EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

[Pannonian]

To be part of the EEC but not the EU.

Customs Union is too far for many Brexiteers though, as it prevents them from signing trade agreements. And as Major and Blair pointed out during the campaign, there is the UK-RoI bilateral treaty to bear in mind, which was facilitated by mutual membership of the EU, but exists outside EU membership. Many leading Brexiteers want to unilaterally repudiate that treaty. Now what kind of agreements a country can get when it's shown that it will unilaterally ignore bilateral treaties, I'm unsure about. I'm sure I've already mentioned that the ERG, from whose ranks the next PM will be chosen, have already said that any agreement made by May will be ignored when she goes. The directors of Brexit have stated that their formal policy is that the UK shall become a rogue state who will not be obliged to keep any agreements. They will provide the next PM when the Tory party ousts May in December at the latest.

[Greyblades]

Is there anything practical that Leavers are united on and are willing to take responsibility for? Most of the Leave argument tends towards opposition to something existing, but without offering anything concrete as an alternative. A lot of criticism of others, but few arguments about how they'll make things better. So anything which isn't strictly following the Remain position is claimed to be support for a nebulous Leave position.

We're united on a break with europe, the degree of economic seperation is variable but the common theme is not being subordinate to EU lawmaking or foreign policy. Way I saw it the economic ties would be the most beneficial deal we could get the EU to agree to while law and foriegn policy were red lines, if they wont budge we go no deal, WTO rules, ideally we'd be reciprical with tarrif and borders, they dont tax us out we wont do likewise

But for some reason our politicians act like the outcome would be reliant on what we decide instead of what the EU does and that self governance is an optional instead of an absolute requirement. They also dont seem to think we are smart enough to notice them being outright self sabotaging when negociating.

If they keep it up it wont end well for thier election chances, not that they arent approaching terminal as it is.

[Furunculus]

Customs Union is too far for many Brexiteers though, as it prevents them from signing trade agreements.

a little nuance is called for here; are you referring to the common external tariff, or the common commercial policy?
or both...

[Husar]

It's page 88 and Brexit is still in progress.

[InsaneApache]

Is there anything practical that Leavers are united on and are willing to take responsibility for?

Democracy.

[Furunculus]

Though the latter 50% who chose the option to leave have no consensus on what leave actually looks like

^ responsible for purveying fake news. ^

Like there was any honesty or consensus among remain campaign!

There are only about 15% of the electorate who are actively pro-EU in the sense of approving of ever-closer-union.
i.e. they have no fundamental objection to joining the Euro, schengen, full justice integration, a common foreign policy, tax harmonisation, or the full convergence of flanking policies on social, employment and environmental regulation.
15%!

Was that what we heard from the remain campaign?
No, it was not. We got endless variations of nick clegg's LIE that eu membership in years time would look pretty much like it did today.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

It's page 88 and Brexit is still in progress.

Pretty sure we left 29/03/19 with a trade deal, after which Theresa May resigned and was replaced by Oliver Letwin.

[drone]

It's page 88 and Brexit is still in progress.

TV fans delighted as Brexit renewed for another season

[Seamus Fermanagh]

If this keeps up, Brexit will be part of the next Presidential election here. Of course, our candidates will likely manage to both confirm their ignorance of any of the nuances AND offend one or all of the UK's factions on this issue. It is part of the charm of the 'Special Relationship.'

[InsaneApache]

Our illustrious MPs take a break from Brexit...



A bonus for spotting Treason May.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48034732

Ann Widdicombe is standing for the Brexit Party.

Farage really DOES have his ducks in order.

[rory_20_uk]

Our First Past the Post system is buckling under Brexit. And the EU's system designed to penalise small parties is adding to the mess.

Any solution would penalise the very people who gain most from it. So I'm not that hopeful.

[Pannonian]

Our First Past the Post system is buckling under Brexit. And the EU's system designed to penalise small parties is adding to the mess.

Any solution would penalise the very people who gain most from it. So I'm not that hopeful.

How is it the EU's fault again?

[rory_20_uk]

How is it the EU's fault again?

Since the EU uses the d'Hondt system: "The 'd'Hondt method' is a mathematical formula used widely in proportional representation systems, although it leads to less proportional results than other systems for seat allocation such as the Hare-Niemeyer and Sainte-Laguë/Schepers methods. Moreover, it tends to increase the advantage for the electoral lists gaining most votes to the detriment of those with fewer votes"

I know, I know. more propaganda from those anti-EU liars... Link Oh wait... that's the EU website!

[Pannonian]

Since the EU uses the d'Hondt system: "The 'd'Hondt method' is a mathematical formula used widely in proportional representation systems, although it leads to less proportional results than other systems for seat allocation such as the Hare-Niemeyer and Sainte-Laguë/Schepers methods. Moreover, it tends to increase the advantage for the electoral lists gaining most votes to the detriment of those with fewer votes"

I know, I know. more propaganda from those anti-EU liars... Link Oh wait... that's the EU website!

