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    In anticipation of some good news later, I invite you to cut-n-paste the following text - selecting therein the appropriate option that reflects your choice as you might have made it at the time:

    Meaningful vote #1
    Withdrawal Agreement + Political Declaration (with no reassurance over backstop)
    a) I supported it - as a good compromise (we weren't going to see a [better] deal, so sign with a smile)
    b) I supported it - as an acceptable compromise (not perfect, but would get the job done)
    c) I supported it - against my better judgement (very uncomfortable choice, but a necessary compromise)
    d) I rejected it - with a heavy heart (i wanted [a] deal and am willing to compromise, but this was a step too far)
    e) I rejected it - it simply failed to create a good future with the EU (something that meets [my] criteria)
    f) I rejected it - no deal can be better than remaining/no-deal (and all deals are so deleterious it is beyond any useful compromise)

    Meaningful vote #2
    Withdrawal Agreement + Political Declaration (with non-binding interpretive text to assuage fears of the backstop)
    a) I supported it - as a good compromise (we weren't going to see a [better] deal, so sign with a smile)
    b) I supported it - as an acceptable compromise (not perfect, but would get the job done)
    c) I supported it - against my better judgement (very uncomfortable choice, but a necessary compromise)
    d) I rejected it - with a heavy heart (i wanted [a] deal and am willing to compromise, but this was a step too far)
    e) I rejected it - it simply failed to create a good future with the EU (something that meets [my] criteria)
    f) I rejected it - no deal can be better than remaining/no-deal (and all deals are so deleterious it is beyond any useful compromise)

    Meaningful vote #3
    Withdrawal Agreement (with new protocol text that would be used in the interpretation of how the backstop would apply)
    a) I supported it - as a good compromise (we weren't going to see a [better] deal, so sign with a smile)
    b) I supported it - as an acceptable compromise (not perfect, but would get the job done)
    c) I supported it - against my better judgement (very uncomfortable choice, but a necessary compromise)
    d) I rejected it - with a heavy heart (i wanted [a] deal and am willing to compromise, but this was a step too far)
    e) I rejected it - it simply failed to create a good future with the EU (something that meets [my] criteria)
    f) I rejected it - no deal can be better than remaining/no-deal (and all deals are so deleterious it is beyond any useful compromise)

    Meaningful vote #4
    Boris's Agreement (NI separate for goods/agri regulation and part of a dual customs territory as per cheqeurs + Consent mechanism)
    a) I supported it - as a good compromise (we weren't going to see a [better] deal, so sign with a smile)
    b) I supported it - as an acceptable compromise (not perfect, but would get the job done)
    c) I supported it - against my better judgement (very uncomfortable choice, but a necessary compromise)
    d) I rejected it - with a heavy heart (i wanted [a] deal and am willing to compromise, but this was a step too far)
    e) I rejected it - it simply failed to create a good future with the EU (something that meets [my] criteria)
    f) I rejected it - no deal can be better than remaining/no-deal (and all deals are so deleterious it is beyond any useful compromise)

    I'm keen to see what you people through, so please cut and paste the text leaving only one of the six options for each of the four votes...
    Last edited by Furunculus; 10-16-2019 at 17:35.
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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    To kick things off, I will do myself:

    Meaningful vote #1
    Withdrawal Agreement + Political Declaration (with no reassurance over backstop)
    e) I rejected it - it simply failed to create a good future with the EU (something that meets [my] criteria)

    Meaningful vote #2
    Withdrawal Agreement + Political Declaration (with non-binding interpretive text to assuage fears of the backstop)
    d) I rejected it - with a heavy heart (i wanted [a] deal and am willing to compromise, but this was a step too far)

    Meaningful vote #3
    Withdrawal Agreement (with new protocol text that would be used in the interpretation of how the backstop would apply)
    c) I supported it - against my better judgement (very uncomfortable choice, but a necessary compromise)

    Meaningful vote #4
    Boris's Agreement (NI separate for goods/agri regulation and part of a dual customs territory as per cheqeurs + Consent mechanism)
    b) I supported it - as an acceptable compromise (not perfect, but would get the job done) **on assumption it arrives as suggested**

    n.b. MV #2 and MV #3 where incredibly tough choices, and it would have taken little to swing them onto the other side of the coin.
    Last edited by Furunculus; 10-16-2019 at 13:17.
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

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    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    I am having trouble determining what is in boris's deal outside of the backstop, seems to be sliding behind the media's attention.
    Being better than the worst does not inherently make you good. But being better than the rest lets you brag.


