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Thread: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

  1. #1621
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    I hope the paper landing isn't the bill of any humour contest that was meant for you
    You should know, it landed on your lawn.

    Why don't we discussxit from this thread together so it can get back on topic?
    I don't think we're getting anywhere with this anymore.
    Last edited by Husar; 08-18-2018 at 17:55.


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  2. #1622
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Yeah it said something about eating cake, who does that really, eatingcakelol what's next a tsunami

  3. #1623
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    what the referendum debate should have been talking about:

    “The European Union: Supranational or Intergovernmental?” https://medium.com/@jskrase/the-euro...l-7980f7b5b4a1
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

  4. #1624
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    what the referendum debate should have been talking about:

    “The European Union: Supranational or Intergovernmental?” https://medium.com/@jskrase/the-euro...l-7980f7b5b4a1
    Which would you prefer, supranational or intergovernmental? Do you think the EU should be more or less democratically accountable?

  5. #1625
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    intergovernmental, in a heartbeat.

    because there isn't sufficient closeness of social and cultural aims to justify a single governance among the 28.

    i care about accountability and representation, something the EU is poorly set up to achieve.

    it is the gradual encorachment of supranationalism at the same time as the eu competences move into core government activities that has necessitated our departure.
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

  6. #1626
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    intergovernmental, in a heartbeat.

    because there isn't sufficient closeness of social and cultural aims to justify a single governance among the 28.

    i care about accountability and representation, something the EU is poorly set up to achieve.

    it is the gradual encorachment of supranationalism at the same time as the eu competences move into core government activities that has necessitated our departure.
    Aren't your demands mutually contradictory? If you want the EU to be intragovernmental, then the EU interacts via representatives appointed by nationally elected governments. If you want the EU to be democratically accountable, then the EU interacts via directly elected representatives. Your demands make it possible for you to lambast the EU for lacking whatever you want to accuse the EU of lacking.

    Me, I'm consistent, and I follow through with my logic. I want the EU to be intragovernmental, and I see no problem in the EU having powerful government figures that aren't directly elected, but are appointed by their national governments.

  7. #1627
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Many a prommilage say you are right about that, hi juncker good morning, yes it is saturday, no sunday is tomorow you old git monday comes after it remember

  8. #1628
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    Aren't your demands mutually contradictory? If you want the EU to be intragovernmental, then the EU interacts via representatives appointed by nationally elected governments. If you want the EU to be democratically accountable, then the EU interacts via directly elected representatives. Your demands make it possible for you to lambast the EU for lacking whatever you want to accuse the EU of lacking.

    Me, I'm consistent, and I follow through with my logic. I want the EU to be intragovernmental, and I see no problem in the EU having powerful government figures that aren't directly elected, but are appointed by their national governments.
    It might seem contradictory if i was complaining that the eu wasn't democratic enough. but that is not a position i have taken.
    I have not taken this position, because i have never had the expectation that the eu should be a fit and proper form of governance that I would assent to be governed by.

    The eu is:
    1. functionally incoherent as a form of government - in attempting to achieve the power it needs to possess by successive 'useful' crises.
    2. practically illegitimate in my opinion - in not being representative of my interest, and incapable of being accountable to such diverse interests.
    3. constitutionally incompatible with the UK - in constraining the fundamental principles of english democracy: parliamentary supremacy and the common law.

    That it might be deemed "not democratic enough" is someone else's problem, not mine, since I have NEVER assented to governance by Brussels.
    Last edited by Furunculus; 08-25-2018 at 09:52.
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

  9. #1629
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    ...The eu is:
    1. functionally incoherent as a form of government - in attempting to achieve the power it needs to possess by successive 'useful' crises....
    To be fair, using a crisis as a means of leveraging more power for one's self/organization/government is par for the course pretty much globally throughout the course of human history. And your first point is just as readily addressed by granting EU leadership power to truly enforce its choices as it is by discarding the EU. I don't think you want coherence restored using that approach (with which I agree, old-school nationalist that I am).
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

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  10. #1630
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    A fair cop. I'm entirely convinced of the principal assertion, but happy to admit the flaws in the given example.
    It should perhaps read:

    The eu is:
    1. functionally incoherent as a form of government - in removing the functions of sovereign action in response to calamity, and yet being entirely absent the political will/mechanisms to enact those same responses on behalf of the nation.

    What has been wrought on southern europe is a catastrophe of europes making, by which I include both the EU and european governments complicit in the idiocy of the single currency.