AFAICS it's a slight favouring of one over the other. Nothing like the consistent rule by minority of our own homegrown system. The d'Hondt system has the massive advantage of being in use in far more countries than your other named systems.

[Husar]

Since the EU uses the d'Hondt system: "The 'd'Hondt method' is a mathematical formula used widely in proportional representation systems, although it leads to less proportional results than other systems for seat allocation such as the Hare-Niemeyer and Sainte-Laguë/Schepers methods. Moreover, it tends to increase the advantage for the electoral lists gaining most votes to the detriment of those with fewer votes"

I know, I know. more propaganda from those anti-EU liars... Link Oh wait... that's the EU website!

That's interesting, and it goes on:

It is, however, effective in facilitating majority formation and thus in securing parliamentary operability. The d'Hondt method is used by 17 EU Member States for the elections to the European Parliament. Furthermore, it is also used within the Parliament as a formula for distributing the chairs of the parliamentary committees and delegations, as well as to distribute those posts among the national delegations within the political groups. Such proportional distribution of leadership positions within Parliament prevents domination of parliamentary political life by only one or two large political groups, ensuring smaller political groups also have a say on the political agenda. Some argue however that this limits the impact of the election results on the political direction of decision-making within Parliament and call for a 'winner-takes-all' approach instead.

Almost sounds like the EU was a product of its member states, which can do many things differently while some of them want it to be even worse. Of course that's silly because we all know the EU descended from the heavens and subjugated all of its current member states using alien mind control technology. I'm sure all of this was implemented against the will of the elected UK governments that ratified all of it.

[rory_20_uk]

Almost sounds like the EU was a product of its member states, which can do many things differently while some of them want it to be even worse. Of course that's silly because we all know the EU descended from the heavens and subjugated all of its current member states using alien mind control technology.

No, merely overruling every single plebiscite that has taken place and actively altering laws to avoid asking the direct question of the existence of the EU.

"Subjugated" is such a decisive word. They are merely freeing up people from having to worry about how their country is run. For their own benefit of course. And if the people don't like it they are ignorant xenophobes.

[Pannonian]

No, merely overruling every single plebiscite that has taken place and actively altering laws to avoid asking the direct question of the existence of the EU.

"Subjugated" is such a decisive word. They are merely freeing up people from having to worry about how their country is run. For their own benefit of course. And if the people don't like it they are ignorant xenophobes.

Should the winners of the UK plebiscite be held responsible for the promises they made to win? When will we see the extra 350m/wk for the NHS that was promised? I've asked you quite a few times whether you'd be willing to be held responsible for the consequences of Brexit. You said somewhere that, if it all goes tits up, you'd go abroad to find work.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Should the winners of the UK plebiscite be held responsible for the promises they made to win? When will we see the extra 350m/wk for the NHS that was promised? I've asked you quite a few times whether you'd be willing to be held responsible for the consequences of Brexit. You said somewhere that, if it all goes tits up, you'd go abroad to find work.

Be fair, Pannonian, he said he COULD go abroad to find work given his career choice, but also expressed the desire to stay in his native land.

And wouldn't the correct choice have been to implement the decision of the voters as fast as practicable, using subsequent elections to vote out those who over-promised and under-performed?

If every decision must be reversed because some pol lied to try to persuade the electorate, than NEITHER of our governments would accomplish even the little they do...

[Pannonian]

Be fair, Pannonian, he said he COULD go abroad to find work given his career choice, but also expressed the desire to stay in his native land.

And wouldn't the correct choice have been to implement the decision of the voters as fast as practicable, using subsequent elections to vote out those who over-promised and under-performed?

If every decision must be reversed because some pol lied to try to persuade the electorate, than NEITHER of our governments would accomplish even the little they do...

The thing is, the leaders of Leave all ran clear of the leadership contest, and on the very morning of the result, Farage disowned the NHS promise. Brexiteers want victory without responsibility. They want to point the finger at a speck in someone's eye whilst ignoring the plank that's propping open their eyelids. Even now Brexiteers won't own responsibility for the consequences of their decision, they only want to accuse others of not respecting their decision.

Also, on the electorate: if there is such a simple solution, the government should be able to pass a Bill enacting Brexit. That is how Parliamentary democracy works. However, an election, held after May set article 50 in motion, left the government without the power to do so. This would suggest that the mandate no longer exists. May has already had three goes at her Bill, and failed each time. No deal, which is what the next PM will enact, had even less support than reversing the decision. Rory complains about how the EU's form of proportional representation under-represents smaller parties by the odd seat. But something that has been overwhelmingly rejected by Parliament (by 300 votes IIRC) will be enacted because that's the choice of the Tory members who will choose the next Tory leader. Which is less representative? Which has the greater import?

