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Thread: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

  1. #2851

    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...post2053792687
    "I am a negative-liberty classical liberal, believing in:

    The market economy rather than social democracy
    Taxation to achieve public services rather redistribution
    Regulation by demonstrable-harm rather than the precautionary-principle
    An activist foreign policy rather than platitudes about soft-power
    A majoritarian electoral system with adversarial politics rather than coalitions and consensus politics

    EU membership might suit those who take the opposite view, but I see it as a ratchet that ceaslessly works to lever british society from the norms that are my preference."

    https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...post2053792539
    "Chequers achieves:
    1. No regression of flanking policies, which is better than full adherence
    2. Common rule-book for Goods, but freedom for Services
    3. The ability to join TTIP, which is a worthy goal for geopolitical reasons alone (europe will be a backwater in the 21st century, all the fun will be in asia)"
    You don't have to repeat yourself. Prison abolition is consistent with a society that respects the liberty of individuals, but there's a missing link between the ideology and what's actually happening in the world. There's a missing link between 'I don't like the norms and politics of EU membership' and 'leaving the EU under any circumstances realizes my independent preferences.' To say nothing of the costs you would impose on others.
    Vitiate Man.

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  2. #2852
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    welcome to the crux of the demos problem; being able to live with the kratos.
    you'd work to let that lunatic corbyn be prime minister which i think is insane, but i'm not gonna throw my toys out the pram and insist you live in another country.
    Does the Scottish Parliament get a say in altering the status of the citizens over which it has authority?

    And since when have I ever worked to let that lunatic Corbyn be prime minister? I despise the man, probably with more grounding in knowledge of him than you do.
    Last edited by Pannonian; 06-19-2019 at 01:32.

  3. #2853
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    You don't have to repeat yourself. Prison abolition is consistent with a society that respects the liberty of individuals, but there's a missing link between the ideology and what's actually happening in the world. There's a missing link between 'I don't like the norms and politics of EU membership' and 'leaving the EU under any circumstances realizes my independent preferences.' To say nothing of the costs you would impose on others.
    Try the congress of the state of Indiana voting to set pi to 3.2.

  4. #2854
    Formerly Wigferth Ironwall Senior Member Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    In all this time, setting aside contesting the ideological content of these positions, I just haven't been able to understand the logical connection from the above to desiring Brexit in real world conditions. I sympathize with those who seek prison abolition because they think it is a fundamentally unjust practice for the state to incarcerate people. That doesn't mean I'm going to support emptying all the prisons tomorrow without contingency just because the political power to do so exists and "abolition means abolition". And at least abolition is conceptually simple to implement: there are people in prison; make them not be in prison by physically moving them out. Making Britain not be in EU is not as simple, and likely carries a much higher social and economic cost.

    For a lark, imagine PM Corbyn obtained a narrow-majority referendum result to "nationalize every corner shop." I guess that's the will of the people. Let no one here say they're not a radical...

    It profits a man nothing to lose the world for his soul - but for England?
    Personally, I believe the EU is fundamentally flawed, and that Britain is not compatible with the EU. We've had one foot out the door for two decades and our leaving would seem to be inevitable by default - unless we adopt the Euro and abolish the monarchy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    Does the Scottish Parliament get a say in altering the status of the citizens over which it has authority?
    Yes - it does.

    The English and Welsh largely voted to leave, the Irish were split between those who live near the border and those who live near the coast. The only regions that voted very strongly for Remain were Scotland and Greater London - the Irish vote was less enthusiastic. So, we're currently leaving because of that. If the Scottish collectively decide that they're more European than British then they will secede from the UK, as they are entitled to do.

    You want Brexiteers (horrible word, hate it) to "take responsibility" but all the Leave vote did was vote differently to the Remain vote. This may give the Scottish Nationalists enough wind to secede but it's won't be "because of Brexit", it will be because many of them want to secede anyway because they no longer feel British and don't want to be part of Great Britain anymore.

    I would hazard that the ultimate collapse of the UK has been coming since 1997 when Tony Blair gave the Scots their own Parliament, giving the Scottish ultra-nationalists a platform that allowed Alex Salmond to pretend to be a real politician and not a racist bigot who likes to feel up his secretary and take Russian money.
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  5. #2855
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    You don't have to repeat yourself. Prison abolition is consistent with a society that respects the liberty of individuals, but there's a missing link between the ideology and what's actually happening in the world. There's a missing link between 'I don't like the norms and politics of EU membership' and 'leaving the EU under any circumstances realizes my independent preferences.' To say nothing of the costs you would impose on others.
    there is no missing link.

    i look at the enormous acceleration of criminal law and regulation and I see harmonisation to the eu norm.
    i look at over-regulation in pursuit of the precautionary principle and i see the same.