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  9. #3339
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Feel free to put a question mark against the fourth, and edit later. :)
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Then d for the first three and question mark for the 4th, the backstop is only one of several unacceptable conditions that may's deal contains, no amount of fiddling will make it acceptable should the rest be unchanged.
    Being better than the worst does not inherently make you good. But being better than the rest lets you brag.


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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    noble attempt to actually talk about the issue du jour. futile possibly, but noble.

    seems like a pretty good basis to negotiate from:
    NI free from flanking policies and services (like GB), which is good.
    GB free from goods regs, which i'm not bothered about.
    GB free from CU - which i'm only bothered about to escape common commercial policy competence (not goods tarifs per-se).
    NI free from CU - which feels a bit pointless given that they'll be in dynamic alignment with eu goods regs.
    GB free from the direct jurisdiction of the ECJ (which is great)
    NI free... possibily from direct jurisidiction of the ECJ (but great that it is not locked forever as per backstop).

    kinda feels like the NI customs unions position is there to be traded away (even if only tarifs - leaving ukgbni services deals)
    also feels like the default to diverge is there to be traded away into a default to remain in eu goods regime (which i can live with - their choice).
    looks like flanking policy rejection was traded away (back into non-regression), in order to get the zero tariff regime between UK:EU that will make the chequers customs regime for NI work. no real surprise, and fine with it (as long as its non-regression an not dynamic alignment).

    still suspect we end up with close alignment on goods regs in order to minimise NTB's, and that it will take the form of shadow-EEA whereby we unilaterally align with the standards but accept no legal jurisdiction.
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  12. #3342
    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Boris got a Brexit deal. Let's hope this is the death throws of this drama.
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    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-50079385

    DUP refuses support, so this one is Dead on Arrival too.

    Yay.
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Still having trouble determining what is in the deal besides ireland, the one thing confirmed was the 38 billion payment which doesnt indicate well for the rest of it.
    Being better than the worst does not inherently make you good. But being better than the rest lets you brag.


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    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Greyblades View Post
    Still having trouble determining what is in the deal besides ireland, the one thing confirmed was the 38 billion payment which doesnt indicate well for the rest of it.
    It's May's deal minus the EU concessions on NI. The same as May's deal except where it's worse. It's not designed for quality, but for speed to allow Johnson to say he's got a deal before the deadline.

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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    If that is so; the brexit party running on a "break the deal" ticket will cripple the conservatives next election.

    Even if its a "designed to fail and blame the opposition for it" deal; this will be held against boris by much of the populace he is reliant on.
    Last edited by Greyblades; 10-17-2019 at 17:21.
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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    It's May's deal minus the EU concessions on NI. The same as May's deal except where it's worse. It's not designed for quality, but for speed to allow Johnson to say he's got a deal before the deadline.


    if that is the way it is viewed: there were three opportunities for soemthing better.
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    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    It's May's deal minus the EU concessions on NI. The same as May's deal except where it's worse. It's not designed for quality, but for speed to allow Johnson to say he's got a deal before the deadline.
    What concessions?
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    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    What concessions?
    May and the EU agreed a deal. Foster protested. EU amended the deal after further discussion with May. No differences between Britain and NI, which wasn't what the EU wanted or had agreed to. The separation has re-appeared in Johnson's deal, which is why the DUP now opposes.

    Edit: This is the one difference that has come to light so far. Parliament will receive the full details later.

  20. #3350
    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    You know how he can get it through Government right?
    A Binding Referendum!

    If the People go for it, then job done. An end to the Brexit-Discussion Nightmare.

    As Pan will respond, "This bypasses our parliamentarian sovereignty!" and he is right, it will do. But it will force the next phase of the progress instead of constant stagnation. (Not to mention how rubbish savings accounts are at the moment and are going to be in December.)
    Last edited by Beskar; 10-17-2019 at 22:30.
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    https://openeurope.org.uk/today/blog...-an-explainer/

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    The UK Government and the European Commission today published the text of a revised Withdrawal Agreement and a revised Political Declaration, coming just in time for the start of today’s European Council Summit. The revised deal is expected to be brought before the House of Commons on Saturday. The Government also released a unilateral declaration concerning the operation of the ‘consent mechanism’ contained in the new Protocol on Ireland and Northern Ireland.

