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Thread: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

  1. #3421
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    A covid test centre in Kent is being shut to be replaced by a lorry park to prepare for Brexit. Priorities..

  2. #3422
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    A trade deal would be good but no trade deal would merely be continuing the status quo. The UK mainly needs it to show itself as a major player on the world stage. The sooner the UK chooses to accept its position has altered since 1900 the better.

    The USA probably still would want the UK in its sphere of influence and a trade deal is a pretty cheap thing to give (compared to Pakistan / Israel / Egypt to name but a few).

    Isn't the status quo free trade with our geographically closest trading partners? It is practically (literally) a rule that most trade is conducted with the nearest geographical partners. That's what we have. That's the status quo. But you decided that wasn't to be. So you decided not to continue with the status quo. So how can you present something to be the status quo, when you explicitly decided to dispense with it.

  3. #3423
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    Isn't the status quo free trade with our geographically closest trading partners? It is practically (literally) a rule that most trade is conducted with the nearest geographical partners. That's what we have. That's the status quo. But you decided that wasn't to be. So you decided not to continue with the status quo. So how can you present something to be the status quo, when you explicitly decided to dispense with it.
    Oh dear or dear. Is that what you're left with?

    My reason was Judicial freedom (I know, all leavers are by definition xenophobes wanting to leave an organisation that is based solely in Europe...) Judicial freedom was possible under the EEC as it was an economic structure. And the EC. These were a continuation of the status quo as were at the core trade deals. But were radically altered by the EU. Which broke the status quo.

    Speaking of status quo, what about all the years in general before the EU came into being? Or, like the novel 1984, do the years since the EU was created the only ones that count and everything before that can be dismissed as alternative facts or just ignored.

    Full marks Dear Leader on the Revisionism.

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  4. #3424
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    Whether you talk about the spirit or otherwise, Biden, Pelosi and Neal have made it clear. Anything that leads to there being a border between NI and RoI will mean there will be no US-UK trade deal. No obfuscations. No excuses. No pointing the finger at someone else.
    but they're okay with a border between gb abd ni?

    ant they lard this opinion wirh their concern for the gfa...

    forgive me if i don't put much importance into such contributions.


    if we're going to elevate the importance of regulatory administration to the continued hope of peace in our time then it cuts both ways; gb/ni every bit as much as ir/ni.
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  5. #3425
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    Whether you talk about the spirit or otherwise, Biden, Pelosi and Neal have made it clear. Anything that leads to there being a border between NI and RoI will mean there will be no US-UK trade deal. No obfuscations. No excuses. No pointing the finger at someone else.
    Then we must thank god they're buggering up their election chances at rates unseen since Mondale.
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  6. #3426
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Greyblades View Post
    Then we must thank god they're buggering up their election chances at rates unseen since Mondale.


    I'd agree they're not exactly setting the world on fire with their campaign thus far. On the other hand, they haven't tripped over themselves either. It remains to be seen how a SCOTUS nomination affects the field of play.

    And Fritz did not do too badly. It was a "thank you" campaign for years of party loyalty by Mondale. I don't think anybody really expected RR to get taken down by any Dem that year -- though Fritz took a shot at it when Ron showed his advancing age in the first debate. Overall though, it was a slam dunk by the GOP of that era and the Dems had little if any chance to stop it. They did much better in Congress against the RR second term.

    Now, the 1992 effort against Bush41...THAT was a cocking shock-up.
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  7. #3427
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    An internal border now. Truck drivers will need a valid passport to enter Kent.

  8. #3428
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    An internal border now. Truck drivers will need a valid passport to enter Kent.
    Really? I'd have thought ya'll would've been looking at those odd folk in Devon and Cornwall as needing passports to visit the rest of you.

    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

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  9. #3429
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    And Parliament has just voted to free the UK government from international law.

  10. #3430

    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    And Parliament has just voted to free the UK government from international law.

    This? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United...al_Market_Bill


  11. #3431
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name View Post
    Yup. It allows the UK government to ignore or override international laws as it sees fit. The logical conclusion to all the sovereignty arguments that Brexiteers have thrown around.

  12. #3432

    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    Yup. It allows the UK government to ignore or override international laws as it sees fit. The logical conclusion to all the sovereignty arguments that Brexiteers have thrown around.
    So don't take this the wrong way, but can you please copy-paste the actual text that says what you are claiming?

    I am reading the texts of California's ballot propositions right now in their entirely cause I find these summary's are just not cutting it for me.

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  13. #3433
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name View Post
    So don't take this the wrong way, but can you please copy-paste the actual text that says what you are claiming?