    I also see us as a thorn in the side of our good neighbours in that we're holding them back from their ambition in how they want to see their society operate.

    everyone wins.
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

  6. #2856
    Formerly Wigferth Ironwall Senior Member Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    there is no missing link.

    i look at the enormous acceleration of criminal law and regulation and I see harmonisation to the eu norm.
    i look at over-regulation in pursuit of the precautionary principle and i see the same.

    I also see us as a thorn in the side of our good neighbours in that we're holding them back from their ambition in how they want to see their society operate.

    everyone wins.
    The acceleration of criminal law is a British fetish - not an EU one. Consider, for example, the sale of firearms and knives in other countries.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."

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  7. #2857
    Ni dieu ni maître! Senior Member a completely inoffensive name's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    Personally, I believe the EU is fundamentally flawed, and that Britain is not compatible with the EU. We've had one foot out the door for two decades and our leaving would seem to be inevitable by default - unless we adopt the Euro and abolish the monarchy.
    Mate, it's looking like Britain is not even compatible with itself.

    As long as you keep sending Bond movies and Samuel Smith over to my corner of California, you do you.
    In all these papers we see a love of honest work, an aversion to shams, a caution in the enunciation of conclusions, a distrust of rash generalizations and speculations based on uncertain premises. He was never anxious to add one more guess on doubtful matters in the hope of hitting the truth, or what might pass as such for a time, but was always ready to take infinite pains in the most careful testing of every theory. With these qualities was united a modesty which forbade the pushing of his own claims and desired no reputation except the unsought tribute of competent judges.

  8. #2858
    Clan Clan InsaneApache's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    I'm asking this specifically of IA though, as he's said that Farage is a good bloke whom he agrees with. So I'm asking him if he agrees with Farage on Brexit.
    OK one last time then I'm done.

    This is no longer about Brexit but rather about the legislators ignoring the will of the people. It's about democratic principles.

    You either believe in the democratic process or you don't. You can no more be a 'little bit' democratic then you can be a 'little bit' pregnant.

    Democracy relies on the losers accepting the result, which you obviously don't.

    How about this then.

    A general election is called and Labour win. Then all those who didn't vote Labour say that there should be a second general election because all the people who voted Labour were low information, didn't know what they were voting for and a bit thick. If not bigoted.

    Can you see now the dangers inherent in that way of thinking?

    Perhaps you ought to move to North Korea, they think like that over there. You'd fit right in.
    Last edited by InsaneApache; Yesterday at 06:09.
    There are times I wish they’d just ban everything- baccy and beer, burgers and bangers, and all the rest- once and for all. Instead, they creep forward one apparently tiny step at a time. It’s like being executed with a bacon slicer.

    “Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedy.”

    To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticise.

    "The purpose of a university education for Left / Liberals is to attain all the politically correct attitudes towards minorties, and the financial means to live as far away from them as possible."

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  9. #2859
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by InsaneApache View Post
    OK one last time then I'm done.

    This is no longer about Brexit but rather about the legislators ignoring the will of the people. It's about democratic principles.

    You either believe in the democratic process or you don't. You can no more be a 'little bit' democratic then you can be a 'little bit' pregnant.

    Democracy relies on the losers accepting the result, which you obviously don't.

    How about this then.

    A general election is called and Labour win. Then all those who didn't vote Labour say that there should be a second general election because all the people who voted Labour were low information, didn't know what they were voting for and a bit thick. If not bigoted.

    Can you see now the dangers inherent in that way of thinking?

    Perhaps you ought to move to North Korea, they think like that over there. You'd fit right in.
    Farage told the Mirror: “In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way. If the remain campaign win two-thirds to one-third that ends it.”

    Quote Originally Posted by InsaneApache View Post
    (Nigel Farage is a) Top man who believes in democracy, unlike the main parties. This is no longer about Brexit it is now about the political class declaring war on democracy. They will get it good and hard this Thursday.
    Do you agree with Nigel Farage on Brexit? Do you agree with Nigel Farage on democracy, for that matter?