    While the successful negotiation of a new deal represents a political victory for Prime Minister Boris Johnson – including the re-opening of the Withdrawal Agreement – the reality is that both sides have made compromises to get to this stage. The Prime Minister still faces a huge challenge in winning the support of a majority of MPs in the House of Commons, particularly as the Democratic Unionist Party (DUP) has confirmed that its MPs will vote against the deal. Some of the so-called ‘Spartans’ in the European Research Group (ERG) have indicated they will support the deal – in spite of the DUP’s opposition – but the Government will still need to secure the support of a number of Labour MPs to get it through Parliament, many of which see this as a “harder” Brexit than Theresa May’s deal.

    There is also the question of time. While the Prime Minister may be open to a short technical extension to get the deal ratified, he has ruled out asking for an extension on any other basis. There is speculation that he may seek to persuade the EU not to grant an extension (other than the purposes of ratifying the deal) to force a choice between this deal, revoking Article 50, or No Deal. However, the possibility of a General Election before ratification cannot be ruled out, and it is also possible that the House of Commons could take further action against the Government before 31 October.

    The key features which distinguish the new Brexit deal from the previous one negotiated by Theresa May are that:

    The backstop has been replaced with a ‘frontstop’ special arrangement for Northern Ireland which will come into force immediately after the end of the transition period. It ensures that Northern Ireland will leave the EU’s Customs union along with the rest of the UK, but the UK will have to enforce EU Customs procedures at points of entry into Northern Ireland. Northern Ireland’s consumers will be able to benefit from UK tariff rates and trade deals with third countries, and businesses there will continue to enjoy unfettered access to the market in Great Britain. The region will also follow the EU’s regulatory framework in certain respects, meaning there will be no regulatory or customs border with the Irish Republic.
    The special arrangements will be subject to the consent of the people of Northern Ireland and include an exit mechanism, with the devolved Assembly being granted the right to opt out of the Northern Ireland-specific procedures on the basis of a majority vote. The absence of a ‘DUP veto’ – requiring cross-community support for the continuance of the arrangements after 4 years – may explain why the party felt that the consent provisions were not sufficient to secure their support.
    The Withdrawal Agreement no longer includes a customs union as the default basis for the future UK-EU relationship, which was included under the backstop. The potential future UK-EU relationship is only addressed in the non-binding Political Declaration, which points to a free trade agreement rather than a customs union, but this is a matter which will remain open to negotiation in the transition period, presumably after a UK General Election. Consequently, the level playing field obligations that accompanied the proposed UK-EU customs union under the backstop have been removed in the revised Withdrawal Agreement and to the Political Declaration as an issue for further negotiation in the context of the future UK-EU relationship.

    Open Europe’s Dominic Walsh has produced a “track change” document which compares the new Protocol to the backstop negotiated by Theresa May. Although large parts of the Protocol text are unchanged, there are two important points to consider:

    Many of the unchanged sections are not related to trade in goods – for example, provisions on the Common Travel Area, the Single Electricity Market, and some of the arrangements for the implementation and governance of the Protocol. These parts of the Protocol were never controversial.
    Other provisions, notably regulatory alignment on goods, are the same as before in a technical sense, but are now subject to the consent of the Northern Ireland Assembly.

    The rest of the Withdrawal Agreement is unchanged. The standstill transition period lasts until December 2020, with the option of extension up to December 2022; the references in the Protocol to transition extension have been deleted, but their legal basis elsewhere in the Withdrawal Agreement remains. The financial settlement is unchanged, although the extension to Article 50 means that the total payment is likely to be in the region of £33 billion, not the oft-quoted “£39 billion” figure. The provisions for citizens’ rights, Gibraltar and governance are as before.

    A summary of the key aspects of the new Protocol on Ireland/Northern Ireland is detailed below.


