EXIT NEGOTIATIONS

[Pannonian]

Attachment 22657

Is that really the number 1 choice on that list?

He certainly is. And if you don't believe him, he's got photos of the MPs' ballot papers. Secret ballots isn't a necessary part of democracy according to our next PM. Heck, our former Brexit secretary doesn't think this country needs a Parliament at all, and would rather suspend it.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

He certainly is. And if you don't believe him, he's got photos of the MPs' ballot papers. Secret ballots isn't a necessary part of democracy according to our next PM. Heck, our former Brexit secretary doesn't think this country needs a Parliament at all, and would rather suspend it.

You do know how a secret ballot works, right?

Also - you do know elections in the UK aren't actually by secret ballot? They give you a numbered ballot paper and record it against your name.

Anyway - of the other contenders who passed through to the next stage one has dropped out, four are more loathed than Boris for various reasons and almost nobody had heard of Rory Stewart until a couple of weeks ago.

So, really what did you expect?

[Pannonian]

You do know how a secret ballot works, right?

Also - you do know elections in the UK aren't actually by secret ballot? They give you a numbered ballot paper and record it against your name.

Anyway - of the other contenders who passed through to the next stage one has dropped out, four are more loathed than Boris for various reasons and almost nobody had heard of Rory Stewart until a couple of weeks ago.

So, really what did you expect?

Do candidates generally ask for photographic proof that you've voted for them?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Do candidates generally ask for photographic proof that you've voted for them?

Maybe people sent them to show loyalty?

[Pannonian]

Maybe people sent them to show loyalty?

Reports are that he asked for them. Why did he feel able to ask for them? Why did they feel obliged to do so? The 1922 committee have now banned phones from wherever it is that they vote, so it's definitely not regarded as above board. But he will win and be our next PM regardless. I wonder what the UN's relevant body would make of an election involving something like this.

[Furunculus]

I wonder what the UN's relevant body would make of an election involving something like this.

i imagine we would take the UN's thoughts on the internal electoral processes of the tory party with just as much seriousness as we do of their 'special' rapporteurs wailing's on the subject of the UK social benefits system.

seriously, why would the UN be deemed to have any legitimacy to speak on the subject...?

[Pannonian]

i imagine we would take the UN's thoughts on the internal electoral processes of the tory party with just as much seriousness as we do of their 'special' rapporteurs wailing's on the subject of the UK social benefits system.

seriously, why would the UN be deemed to have any legitimacy to speak on the subject...?

Minimum international standards no longer matter to you now? Having looked it up, the UK has an Electoral Commission that takes care of such things, although the referendum infamously circumvented its workings (as we have a parliamentary democracy that is not designed for referendums). EU-related elections has its own body as established by the Council of Europe. I'm pretty sure both bodies would, in any elections overseen by them, disqualify any candidate requiring voters to provide proof that they've cast their vote accordingly. It's one of the basic principles of democracy, to protect voters from intimidation.

[Furunculus]

Minimum international standards no longer matter to you now?

Now...? They have never mattered to me.
I care about british standards when it comes to evaluating whether british expectations from its democratic processes and institutions are up to scratch.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Reports are that he asked for them. Why did he feel able to ask for them? Why did they feel obliged to do so? The 1922 committee have now banned phones from wherever it is that they vote, so it's definitely not regarded as above board. But he will win and be our next PM regardless. I wonder what the UN's relevant body would make of an election involving something like this.

You know you're technically allowed to photograph your own ballot and post it on facebook, right?

Whether you should or not is a different question.

[Husar]

You know you're technically allowed to photograph your own ballot and post it on facebook, right?

Have to prove it's your own by having the signature on the photo though.

[Beskar]

You know you're technically allowed to photograph your own ballot and post it on facebook, right?
Whether you should or not is a different question.

Phillippus, I hope you voted for the Beskar Party or I am going to make things very difficult for you. Forget about that promotion you rightfully deserve. You need to clearly sign your voting slip and provide it to me. I demand complete loyalty, you are either with me or against me. Doesn't matter if it is called a 'Secret Ballot' or not. Do it or prepare for the consequences. [now add some actual teeth to this threat.]


As you see, you are not having a choice in voting. It is pure intimidation. Inspired by your comment, loathsome tactics by loathsome people. Makes my jokey hyperbole about them being the 'Villain Society' scarier than the cartoony implication.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Phillippus, I hope you voted for the Beskar Party or I am going to make things very difficult for you. Forget about that promotion you rightfully deserve. You need to clearly sign your voting slip and provide it to me. I demand complete loyalty, you are either with me or against me. Doesn't matter if it is called a 'Secret Ballot' or not. Do it or prepare for the consequences. [now add some actual teeth to this threat.]