  10. #2860
    Formerly Wigferth Ironwall Senior Member Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    The difference between what Farage said and what you are saying is that he said a narrow result would not be "the end" whereas you are saying a narrow result was illegitimate.

    =/=
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."


  11. #2861
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by InsaneApache View Post
    You either believe in the democratic process or you don't. You can no more be a 'little bit' democratic then you can be a 'little bit' pregnant.
    Well, if a non-binding referendum can be binding, who knows what else is possible.


    "Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu

  12. #2862
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    The difference between what Farage said and what you are saying is that he said a narrow result would not be "the end" whereas you are saying a narrow result was illegitimate.

    =/=
    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    And BTW, do you agree that 52-48 is not a decisive enough margin to be the end of the matter?
    Please explain. And BTW, I directed the question specifically at IA because, on the one hand, he thinks highly of Farage as an icon of democracy. And on the other hand, IA reckons we should have to wait 40 years before we revisit this matter.

    I accept that we will be leaving the EU as a result of the referendum. I demand only that those who wanted to leave should be held responsible for the consequences of leaving, and that Leave politicians, as the side that won, should be held to what they said during the campaign. Is this undemocratic as IA accuses me of being?

    Youse lot won. Take ownership of your victory, instead of trying to evade responsibility.

  13. #2863
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Another note for IA: you reckon that not accepting the will of the victors amounts to the denial of democracy. I disagree. It may have escaped your attention that we do not only have a loyal government, but we also have a loyal opposition. You are denying that any kind of opposition can be loyal, that we should all get behind the victors.

  14. #2864
    Clan Clan InsaneApache's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    I'm beginning to lose the will to live.

    Another note for IA: you reckon that not accepting the will of the victors amounts to the denial of democracy. I disagree. It may have escaped your attention that we do not only have a loyal government, but we also have a loyal opposition. You are denying that any kind of opposition can be loyal, that we should all get behind the victors.
    It's too late for that. The time for opposing the departure of the EU was before the vote not after it. Jesus wept lad wtf is wrong with you.

    I demand only that those who wanted to leave should be held responsible for the consequences of leaving
    OK now I think you're being deliberately obtuse. Do you hold the electorate to same standards in a general election? If not, why not? I voted for an outcome not a process.

    By your thinking anyone who voted for New Labour is a corrupt fascist warmonger and as entertaining as that might be, it's plain wrong.

    Just because the politicians have cocked up doesn't make me or anyone who voted culpable.

    Oh and the main consequences of us leaving is that we get to fire those onanists in Parliament when they behave in such a manner.

    Well, if a non-binding referendum can be binding, who knows what else is possible.
    There's an old adage in England usually ascribed to the legal profession.

    "Don't ask a question unless you know the answer."

    BTW I see Herr Merkell was doing the 'shake and vac' yesterday, do her batteries need replacing?
    Last edited by InsaneApache; Yesterday at 16:30. Reason: losing the will to live.
    There are times I wish they’d just ban everything- baccy and beer, burgers and bangers, and all the rest- once and for all. Instead, they creep forward one apparently tiny step at a time. It’s like being executed with a bacon slicer.

    “Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedy.”

    To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticise.

    "The purpose of a university education for Left / Liberals is to attain all the politically correct attitudes towards minorties, and the financial means to live as far away from them as possible."

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  15. #2865
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by InsaneApache View Post
    I'm beginning to lose the will to live.

    It's too late for that. The time for opposing the departure of the EU was before the vote not after it. Jesus wept lad wtf is wrong with you.
    Can you read?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    I accept that we will be leaving the EU as a result of the referendum. I demand only that those who wanted to leave should be held responsible for the consequences of leaving, and that Leave politicians, as the side that won, should be held to what they said during the campaign. Is this undemocratic as IA accuses me of being?

    Youse lot won. Take ownership of your victory, instead of trying to evade responsibility.
    BTW, do you agree that 52-48 is too small a margin for this to be the end of the matter?

  16. #2866
    Clan Clan InsaneApache's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    cross post.

    BTW, do you agree that 52-48 is too small a margin for this to be the end of the matter?
    The majority won so yes, it is the end of the matter.
    Last edited by InsaneApache; Yesterday at 16:32.
    There are times I wish they’d just ban everything- baccy and beer, burgers and bangers, and all the rest- once and for all. Instead, they creep forward one apparently tiny step at a time. It’s like being executed with a bacon slicer.