    I am reading the texts of California's ballot propositions right now in their entirely cause I find these summary's are just not cutting it for me.
    I'm not an expert on legalese, but here's a report on the NI secretary admitting that the Bill will break international law. Is that good enough?

  14. #3434

    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Ok, looks like the American is gonna have to take the time to read UK/EU laws.
    This article helped me navigate what the key issues are: https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/...controversial/

    So here is the text of the Withdrawal Agreement, Article 4:
    Methods and principles relating to the effect, the implementation and the application of this Agreement
    1.
    The provisions of this Agreement and the provisions of Union law made applicable by this Agreement shall produce in respect of and in the United Kingdom the same legal effects as those which they produce within the Union and its Member States.Accordingly, legal or natural persons shall in particular be able to rely directly on the provisions contained or referred to in this Agreement which meet the conditions for direct effect under Union law.
    2.
    The United Kingdom shall ensure compliance with paragraph 1, including as regards the required powers of its judicial and administrative authorities to disapply inconsistent or incompatible domestic provisions, through domestic primary legislation.
    So in this agreement, you can't overwrite through domestic legislation. You are placing the Withdrawal Agreement as having supremacy over domestic laws.

    Now your Internal Market Bill is trying to maintain authority of NI goods within the UK Internal Market and has numerous sections regarding the Northern Ireland Protocol which is from the Withdrawal Agreement and specifically there is this section called 'Modifications in connection to the Northern Ireland Protocol':
    (1)The United Kingdom market access principles for goods apply, in relation to the sale of goods in a part of the United Kingdom other than Northern Ireland,with the following modifications.(For provision affecting the application of those principles in relation to the sale of goods in Northern Ireland, see, in particular, the Northern Ireland Protocol and sections 7A, 7C and 8C of the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018.)
    (2)
    The mutual recognition principle for goods applies in relation to all qualifying Northern Ireland goods as if they were produced in, or imported into,Northern Ireland.
    (3)That principle does not apply in relation to goods produced in, or imported into, Northern Ireland that are not qualifying Northern Ireland goods, unless subsection (4) applies.
    (4)
    If goods falling within subsection (3) are moved in a way that would, but for the fact that Northern Ireland is a part of the United Kingdom, amount for the purposes of the mutual recognition principle for goods to the importation of the goods into England, Scotland or Wales, the goods are to be regarded for the purposes of that principle as having been so imported.
    So the Internal Market Bill seems to be declaring that goods which are coming through EU-NI rules into NI must be treated as imports even though these goods are then coming into the rest of the Internal Market (Wales, England, Scotland) through internal member Northern Ireland.

    Back to Withdrawal Agreement, Article 5 which is the NI Protocol:
    2.For the purposes of the first and second subparagraphs of paragraph 1, a good brought into Northern Ireland from outside the Union shall be considered to be at risk of subsequently being moved into the Union unless it is established that that good:
    (a)
    will not be subject to commercial processing in Northern Ireland; and
    (b) fulfils the criteria established by the Joint Committee in accordance with the fourth subparagraph of this paragraph.

    For t
    he purposes of this paragraph, "processing"means any alteration of goods, any transformation of goods in any way, or any subjecting of goods to operations other than for the purpose of preserving them in good condition or for adding or affixing marks, labels, seals or any other documentation to ensure compliance with any specific requirements. Before the end of the transition period, the Joint Committee shall by decision establish the conditions under which processing is to be considered not to fall within point (a) of the first subparagraph, taking into account in particular the nature, scale and result of the processing.
    Before the end of the transition period, the Joint Committee shall by decision establish the
    criteria for considering that a good brought into Northern Ireland from outside the Union is not at risk of subsequently being moved into the Union. The Joint Committee shall take into consideration, inter alia:
    (a)the final destination and use of the good;
    (b)the nature and value of the good;(c)the nature of the movement; and(d)the incentive for undeclared onward-movement into the Union, in particular incentives resulting from the duties payable pursuant to paragraph 1.The Joint Committee may amend at any time its decisions adopted pursuant to this paragraph.In taking any decision pursuant to this paragraph, the Joint Committee shall have regard to the specific circumstances in Northern Ireland.
    So in summary, the Withdrawal Agreement states the Joint Committee will determine customs applied to goods that move from Ireland to NI and then into the UK Internal Market. This Internal Market Bill states that the UK will decide for themselves to apply customs on such goods. The Withdrawal Agreement says the UK can not modify the terms with such domestic policy. Therefore, the UK is deliberately violating International Law.

    I understand @Furunculus liked my previous comment because I am thinking he was betting on Pan's knowledge of actual law lacking. That may be true, but after struggling with the actual text for myself, I think it is correct to say that the UK is purposely going back on its commitments.