    Customs



    Northern Ireland is part of the customs territory of the UK, and can be included in UK FTAs with third countries – provided those FTAs do not disrupt the Protocol.
    There will be no customs duties or checks on trade between NI and the EU, including Ireland. NI will continue to apply the Union Customs Code.
    Goods moving from GB to NI, or from outside the EU to NI, will only be subject to checks and duties if they are “at risk” of being subsequently moved into the EU.
    By default, goods moving to NI from outside the EU are considered to be “at risk” of subsequently entering the EU – with some exceptions:
    Personal property of UK residents, and consignments of negligible value, are not subject to any duties.
    The Joint Committee of UK and EU representatives will establish criteria for further exemptions from duties, particularly for goods which will not be subject to commercial processing in NI.
    Customs duties collected by the UK on GB-NI trade are not paid to the EU. Instead, the UK may reimburse NI traders whose goods can be shown not to have entered the union, and compensate or waive other costs for traders (subject to EU rules on state aid).

    Regulations



    NI remains aligned with certain single market regulations covering trade in goods and agri-food products, as previously. However, this would now be subject to consent from the NI Assembly, which can decide to opt out of EU alignment.
    Previous clauses on ‘protection of the UK internal market’ remain. The UK is not prevented from ensuring unfettered market access for goods moving from NI to GB. The EU and UK also commit to use their “best endeavours” to facilitate trade and minimise checks between NI and GB as far as possible.

    Consent/exit mechanism



    The Protocol applies for an initial four years after the transition period – i.e. until 31 December 2024 if the transition is not extended, and 31 December 2026 at the latest.
    Within 2 months before this end date, the UK will test democratic consent for the continued application of Articles 5-10 of the Protocol (the customs and regulatory arrangements, plus VAT, the Single Electricity Market and State Aid) from the NI Assembly.
    If the Assembly is not sitting at the time, the UK government will recall the Assembly’s members for a special plenary vote on the arrangements.
    Neither community has a “veto.” Consent to continue the arrangements requires a simple majority of Members of the Assembly present and voting. If this consent is given, the arrangements will continue for a further four years.
    Alternatively, if there is cross-community consent to continue the arrangements, they will continue for a further eight years.
    In either scenario, consent will continue to be tested on a rolling basis, with votes every four or eight years.
    If the Assembly votes (by simple majority) against the arrangements continuing, then a two-year “cooling off period” begins, after which the arrangements will cease to apply. The earliest date at which the arrangements could end is therefore 31 December 2026.
    During this two year period, the UK and the EU will put in place alternative measures. In doing so, they may consult the institutions created by the Good Friday Agreement, including the Assembly.

    Future Relationship



    The UK-EU relationship is only addressed in the Political Declaration, which is non-binding. The future relationship is subject to negotiations in the next phase, and, most likely, the outcome of an imminent General Election. Although the Political Declaration makes reference to the UK leaving the single market and customs union, it would be open to a future UK government to negotiate a closer relationship if it so wished.
    The parties envisage a future relationship based on an “ambitious, broad, deep and flexible” Free Trade Agreement, with zero tariffs or quantitative restrictions, together with co-operation on security, foreign policy and defence.
    Unlike the previous Political Declaration, there is no reference to a customs union as the baseline of the future relationship. References to the UK considering alignment with EU regulations to facilitate trade have also been removed. However, the parties remain committed to co-operation on customs arrangements, and to going beyond WTO agreements in the reduction of non-tariff barriers.

    Level-Playing Field



    Binding all-UK commitments to non-regression in the areas of social and environmental policy, tax, competition and state aid have been removed from the Withdrawal Agreement.
    The only level-playing field commitments in the Protocol apply to Northern Ireland alone, and even here only on state aid.
    The level-playing field obligations in the previous deal were only included in the Withdrawal Agreement because of the presence of a UK-wide customs union in the backstop, which gave the UK tariff-free access to the Single Market. Without a binding UK-wide customs union, there was no reason for binding commitments to level-playing field measures.
    However, the two sides commit to a level-playing field in the Political Declaration, as part of the future relationship. This will be subject to negotiation in the next phase; the closer the future relationship, the stronger the corresponding obligations. Both sides will seek to link level-playing field commitments to levels of market access.
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

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    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Bloody hell Furunculus. Do you get all your material from your thinktanks?