    This example still falls under the aegis of your suggested solution, but I feel entirely free to reject it. :)
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

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  11. #1631
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    A fair cop. I'm entirely convinced of the principal assertion, but happy to admit the flaws in the given example.
    It should perhaps read:

    The eu is:
    1. functionally incoherent as a form of government - in removing the functions of sovereign action in response to calamity, and yet being entirely absent the political will/mechanisms to enact those same responses on behalf of the nation.

    What has been wrought on southern europe is a catastrophe of europes making, by which I include both the EU and european governments complicit in the idiocy of the single currency.

    This example still falls under the aegis of your suggested solution, but I feel entirely free to reject it. :)
    It's the national governments' choice to participate in the single currency though. Those that didn't want to weren't forced to.

    And on your claim that the EU has steadily gained power through exploitation of crises: the major revolutions in my lifetime were created through sober negotiations by national government, under no coercion. Schengen was a local initiative popular to businesses that was adopted by entire countries. The single market was a British-led project that integrated numerous levels of openness to create a true single market. The single currency was a Core 6 project that was adoptable by other countries if their economies were sufficiently in synch with the standards of the Core 6. The expansion to the east was part of the price demanded by the UK in return for allowing the Core 6 to go ahead with the euro. Which crises caused the above to happen? Or were there greater, even more revolutionary changes in the EU's form than the above?

    Also, what do you think of those Brexiteers who complain about unelected EU commissioners?

  12. #1632
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    "choice" is an interesting word.
    the only two nations that have a 'choice' are the uk and denmark, and only then because they fought for it.

    the eu is functionally incoherent as a form of go't:
    https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...holds-the-keys
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

  13. #1633

    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Wooooo!!!

  14. #1634

    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    belong only to China
    Vitiate Man.

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    The glib replies, the same defeats


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  15. #1635
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    So many questions:

    1. Why do they show the studio reporter from behind? Why show him at all then?

    2. Why is their reporter in Scotland a priest with a sinister facial expression?

    3. Why would anyone ask Michael Gove about anything?

    4. What about environmental protection? How does it help anyone if the British fish every last fish away and then there is nothing to fish afterwards?

    5. Crying about throwing rocks? BECOME A REAL MAN! You know, like the French fishermen...

    6. Does the fisher lady (MP of Cornwall) blink every time she lies? Is that her tell?

    7. How does it compute that one guy says the French were always tolerating the British in their area, someone else talks about international waters and the fisher lady talks about the UK economic zone, being protected by the Royal Navy when the moderator talks about it having happened off the coast of Normandy? Clearly some are full of it or don't even seem to know where the incident happened.

    8. Did she just say that it's unfair that the scallops are swimming mostly in French waters? Maybe she should complain to the scallops then?

    9. There might be more, but do I really care enough?


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  16. #1636
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    I tend to the last point. No I don't care. It is a stupid problem - and I'm shocked, shocked I tell you - that anything can have been made worse by the EU!

    So, I await the EU to do nothing about the fact that the UK fishermen are fishing legally and the french are getting pissy about having to follow their own laws.

    Perhaps we could use one of our aircraft carriers to fish since it would be impervious against rocks and without planes has no function in a war (and only really had one to try and buy Scottish votes for Labour).

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
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  17. #1637
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Oh fishing, Dutch fishers spend a lot into not tearing the sea-bottom apart, it was all for nothing

  18. #1638
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    A conclusion that would be obvious to anyone that read Tim Shipman's All Out War:
    https://order-order.com/2018/09/14/h...unfit-purpose/
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

  19. #1639

    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    I haven't been catching up with The Economist which is my only source of news for Brexit. But I take it May is still going to beg for the EU this fall to accept her Chequer's plan on the basis UK will practice single market "best practices" let's call them...

    Then she is going to shove the plan down the throat of her Tory MP's who will flip a coin on whether they want to approve the plan or go through a civil war to put Boris in charge.

    Meanwhile Corbyn... just sits and waits for the next election to sweep him to PM position?

    Did I get everything?
    Last edited by a completely inoffensive name; 09-16-2018 at 22:49.


  20. #1640
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name View Post
    I haven't been catching up with The Economist which is my only source of news for Brexit. But I take it May is still going to beg for the EU this fall to accept her Chequer's plan on the basis UK will practice single market "best practices" let's call them...

    Then she is going to shove the plan down the throat of her Tory MP's who will flip a coin on whether they want to approve the plan or go through a civil war to put Boris in charge.

    Meanwhile Corbyn... just sits and waits for the next election to sweep him to PM position?