[Husar]

No, merely overruling every single plebiscite that has taken place and actively altering laws to avoid asking the direct question of the existence of the EU.

The EU overruled plebiscites? Do you have a link for that?
Did the EU do that or the national governments?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

The thing is, the leaders of Leave all ran clear of the leadership contest, and on the very morning of the result, Farage disowned the NHS promise. Brexiteers want victory without responsibility. They want to point the finger at a speck in someone's eye whilst ignoring the plank that's propping open their eyelids. Even now Brexiteers won't own responsibility for the consequences of their decision, they only want to accuse others of not respecting their decision.

Also, on the electorate: if there is such a simple solution, the government should be able to pass a Bill enacting Brexit. That is how Parliamentary democracy works. However, an election, held after May set article 50 in motion, left the government without the power to do so. This would suggest that the mandate no longer exists. May has already had three goes at her Bill, and failed each time. No deal, which is what the next PM will enact, had even less support than reversing the decision. Rory complains about how the EU's form of proportional representation under-represents smaller parties by the odd seat. But something that has been overwhelmingly rejected by Parliament (by 300 votes IIRC) will be enacted because that's the choice of the Tory members who will choose the next Tory leader. Which is less representative? Which has the greater import?

Why are you fixated on one slogan, and it really was just a slogan?

You're fixated on this one idea even when a lot of Leave voters ignored it.

It's like the idea everyone who voted Leave is a racist, it's a way of "Othering" the opposition and you need to get over it.

[Furunculus]

gets pop-corn ready:

https://unherd.com/2019/04/have-the-...t-perspective/

lots to entertain, but a few choice quotes:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

These accounts make me wonder where this leaves the one in three black and minority ethnic voters who voted for Brexit, the incredibly diverse towns like Birmingham, Luton and Slough which provided majority support for Leave, or the academic studies which show, clearly, how racial prejudice in Britain has been consistently declining since the 1980s. Moreover, how do these accounts of “bigoted” Leavers fit with the growing pile of research we now have that suggests that it is Remainers, not Leavers, who might have a problem with tolerance.

Consistently, Remainers were more likely than Leavers to distance themselves from the other side: while 80% of Leavers are open to having a Remainer acquaintance, only 70% of Remainers feel the same way; while 79% of Leavers are open to having a Remainer co-worker, only 67% of Remainers feel the same way; while 78% of Leavers would not mind having a Remainer living next door, only 65% of Remainers feel the same; while 80% of Leavers would be willing to have a Remainer as a friend, only 61% of Remainers feel the same way; and, lastly, while 75% of Leavers would be willing to have their child enter into a romantic relationship with a Remainer, only 53% of Remainers would want to see their child in a relationship with a Leaver.

The irony is that liberal catastrophisers engage in exactly the same behaviour that they associate with populists and Right-wing extremists; they overgeneralise; they label others; they engage in Manichean ‘good-versus-bad’ dichotomous thinking; they lose perspective; and they become obsessed with apocalyptic-style scenarios.

[rory_20_uk]

Should the winners of the UK plebiscite be held responsible for the promises they made to win? When will we see the extra 350m/wk for the NHS that was promised? I've asked you quite a few times whether you'd be willing to be held responsible for the consequences of Brexit. You said somewhere that, if it all goes tits up, you'd go abroad to find work.

I answer and you choose not to hear.

To reiterate
Promises? Is that sort of like a legal fact but not really? Sort of worthless? One that many leavers never believed? One that you seem obsessed by?
The current situation is due to the last 30 years of policy on further integration.

So your question is lashing out at a straw man, rather than dealing with reality. Don't worry - it is evident you've no reposte.

[rory_20_uk]

The EU overruled plebiscites? Do you have a link for that?
Did the EU do that or the national governments?

So... as long as individual countries that make up the EU do the bad thing, the EU is unaffected although is a creation of a sum of the bad parts. That is amazing logic you've got there!

[Pannonian]

So... as long as individual countries that make up the EU do the bad thing, the EU is unaffected although is a creation of a sum of the bad parts. That is amazing logic you've got there!

Because the EU's method of determining proportion is unfavourable by the odd seat, it is thus acceptable for the Tory membership to determine the course of this country? Remember the government does not have a majority, and the last three times it tried to enact Brexit, it failed to get through the Commons. Yet the next PM, and it is ERG policy to overturn the decisions made by this PM, will be chosen by the Tory membership. Does this represent a legitimate mandate, as you complain that the EU's proportional system does not?

[Pannonian]

Why are you fixated on one slogan, and it really was just a slogan?

You're fixated on this one idea even when a lot of Leave voters ignored it.

It's like the idea everyone who voted Leave is a racist, it's a way of "Othering" the opposition and you need to get over it.