    “Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedy.”

    To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticise.

    "The purpose of a university education for Left / Liberals is to attain all the politically correct attitudes towards minorties, and the financial means to live as far away from them as possible."

  17. #2867
    Formerly Wigferth Ironwall Senior Member Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    Please explain. And BTW, I directed the question specifically at IA because, on the one hand, he thinks highly of Farage as an icon of democracy. And on the other hand, IA reckons we should have to wait 40 years before we revisit this matter.

    I accept that we will be leaving the EU as a result of the referendum. I demand only that those who wanted to leave should be held responsible for the consequences of leaving, and that Leave politicians, as the side that won, should be held to what they said during the campaign. Is this undemocratic as IA accuses me of being?

    Youse lot won. Take ownership of your victory, instead of trying to evade responsibility.
    The consequence of voting to Leave is that we are Leaving.

    "Demanding" that Leave voters "take responsibility" for Scotland possibly seceding is rather like me demanding you and Husar take responsibility for the UK Brexiting because you support the Lisbon Treaty.

    Let's look at this another way:

    If Brexit results in a customers border between NI and RI is that the responsibility of Leave voters?

    Answer: Yes.

    If Brexit results in an uptick in paramilitary violence due to the prospect of the return of a customs border, is that the responsibility of Leave voters?

    Answer: No.

    Individual responsibility and collective responsibility end when the next individual or collective makes a decision. Otherwise responsibility could regress backwards to the beginning of recorded history.

    So, there you go - Julius Caesar is responsible for Brexit.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."


  18. #2868
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by InsaneApache View Post
    cross post.



    The majority won so yes, it is the end of the matter.
    Do you agree with Farage on Brexit and the exercise of democracy?

  19. #2869
    Clan Clan InsaneApache's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    Do you agree with Farage on Brexit and the exercise of democracy?
    I agree with Dave.

    There are times I wish they’d just ban everything- baccy and beer, burgers and bangers, and all the rest- once and for all. Instead, they creep forward one apparently tiny step at a time. It’s like being executed with a bacon slicer.

    “Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedy.”

    To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticise.

    "The purpose of a university education for Left / Liberals is to attain all the politically correct attitudes towards minorties, and the financial means to live as far away from them as possible."

  20. #2870
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    The consequence of voting to Leave is that we are Leaving.

    "Demanding" that Leave voters "take responsibility" for Scotland possibly seceding is rather like me demanding you and Husar take responsibility for the UK Brexiting because you support the Lisbon Treaty.

    Let's look at this another way:

    If Brexit results in a customers border between NI and RI is that the responsibility of Leave voters?

    Answer: Yes.

    If Brexit results in an uptick in paramilitary violence due to the prospect of the return of a customs border, is that the responsibility of Leave voters?

    Answer: No.

    Individual responsibility and collective responsibility end when the next individual or collective makes a decision. Otherwise responsibility could regress backwards to the beginning of recorded history.

    So, there you go - Julius Caesar is responsible for Brexit.
    What about the Tory members? Direct questions on the price they are willing to pay in order to get Brexit. A majority are willing to accept the break up of the union if that is the price of Brexit. That possibility was certainly raised during the campaign, that the indy ref vote was contingent on then current conditions, that one of the major arguments against independence, that Scotland would not be automatically in the EU post independence as the UK would inherit this status, would be moot in the event of Brexit. Despite that argument being raised, you lot voted Leave anyway. Should you not be responsible for ignoring this? You've tried to hive off responsibility to the Scots. Shouldn't you accept at least part of the responsibility, by ignoring the effects that your vote would have on Scotland?

    BTW, you say that Scotland split away from the UK as a result of 1997. From what Scots said before that, it was Thatcher and her experiments in Scotland, notably the poll tax, that made them look away from the UK. That Westminster used Scotland as a testbed for potentially unpopular policies that may or may not see light of day in England. And now, with Brexit, you've imposed the granddaddy of unpopular policies on Scotland. But no, it's the will of the Scots, and nothing to do with you. Even though you were told the Scots didn't want it, and you decided to give it to them anyway.

  21. #2871
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by InsaneApache View Post
    I agree with Dave.

    I asked specifically about Nigel Farage. Why are you talking about David Starkey?

