EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

[Furunculus]

I see how you can come to Brexit then. But that is if you take the politicians at their word. My concern is that prior to the vote, many politicians seem eager to dump their failures as statesmen on the EU and paint it as a boogeyman never expecting you would actually vote to leave!



Duty, responsibility, obligation, expectation...not sure the right word for it. I have an idealistic view of political unions, as I view political unions highlight a willingness of people to move beyond local tribalist mentalities. Europe has been a very violent place historically. What a shame to throw away a project because you couldn't be bothered by it. Did the North have a duty to keep the South in the US by force? Or did we justify it by appealing to some higher ideology about "the Union" that we wished to see fulfilled?

Always true that [all] nations of europe as they have divested power to the EU have flailed around to disguise their powerlessness [and] shed blame for their ineptitude even where they yet retain power. But don't mistake this event as something sprung new born from the despair of the 2008 crash, brought to fruition by the foolish promise of cameron in 2014. It is a 40 year dispute.

I have a practical view of unions, as would I argue do the majority of britons. It was not thrown away lightly, as mentioned above it is a dispute brewing for forty years. A decision finally made after cameron demonstrated beyond doubt that britain could not remake the eu in a way that would shield it from the consequence of ever-closer-union.

[Pannonian]

One part of the legal advice that May was so keen to cover up is that, should the EU consider the UK to be showing bad faith, the EU can unilaterally break NI away from the UK in terms of the customs position. Or to be precise, to leave NI with the backstop that had previously applied to the whole of the UK, but break GB away from that arrangement as the UK has shown bad faith.

May's deal, folks.

[Kagemusha]

When i look at this whole mess. I am starting to think that there will be another referendum and GB will revoke article 50. It is just a hunch, though dont hang me for it.

[Fragony]

When i look at this whole mess. I am starting to think that there will be another referendum and GB will revoke article 50. It is just a hunch, though dont hang me for it.

Would be fair I guess, because it is so devided and everybody has good arguments those who oppose brexit should get another chance to get their say imho, a brexit is a big thing and maybe not everyone thought it over well enough because of course there will be consequences, not as bad as some think but there will be some. Personally I hope the vote won't be any different, probably worse because of the bullying. The UK is a triple A nation you can't just mess with them

[Pannonian]

Would be fair I guess, because it is so devided and everybody has good arguments those who oppose brexit should get another chance to get their say imho, a brexit is a big thing and maybe not everyone thought it over well enough because of course there will be consequences, not as bad as some think but there will be some. Personally I hope the vote won't be any different, probably worse because of the bullying. The UK is a triple A nation you can't just mess with them

May agreed to give away Northern Ireland. Spain is messing with Gibraltar. If Brexit goes ahead there is a high likelihood of Scotland going its own way. And the UK's capital is strongly against Brexit.

What do you think of the Department of Transport's preparations for a "disorderly Brexit"? Do you think it is a good thing that the UK government is preparing for actions unprecedented outside WW1 and WW2? Do you think it is a good thing for the British people that their government feels the need to take these measures?

[Fragony]

May agreed to give away Northern Ireland. Spain is messing with Gibraltar. If Brexit goes ahead there is a high likelihood of Scotland going its own way. And the UK's capital is strongly against Brexit.

What do you think of the Department of Transport's preparations for a "disorderly Brexit"? Do you think it is a good thing that the UK government is preparing for actions unprecedented outside WW1 and WW2? Do you think it is a good thing for the British people that their government feels the need to take these measures?

Well it should be up to you, me myself would gladly accept any negative consequences, they would be minor and the benefits huge. If you look at the bigger picture there so many good reasons to leave, in the south of europe countries are basicly bankrupt and about to topple, do you want to be a part of that it is going to cost you billions. New referendum would make sense. If Scotland goes their own way that's also up to them, they are going to miss you, what use is Scotland anyway, Haggis is nice though. Gibraltar would be a loss but what are you doing there anyway

[Pannonian]

Well it should be up to you, me myself would gladly accept any negative consequences, they would be minor and the benefits huge. If you look at the bigger picture there so many good reasons to leave, in the south of europe countries are basicly bankrupt and about to topple, do you want to be a part of that it is going to cost you billions. New referendum would make sense. If Scotland goes their own way that's also up to them, they are going to miss you, what use is Scotland anyway, Haggis is nice though. Gibraltar would be a loss but what are you doing there anyway

You're calling the break up of the UK "minor consequences"?

[Fragony]

You're calling the break up of the UK "minor consequences"?

Yeah, market isn't going to go away, you won't be excluded that is scaremongering, it will just be a little bit more expensive but you will hardly notice it. It's the ideogical side about the thing that is at peril and that is not your problem, but Brussel's. At some point you loose legitimacy and are no more than a brick on the wall. For Brussel it is so. Netherlands an Belgium also broke up in the past, I do not feel welcome in Belgium but there's no problem, I understand why, Drunk Dutch people often misbehave

[Seamus Fermanagh]

You're calling the break up of the UK "minor consequences"?