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  15. #3435
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name View Post
    Ok, looks like the American is gonna have to take the time to read UK/EU laws.
    This article helped me navigate what the key issues are: https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/...controversial/

    So here is the text of the Withdrawal Agreement, Article 4:


    So in this agreement, you can't overwrite through domestic legislation. You are placing the Withdrawal Agreement as having supremacy over domestic laws.

    Now your Internal Market Bill is trying to maintain authority of NI goods within the UK Internal Market and has numerous sections regarding the Northern Ireland Protocol which is from the Withdrawal Agreement and specifically there is this section called 'Modifications in connection to the Northern Ireland Protocol':


    So the Internal Market Bill seems to be declaring that goods which are coming through EU-NI rules into NI must be treated as imports even though these goods are then coming into the rest of the Internal Market (Wales, England, Scotland) through internal member Northern Ireland.

    Back to Withdrawal Agreement, Article 5 which is the NI Protocol:

    So in summary, the Withdrawal Agreement states the Joint Committee will determine customs applied to goods that move from Ireland to NI and then into the UK Internal Market. This Internal Market Bill states that the UK will decide for themselves to apply customs on such goods. The Withdrawal Agreement says the UK can not modify the terms with such domestic policy. Therefore, the UK is deliberately violating International Law.

    I understand @Furunculus liked my previous comment because I am thinking he was betting on Pan's knowledge of actual law lacking. That may be true, but after struggling with the actual text for myself, I think it is correct to say that the UK is purposely going back on its commitments.
    My knowledge of it is lacking, and Furunculus is definitely banking on that. However, the knowledge of other experts is not lacking (including the ex-Tory leader in the Lords and all living ex-PMs), and the relevant minister is on record as saying that it does indeed break the law. I'd trust their opinion on this.

  16. #3436

    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Just from reading that, my understanding - hopefully not badly flawed - would be:

    1. There is an issue regarding movement of goods between Ireland and NI, one being a EU member and another not (while being part of the UK).
    2. There is an interest in maintaining one set of rules for NI and another for the main island (what was the word for it again?), though in concept we would want one ruleset for the EU jurisdictions and another for the UK jurisdictions. This is related to the Good Friday agreement and the sectarian politics of the Irish island.
    3. The WA allows an executive body to treat NI as under EU rules for some goods, and as under UK rules for others, on the basis of some goods having their final destination in NI and not being at (an unacceptable level of) risk of penetrating the main island jurisdictions.
    4. This is the famous cake-having/eating commented on from the beginning of the process and it's illegal.
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  17. #3437
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    The long and the short of it is that this is a [political] tussle to add definition into the interpretation of deliberately fuzzy treaty provisions - fuzziness necessary to bridge chasms in understanding that would otherwise have prevented the WA being agreed.

    The EU has an interest defining the provisions in a way that limits UK autonomy.
    The UK has an interest defining the provisions in a way that maximises UK autonomy.

    A good example here is the State Aid issue:
    For while the de-jure interpretation of the provision is clear that UK law will reign supreme in GB, the de-facto result of an unfavorable interpretation would be bleed back into the GB economy.
    This where UK companies end up adopting EU State Aid regs because the cost of separately demonstrating compliance against sales that might in future be made into NI would be too burdensome.
    So the UK is looking to define the provisions in a way that limits what is termed as "reach back".
    And the EU is very keen that there is as much reach back as possible - as it is in the EU's interest as a regulatory 'superpower' to keep a G7 economy within its regulatory orbit.

    None of this is very surprising, or cause for disappointment, it is just a process that needs to be worked through...
    ... by an ugly contest of wills. c'est la vie.
    Last edited by Furunculus; 10-04-2020 at 11:43.
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  18. #3438

    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    The long and the short of it is that this is a [political] tussle to add definition into the interpretation of deliberately fuzzy treaty provisions - fuzziness necessary to bridge chasms in understanding that would otherwise have prevented the WA being agreed.

    The EU has an interest defining the provisions in a way that limits UK autonomy.
    The UK has an interest defining the provisions in a way that maximises UK autonomy.

    A good example here is the State Aid issue:
    For while the de-jure interpretation of the provision is clear that UK law will reign supreme in GB, the de-facto result of an unfavorable interpretation would be bleed back into the GB economy.
    This where UK companies end up adopting EU State Aid regs because the cost of separately demonstrating compliance against sales that might in future be made into NI would be too burdensome.
    So the UK is looking to define the provisions in a way that limits what is termed as "reach back".
    And the EU is very keen that there is as much reach back as possible - as it is in the EU's interest as a regulatory 'superpower' to keep a G7 economy within its regulatory orbit.