    Did I get everything?
    Gove has assured the party they can always go back on their promises. The last time a minister said something similar, the EU27 immediately dismissed an agreement made with the UK just 24 hours previous as being made in bad faith, reminding these idiots that Europeans can read English and they're aware of what these twunts say in the UK media.

    Edit: Oh, and Corbyn's attack dogs were organised in the last party conference to ensure that nothing would be said to counter their leader's pro-Brexit position. Momentum actually celebrated stopping Brexit from being formally discussed.
    Last edited by Pannonian; 09-17-2018 at 00:34.

  21. #1641
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Does Corbyn want to be PM? Weekly meetings with someone he doesn't want to exist, and needing to have his ideals abut reality. That would be an extremely painful process for all of them - enacting the vast list of plans that require money whilst desperately trying to find the money - historically increasing taxes tends to produce little more revenue since the very ones that could pay more are the quickest to leave the country - or invest in complex schemes to protect their money.

    Momentum protecting a democratic decisions by undemocratic means - what an odd world we live in.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
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  22. #1642
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    The IEA produces dodgy research.

    Not news I guess. Except that this is the kind of guff Brexit plans will be based on, the kind of guff Furunculus is fond of citing.

  23. #1643
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    The IEA produces dodgy research.

    Not news I guess. Except that this is the kind of guff Brexit plans will be based on, the kind of guff Furunculus is fond of citing.
    An economist with a model that predicts more than 10 years out. Good luck with that.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

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  24. #1644
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    The IEA produces dodgy research.

    Not news I guess. Except that this is the kind of guff Brexit plans will be based on, the kind of guff Furunculus is fond of citing.
    Come on, he already said he considers it fine unless you take every assumption and bit of math in their 90 page report and prove it wrong. Actually, I found barely any math in there, mostly just assumptions and numbers pulled from these assumptions and other sources. So go ahad and prove the 90 pages plus all the cited sources wrong beyond any of Furunculus' doubt, and maybe then he will turn, or decide that your proof does not prove anything to him.

    It's a piece of cake, you could be done by 2025...well in time for it to be too late anyway.
    Last edited by Husar; 09-24-2018 at 17:52.


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  25. #1645
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    An economist with a model that predicts more than 10 years out. Good luck with that.
    The arch proponent of No Deal has said that it will take up to 50 years for the benefits to show, meaning all negatives can be excused until he is dead and doesn't have to answer any more.

  26. #1646
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    The IEA produces dodgy research.

    Not news I guess. Except that this is the kind of guff Brexit plans will be based on, the kind of guff Furunculus is fond of citing.
    Still whining about teh neoliberals?

    Shanker Singham had a good reputation, and has a long history before he recently joined the idea.
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

  27. #1647
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    The arch proponent of No Deal has said that it will take up to 50 years for the benefits to show, meaning all negatives can be excused until he is dead and doesn't have to answer any more.
    I understand your snark here. The 'convenience' of the length of such a prediction, regardless of its efficacy.

    My earlier post though, was really more of a shot at economists. I am fairly firmly of the belief that if you ask 5 economists for their predictions of future economic conditions, you will receive 7 different answers -- all of them contradictory.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

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  28. #1648
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    I understand your snark here. The 'convenience' of the length of such a prediction, regardless of its efficacy.

    My earlier post though, was really more of a shot at economists. I am fairly firmly of the belief that if you ask 5 economists for their predictions of future economic conditions, you will receive 7 different answers -- all of them contradictory.
    The massive majority of economists agree that Brexit will be a disaster though, citing established models, actual laws, overwhelming evidence of economic tendencies, etc. This is backed by representatives of numerous industries who have a deep understanding of how their industries work. It is also backed by studies by relevant government bodies who will have to deal with Brexit. If 19 out of 20 expert sources tell you something is a bad idea, how likely is it that the 1 in 20 is correct? When the 1 in 20 is not backed by evidence, and the 19 in 20 are.

  29. #1649
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    A great argument against democratic self governance, puzzled why more don't follow this logic....

    n.b. https://www.economist.com/essay/2018...onomist-at-175
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

  30. #1650
    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    With the issue of immigration, it would be solved by investment within those regions. Though for this to be effective, there also needs to be some resemblance of global order there too, as handing money to tinpot dictators is a terrible idea, but investing in a like-minded nation would produce very fruitful returns. These fruitful returns mean people in those nations no longer feel the need to migrate too, as it is not worth the value of moving away from family and loved ones.

    Unfortunately, some people are against said win-win investment due to jealousy which rears its ugly head politically in the parties of the right (though can appear in the left due to envy).
    Last edited by Beskar; 09-26-2018 at 20:46.
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