Then it is a win for the EU and an, eventual, single European government. Either they watch as you slice yourself back up into the old "countries" and then reclaim what they want, or you repudiate your own request for sovereignty and return to them as a chastised example for the others to play ball.


Not sure it is down to those two options, but your comments suggest such a forced choice Pan'

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Y... I understand why, Drunk Dutch people often misbehave

Last I checked, this is not a uniquely Dutch characteristic.

[Pannonian]

Then it is a win for the EU and an, eventual, single European government. Either they watch as you slice yourself back up into the old "countries" and then reclaim what they want, or you repudiate your own request for sovereignty and return to them as a chastised example for the others to play ball.


Not sure it is down to those two options, but your comments suggest such a forced choice Pan'

Approval ratings for the EU have gone up across the EU27 since the Brexit result, even before the agreement was finalised with the UK's submission. Grumblings about this and that imperfections about the EU are dwarfed by the example of British Euroscepticism. I expect that, should the UK leave with no deal as Frag is encouraging us to do (the consequences are minor compared with the potential benefits), pro-EU feeling will rise yet further as the UK tries to orientate itself towards the US, with the example of a failing state looking across the Atlantic right at their doorstep, compared with their existing local community. I certainly predict the next generation in the UK will be the most pro-EU yet.

And the EU has practically bent over backwards to accommodate the UK, even now. The official advice to the ECJ is that the UK can unilaterally revoke article 50, allowing it to reintegrate into the EU on previous terms, rather than have to go through the gauntlet of readmission by all 27 states. The backstop exists, not because the EU wants to punish the UK, but because the UK signed a bilateral treaty with the RoI, independent of the EU's authority if facilitated by its existence, that the UK has to adhere to. Since the UK has shown indications of being willing to unilaterally deny that treaty, the RoI has to look to whoever has the power to back them, to back them. The EU's ability to unilaterally decide the UK has been acting in bad faith is there because, well, throughout the negotiation process the UK has been acting in bad faith, repeatedly making agreements with the EU whilst claiming to the UK press that this is only for show, that they have no intention of keeping those promises. Hence the EU negotiators' statement that they can read the UK press too.

In just about every way Brexiteers have been the most duplicitous, feckless political movement I've ever seen gain power in the UK.

[Gilrandir]

If Scotland goes their own way that's also up to them, they are going to miss you, what use is Scotland anyway, Haggis is nice though. Gibraltar would be a loss but what are you doing there anyway

I like it when foreigners readily give away somebody else's country, bit by bit.

[Fragony]

I like it when foreigners readily give away somebody else's country, bit by bit.

Isn't that what the EU is all about? You got a lot to love

[Gilrandir]

Isn't that what the EU is all about? You got a lot to love

What part of the Netherlands has the hateful EU carved away?

[Fragony]

What part of the Netherlands has the hateful EU carved away?

We pay too much, they block innovations, meddle with things that should be ourserselve to handle. It isn't all their fault it are national pro-EU parties that are to blame mostly, but the EU doesn't benefit us at all, for advanced countries it is a hindrance, a useless overhead

[Seamus Fermanagh]

I like it when foreigners readily give away somebody else's country, bit by bit.

Such a move has already insured "peace in our time."

[Seamus Fermanagh]

What part of the Netherlands has the hateful EU carved away?

Just wait. The EU could class big chunks of the place as economically and climatologically irresponsible and let the sea take them back rather than expending carbon to keep them dry.

[Beskar]

Do not want "service guarantees citizenship".

Used to that being the United Citizen Federation. But Terran Federation/Republic/etc is a common sci-fi trope for global government.

My favourite is Mass Effect in how they go "Well, they won't agree to anything, so nations exist, but anything space and beyond is the Alliance".

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Used to that being the United Citizen Federation. But Terran Federation/Republic/etc is a common sci-fi trope for global government.

Not sure if that line, 'Service guarantees citizenship,' was Verhoeven or Neumeier. It was not RAH.

Heinlein's Federation did accord the suffrage only to those who had performed a term of federal service. He was a bit nebulous about the non-military service slots, but the idea being that to be granted the suffrage, you had to have placed the needs of the community above your own for a few years of under-rewarding, possibly difficult, or potentially dangerous service on behalf of the community. RAH's concept involved the suffrage, public service careers such as law enforcement, and the right to run for office as the ONLY rewards of said service. All other rights and obligations were the same for voting and non-voting citizens. RAH also noted that your suffrage could only be exercised after completing your service -- if you went career you might get a pension, but no vote until you were done serving.