    Quote Originally Posted by InsaneApache View Post
    (Nigel Farage is a) Top man who believes in democracy, unlike the main parties. This is no longer about Brexit it is now about the political class declaring war on democracy. They will get it good and hard this Thursday.
    Do you agree with Farage on democracy?

  22. #2872
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    I suggest celebrating it when the thread reaches the 100th page.
    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
    The article exists for a reason yes, I did not write it...

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    Clan Clan InsaneApache's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    I asked specifically about Nigel Farage. Why are you talking about David Starkey?



    Do you agree with Farage on democracy?
    Blimey.

    You can admire a politician without agreeing with everything they stand for. I posted Starkey as that is more in tune with my view.
    There are times I wish they’d just ban everything- baccy and beer, burgers and bangers, and all the rest- once and for all. Instead, they creep forward one apparently tiny step at a time. It’s like being executed with a bacon slicer.

    “Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedy.”

    To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticise.

    "The purpose of a university education for Left / Liberals is to attain all the politically correct attitudes towards minorties, and the financial means to live as far away from them as possible."

  24. #2874

    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    Personally, I believe the EU is fundamentally flawed, and that Britain is not compatible with the EU. We've had one foot out the door for two decades and our leaving would seem to be inevitable by default - unless we adopt the Euro and abolish the monarchy.
    Clearly leaving is not inevitable, but requires specific input and effort. What do you believe the EU has to do with abolishing monarchy? You will note there are numerous monarchies in EU or EEA.

    Still the missing link remains, the connection between concluding that "the EU is fundamentally flawed" and "we can and shall revoke our membership." One cannot lead to the other alone unless you have no other political beliefs or principles.

    Quote Originally Posted by InsaneApache View Post
    cross post.

    The majority won so yes, it is the end of the matter.
    What a disturbingly-Orwellian conception of "democracy." Let us imagine a world in which Corbyn's Labour promulgated a referendum offering a binary of "Continue with capitalism" or "Transition to socialism", there was a 52% result in favor of socialism, and Labour proceeded on a quest to chaotically unravel the political system without any clear understanding of goals or underlying socioeconomics, and rebuked any dissent as a treasonous impediment to realizing "the will of the people" because "socialism means socialism" (and socialism is what the party says it is).

    It is Orwellian because it rhetorically abuses the concept into inversion of its original meaning for the sake of repressing opponents, an anti-ideal that has no descriptive content but merely exists to be tautologically disappointed by those who don't conform with your vision.

    Just because the politicians have cocked up doesn't make me or anyone who voted culpable.
    The problem lies not with the politicians who cannot deliver what you desire, but with those desiring it in folly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    Individual responsibility and collective responsibility end when the next individual or collective makes a decision. Otherwise responsibility could regress backwards to the beginning of recorded history.

    So, there you go - Julius Caesar is responsible for Brexit.
    If using "responsibility" with the sense of accountability - you think people are responsible for decisions only up to the point those decisions have unfavorable consequences? On the contrary, if you choose to eat a kilogram of assorted cheeses and you do so despite being told that you are lactose intolerant, you are responsible for the eating of the cheese and any subsequent problems with digestion. If you set fire to a house, you are responsible for the consequence of the house burning and any collateral spread of fire; what you personally wished the fire would achieve is irrelevant and can only be a mitigating factor in terms of what liability is juridically assigned to you.
    Vitiate Man.

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  25. #2875
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    Clearly leaving is not inevitable, but requires specific input and effort. What do you believe the EU has to do with abolishing monarchy? You will note there are numerous monarchies in EU or EEA.

    Still the missing link remains, the connection between concluding that "the EU is fundamentally flawed" and "we can and shall revoke our membership." One cannot lead to the other alone unless you have no other political beliefs or principles.
    And in the poll of Tory members (who will be choosing our next PM), they are willing to see the union break up if this is the price of Brexit. Then look at the Leave arguments about how the EU is different from the UK, how the EU is fundamentally incompatible with the UK etc. If Brexit is fundamentally about the British identity, how does it square with the willingness to end Britain as an entity?

  26. #2876
    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

    So yeah... Boris Johnston as Prime Minister.
    "We are living in space-age times but there's too many of us thinking with stone-age minds" - Daryl Davis
    "What makes something right or wrong?" | How to spot a Humanist
    "Men of Quality do not fear Equality." # | "Belief doesn't change facts. Facts, if you are reasonable, should change your beliefs." RG

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