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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Our media is suggesting that this will fail, narrowly, on Saturday's vote. The general media feeling here is that it will then end up on a referendum again, where this time around 'Remain' will very narrowly edge out 'leave.'
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken

  24. #3354
    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    May and the EU agreed a deal. Foster protested. EU amended the deal after further discussion with May. No differences between Britain and NI, which wasn't what the EU wanted or had agreed to. The separation has re-appeared in Johnson's deal, which is why the DUP now opposes.

    Edit: This is the one difference that has come to light so far. Parliament will receive the full details later.
    The EU wanted the Backstop to be perpetual, now it isn't. As I recall May was the one who insisted that the EU could not be divided and hence the all-UK Backstop, but the Backstop itself is the thing that's gone.

    The real thing to take from this is:

    A: The unresiable deal has been revised.

    B: The Perpetual backstop has been replaced by a note in the Stormont Assembly every four years.

    Of course, the Remain camp are already looking to have this new deal declared illegal.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."

    [IMG]https://img197.imageshack.us/img197/4917/logoromans23pd.jpg[/IMG]

  25. #3355
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    Bloody hell Furunculus. Do you get all your material from your thinktanks?
    **slightly bored**

    You have repeated this point again and again:

    "Edit: Can you tell me who Openeurope are? Is this another of your thinktanks? "

    So I will repeat my response:
    https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...post2053798053
    "nice thing you have there. here is an entirely separate and unrelated thing i want to divert you to instead..."

    **in case you notice that i haven't discussed the actual merits of your thing, we'll finish up by impugning the possible motivations behind your thing**

    smashing!
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

  26. #3356
    Ja mata, TosaInu Forum Administrator edyzmedieval's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Please explain to me the following procedure - if this deal fails, and apparently it will, then what happens now? It's 2 weeks left, and Parliament said no way no deal.

    So... we're stuck in an endless loop?
    Ja mata, TosaInu. You will forever be remembered.

    Proud

    Been to:

    Swords Made of Letters - 1938. The war is looming in France - and Alexandre Reythier does not have much time left to protect his country. A novel set before the war.

    A Painted Shield of Honour - 1313. Templar Knights in France are in grave danger. Can they be saved?

  27. #3357
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Difficult to explain, as im just as much in the dark.

    Difference to last time is that party likes its leader and can live with his deal, so if it fails then the eu can happily grant an extension so boris can get the landslide ge win that will result and enable his deal to pass.

    Boris won't mind either, he wants a GE because he knows it will give him a landslide. we will have an election in the next six months regaddless of whT happens, as some govt will need some majority to implement some legispative activity beyond brexit.
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

  28. #3358
    Ja mata, TosaInu Forum Administrator edyzmedieval's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    https://www.politico.eu/europe-poll-...nited-kingdom/

    Not really a landslide when it's around 7-8% difference (including margin of error).

    If Labour calls it on Remain in the EU, Lib Dems are definitely on board, then not only the number will rise in percentage points but also can form at least a Remain coalition of sorts with Greens and definitely SNP.
    Ja mata, TosaInu. You will forever be remembered.

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    Swords Made of Letters - 1938. The war is looming in France - and Alexandre Reythier does not have much time left to protect his country. A novel set before the war.

    A Painted Shield of Honour - 1313. Templar Knights in France are in grave danger. Can they be saved?

  29. #3359
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Fptp is cruel to minority opinions.
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

  30. #3360
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    **slightly bored**

    You have repeated this point again and again:

    "Edit: Can you tell me who Openeurope are? Is this another of your thinktanks? "

    So I will repeat my response:
    https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...post2053798053
    I believe Pannonian is intimating that thinktank publications are valueless because the organization generating the white paper in question has an agenda and will therefore present only skewed or untrustworthy data in service of that agenda and not honest analysis.

    To be fair, this certainly does occur -- scientific studies generated by research funded by Big Tobacco were notorious for promoting doubt about the deleterious effects of smoking.

    However, it should also be noted that the analysts developing these white papers in think tank organizations do have a professional reputation to maintain. Presenting results that are clearly unsupported by the data will eventually mar that reputation, so there is also a pull towards honest reportage.

    Like anything else, the reader must be a thoughtful consumer of the information promulgated.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken

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