Neat concept, but works better in fiction than reality. In reality too many of the power elites would work to ensure that their child's term of service was almost risk free and the non-voters would probably end up as 'second class' citizens in practice, rather than equal in all but the suffrage.

[Beskar]

Not sure if that line, 'Service guarantees citizenship,' was Verhoeven or Neumeier. It was not RAH.

I recognised it from the movie - Starship Troopers. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMTz9nIUkGc

I didn't recognise the names, but wikipedia says the following: "Starship Troopers is a 1997 American military science-fiction action film directed by Paul Verhoeven and written by Edward Neumeier. It originally came from an unrelated script called Bug Hunt at Outpost Nine, but eventually licensed the name Starship Troopers from a science fiction novel by Robert A. Heinlein."

So it could have been from them and not Heinlein (not read the books).

[Pannonian]

Ministers will have the power to overrule doctors’ prescriptions in case medicines run out after Brexit.

In related news.

In a 17-page report the council, which is expected to bear the brunt of a no-deal Brexit because of the critical Dover-Calais trade route, said it might have to deal with 10,000 lorries parked or stacked on its roads if the UK crashes out of the EU.

Under a multi-agency contingency plan codenamed Operation Fennel, freight traffic management would be put in place to move lorries away from the main arteries of the M20 and A20. The plan is to try to keep the main M20 open for normal traffic with contingency plans for 200 additional officers to mitigate disruption and enforce mandatory truck-driving breaks.

[Montmorency]

It's a good day to die,
When you know the reasons why,
Citizens, we fight for what is right,
A noble sacrifice,
When duty calls, you pay the price,
For the Federation I will give my life!




A neat song, but not a model for society.

[Pannonian]

no.
i DEMAND a system of governance that leaves people free choice, and total understanding that they will bear the consequences of their choices.
i also have ENORMOUS confidence in the process of parliament, even where it produces results i don't like.

Doesn't the above require an informed electorate? And towards that end, at least reasonably truthful and open politicians? Some of the Leave shenanigans would, if they had occurred in a GE, have resulted in the candidate being thrown out by the electoral commission, yet, because they happened in a referendum, have been let go without official investigation. I have never seen a more untruthful political campaign in the UK than Leave, and that was by a distance, yet that does not matter as you've got over the line, and Brexiteers keep pressing this point. Does truth and information matter in politics? Or is it only the winning that matters?

Also, when you are fanatical about sovereignty, does it apply against all foreign countries, so that we control our own destiny without foreign influence? Or does it only apply against Europe? Is foreign influence good when you're talking about America and Russia?

[Seamus Fermanagh]

I recognised it from the movie - Starship Troopers. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMTz9nIUkGc

I didn't recognise the names, but wikipedia says the following: "Starship Troopers is a 1997 American military science-fiction action film directed by Paul Verhoeven and written by Edward Neumeier. It originally came from an unrelated script called Bug Hunt at Outpost Nine, but eventually licensed the name Starship Troopers from a science fiction novel by Robert A. Heinlein."

So it could have been from them and not Heinlein (not read the books).

Exactly what I was saying. And I have read SST on at least 4 occasions. Great read.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

It's a good day to die,
When you know the reasons why,
Citizens, we fight for what is right,
A noble sacrifice,
When duty calls, you pay the price,
For the Federation I will give my life!




A neat song, but not a model for society.

That was nieumeier. His take is that all nationalism is fascism.

[Furunculus]

Great read as always.
https://www.rte.ie/news/analysis-and...t-backstop-uk/

[a completely inoffensive name]

[Furunculus]

Since we've descended to p00pposting -

Jezza has got your back in the fight against teh neolibz:

https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk...al-eu-he-calls

[Pannonian]

Corbyn is a Brexiteer. Quelle surprise. Anyone who's done due diligence on him would have known that he's been a Eurosceptic for the whole of his career, taking after his idol Tony Benn. What Europhilic Corbynistas have to ask themselves is, is it more importance to follow Corbyn and take his Brexiteer direction, or is it more important to follow their Europhilism, against Corbyn's wishes? Corbyn is wildly popular among Labour members. Europe is wildly popular among Labour members. The two are mutually exclusive.

[Husar]

Since we've descended to p00pposting -

Jezza has got your back in the fight against teh neolibz:

https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk...al-eu-he-calls

The guy is crazy, but what can you expect from a Brit?

The EU has both neoliberal and non-neoliberal policies, as do most countries to varying degrees. A union that is made up of and controlled by neoliberal countries, would obviously have neoliberal policies, that's not rocket science. I have no idea what he thinks a Brexit controlled by a neoliberal British government would achieve for Britain in terms of fighting neoliberalism, but maybe he has some weird delusions about how he will win the next election and establish the UKSSR or something. You never know with a British person.