    None of this is very surprising, or cause for disappointment, it is just a process that needs to be worked through...
    ... by an ugly contest of wills. c'est la vie.

    Can you provide the specific text for the State Aid Provision?


  19. #3439
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Nope, other than to wave airily in the direction of the WA.
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  20. #3440

    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Heard Corbyn got kicked from his own party. The left in the UK is even more disorganized and incompetent than in the US.


  21. #3441
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name View Post
    Heard Corbyn got kicked from his own party. The left in the UK is even more disorganized and incompetent than in the US.
    An independent review found he had acted in a manner that was close to, if not illegal - the whole anti-Semitic Jew bashing thing and then covering up the complaint cases. Corbyn responded by saying the Jews are always inflating the numbers and need to take a shower and cool off... I have no idea why this has anything to with the level of organisation, or not of labour - the process appears to have been pretty well organised under Corbyn. I think that the view of plurality of views = bad is more a reflection of the state of the USA.

    Corbyn intentionally let in every far left wing group into Labour and it seems the latest leader is undertaking one of the periodical flushes of the excrement that ensures we have more than a one party system. I no more want right wing skin heads in the Tories than I want commies in Labour.

    If Labour keeps this up (and indeed the Tories keep up whatever it is they're doing) I'll be voting labour at the next election.

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  22. #3442

    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    I have no idea why this has anything to with the level of organisation, or not of labour - the process appears to have been pretty well organised under Corbyn. I think that the view of plurality of views = bad is more a reflection of the state of the USA.
    Cause the main center left party somehow had this train wreck lead the party for several years and less than a year after he loses a very winnable election he is excommunicated. It definitely reflects poorly on how organized and structured the party is.


  23. #3443
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name View Post
    Cause the main center left party somehow had this train wreck lead the party for several years and less than a year after he loses a very winnable election he is excommunicated. It definitely reflects poorly on how organized and structured the party is.
    Labour party is criticised for being institutionally anti-semitic under Corbyn. New rules enabled by Corbyn (back when the party secretary was one of his cronies) mean the secretary has greater executive power. Except the new secretary is not one of his cronies. The new leader Starmer has told the Labour MPs that none of them are to comment unless called upon. On publication of the report, Starmer unreservedly accepts its findings and says that anyone who says that it is exaggerated or otherwise disputes it has no place in the party. Off his own bat, within minutes of the report's publication, Corbyn issues a statement saying that the issue is overstated.

    It's a case of the old leader being a stubborn idiot who doesn't follow instructions, and who thinks his old immunity to direction still applies. The whole party had to follow when he (probably intentionally) ballsed up the Remain campaign, because he was leader. He's not leader now.

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  24. #3444
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    been a suspicious amount of silence on brexit in the last two weeks.

    brass tacks?
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  25. #3445
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    been a suspicious amount of silence on brexit in the last two weeks.

    brass tacks?
    You won. We lost. We're just waiting for it to go through. I could post all the stuff about how the logistics is going up the loo with any conditions short of SM/CU, but the believers don't care about evidence or experts, so what's the point? Lorry drivers can no longer enter Kent without a valid visa, and the expectation is for the traffic throughput to be delayed for a day or more, but that's not a great concern for the believers either.

  26. #3446
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Apologies, my comment wasn't directed here, but to the barnier and frost negotiating teams, and their respective tame media for leaks/outrage as the situation requires.

    So the brass tacks comment was to question whether a deal is in fact close to the final hurdles...?
    Last edited by Furunculus; 11-01-2020 at 18:31.
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  27. #3447
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    Apologies, my comment wasn't directed here, but to the barnier and frost negotiating teams, and their respective tame media for leaks/outrage as the situation requires.

    So the brass tacks comment was to question whether a deal is in fact close to the final hurdles...?
    AFAIK Barnier does not read this forum.

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  28. #3448
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    8th November 2019
    Mr Johnson was asked by Irwin Armstrong, owner of CIGA Healthcare, whether he could “go back to my company in the morning and tell my staff we will not be filling in any customs declarations for good leaving Northern Ireland to go to GB?”.

    The PM replied: “You can.”

    He added: “If somebody asks you to do that, tell them to ring up the Prime Minister and I will direct them to throw that form in the bin.
    2nd November 2020
    The new Irish Sea border will involve as many as 30 million customs declarations annually on trade between Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

    The comments were made in a briefing to businesses in NI by government adviser Frank Dunsmuir.

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  29. #3449
    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    AFAIK Barnier does not read this forum.
    Imagine if he did.
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  30. #3450
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    At least you folks can presume your political lights actually read -- even if they skip the glorious wisdom of this thread.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken

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