If you don't want to focus on specific promises (and note that Brexiteers highlight Cameron's promise that this is a once in a lifetime referendum), but wish to talk instead about general political theory, how about this? What mandate does Brexit have? What mandate does Brexit have when May is replaced as PM? Leavers crow at "Neverendums", but May has tried thrice to get her Bill through, without success. On the indicative votes, the least popular choice is no deal, which is the only thing specifically ruled out by the Commons. Yet the most influential faction in the Tory party has made no deal its goal. And said faction will supply the next PM, decided on by the Tory membership.

Where is Brexit going? What is the mandate for this destination? See, I'm no longer focusing on a specific promise since you don't like it, and I'm allowing you to answer the question in a form of your choice. It's not a loaded question either, as it's a question that Parliament has tried and failed to answer over the past few months. Will you offer your preferred answer, and explain the mandate supporting it?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

If you don't want to focus on specific promises (and note that Brexiteers highlight Cameron's promise that this is a once in a lifetime referendum), but wish to talk instead about general political theory, how about this? What mandate does Brexit have? What mandate does Brexit have when May is replaced as PM? Leavers crow at "Neverendums", but May has tried thrice to get her Bill through, without success. On the indicative votes, the least popular choice is no deal, which is the only thing specifically ruled out by the Commons. Yet the most influential faction in the Tory party has made no deal its goal. And said faction will supply the next PM, decided on by the Tory membership.

Where is Brexit going? What is the mandate for this destination? See, I'm no longer focusing on a specific promise since you don't like it, and I'm allowing you to answer the question in a form of your choice. It's not a loaded question either, as it's a question that Parliament has tried and failed to answer over the past few months. Will you offer your preferred answer, and explain the mandate supporting it?

In a month it is likely that 75% of the electorate who vote in EU elections will support parties campaigning on the promise to deliver Brexit. The largest single party is projected to be the one with "Brexit" in the name.

As you say, the EU has insisted we have to pass this deal and our elected representatives have three times refused to. The Good Friday Agreement doesn't mandate the Irish Backstop, the EU mandates it, yet it has become the fundamental sticking point.

The ERG didn't start out supporting no deal, their position has become more extreme and intransigent as the EU has also become more entrenched.

[Husar]

So... as long as individual countries that make up the EU do the bad thing, the EU is unaffected although is a creation of a sum of the bad parts. That is amazing logic you've got there!

I don't know where you got that logic from, but it's not the logic that I have.
Your wording made it sound like the EU itself overruled the will of the people in several countries, but this was apparently not really the case.
The whole narrative of "the EU is destroying our national sovereignty and imposing its will on us" does not make sense in cases where the veto of a single national government such as your own could have stopped the process. In these cases you have to ask yourself why your own government didn't veto the thing if your entire nation (that elected that government) finds it so horrible?

Take this for example: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37749236

Belgium cannot sign a key EU trade deal with Canada, Prime Minister Charles Michel has said, because of objections led by its Wallonia region.

[Pannonian]

In a month it is likely that 75% of the electorate who vote in EU elections will support parties campaigning on the promise to deliver Brexit. The largest single party is projected to be the one with "Brexit" in the name.

As you say, the EU has insisted we have to pass this deal and our elected representatives have three times refused to. The Good Friday Agreement doesn't mandate the Irish Backstop, the EU mandates it, yet it has become the fundamental sticking point.

The ERG didn't start out supporting no deal, their position has become more extreme and intransigent as the EU has also become more entrenched.

If Brexit is such a done thing, it should be easy to pass the legislation to enact it. That is how our Parliamentary democracy works. And if you want to point to the Brexit party being the biggest single party, let me point out that EU membership won the biggest share for a single manifesto. Leave was fragmented to the extent that you tell us to ignore concrete promises made by Leave, and refuse to own responsibility for any Leave manifesto. ERG want no deal. ERG will choose our next PM and thus government. Do you agree with no deal?

On the Irish back stop: if the EU is being unreasonably intransigent, why not negotiate directly with Ireland? The GFA is a bilateral treaty between the UK and Ireland, after all, with sponsorship from the US and enabled by the EU. But it's not just the EU insisting on the GFA being kept. The US has also said that the UK can forget about any agreements with the US if the GFA is broken. In all of this, it is just the UK, and specifically the most influential faction of the Tory party that will produce our next PM, that has said that the GFA will be unilaterally broken. Ireland has insisted on keeping it, and the EU and US have both backed it. But despite all that, in the eyes of Brexiteers, it's the EU who's being unreasonably intransigent.

In your eyes, what is the future of Brexit? How will it be enacted? May wants to have a fourth go, in a form that has already been rejected by Ireland, the US and the EU. Is May's Brexit minus the GFA the Brexit that we will have?