As you see, you are not having a choice in voting. It is pure intimidation. Inspired by your comment, loathsome tactics by loathsome people. Makes my jokey hyperbole about them being the 'Villain Society' scarier than the cartoony implication.

I think you're confusing fear and sycophancy.

I don't approve but, really, Boris is not some evil genius. If people are trying to impress him it's because they know he's going to win and they think they'll benefit.

In your comparison your threats only work if I WANT to work for you. I have another option - I can wait you out, when you have a breakdown or burnout I can approach your replacement and ask HIM to give me the job nobody wants.

In thee meantime I can sit back and enjoy my coffee in peace.

[Pannonian]

Police are investigating five allegations of electoral irregularities related to the Peterborough byelection, which Labour won by 683 votes.

Three of these relate to postal votes, one allegation is of bribery and corruption and the fifth is of a breach of the privacy of the vote, Cambridgeshire police have confirmed.
...
Police have been asked to investigate a claim, made on social media, that an individual burned more than 1,000 votes destined for the Brexit party; and that some voters were observed taking photographs of ballot papers, leading to concerns that they were fulfilling some form of contract.

Police look into claims of irregularities at Peterborough byelection

[InsaneApache]

Colour me surprised.

Effin Labour at it again.

[Beskar]

Conservatives are all about that Brexit (Except for when it comes to Corbyn).

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Pannonian]

Colour me surprised.

Effin Labour at it again.

Any thoughts on Johnson doing the same?

And BTW, do you agree that 52-48 is not a decisive enough margin to be the end of the matter?

[Pannonian]

Do the Brexiteers agree with the Tory members? Would you be happy to see the break up of the UK if that was the price of Brexit?

[rory_20_uk]

How much evidence is required that the system in the UK is broken beyond redemption in its current form?

Bring in PR at both local and national level - if required get GCP Grey in as an expert to advise which approach!

For this level of root and branch change would require either a very brave Government who might well be turkeys voting for Christmas or the Monarch doing something besides reading prepared speeches / giving out awards to Government picked cronies and supporting Good Works.

So... I'm not super optimistic.

[InsaneApache]

Any thoughts on Johnson doing the same?

And BTW, do you agree that 52-48 is not a decisive enough margin to be the end of the matter?

No idea what you're on about with Johnson. LBJ perhaps?

As for the second one, I assume you mean the referendum result.

Seriously mate go and get some help.

[rory_20_uk]

Do the Brexiteers agree with the Tory members? Would you be happy to see the break up of the UK if that was the price of Brexit?

I think we should just continue to pay Northern Ireland and Scotland money, let them have their own laws and patiently wait until they choose to leave.

[Pannonian]

No idea what you're on about with Johnson. LBJ perhaps?

As for the second one, I assume you mean the referendum result.

Seriously mate go and get some help.

Do you agree with Farage on Brexit?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Do you agree with Farage on Brexit?

If Brexit is not legitimate because of the referendum result then neither is the Maastricht Treaty.

The Referendum result was valid within the terms set down by the relevant law on holding the referendum which was supported by all parties.

ALL parties.

Look, if you think Brexit is a bad idea and has proven to be a bad idea and therefore we should hold another referendum then fine - you're entitled to that opinion.

HOWEVER, the members here who supported Brexit are not necessarily "Farageists" or racists, or idiots. For the last hundred pages you've been asking the same questions and getting the same answer.

At least twice you've tried to attack me with Hong Kong and twice I've said it was wrong to hand the territory back to China.

You keep bringing up NATO and the UN and we have to keep reminding you that we are opposed to the EU because it perpetually drags people towards a federal European State without any major parties in any country really opposing it, and it enacts treaty reform to CREATE that state without Referendums.

It's really less that the EU is bad per se and much more that is doesn't work because the ruling class are pushing reform and integration faster than the people will except - hence Germany "loaning" Greece money after the crash as opposed to the ECB or EU Commission simply "making funds available". That happened because the German people are unwilling to accept a lower standard of living for the sake of the Greeks.

[Pannonian]

If Brexit is not legitimate because of the referendum result then neither is the Maastricht Treaty.

The Referendum result was valid within the terms set down by the relevant law on holding the referendum which was supported by all parties.

ALL parties.

Look, if you think Brexit is a bad idea and has proven to be a bad idea and therefore we should hold another referendum then fine - you're entitled to that opinion.

HOWEVER, the members here who supported Brexit are not necessarily "Farageists" or racists, or idiots. For the last hundred pages you've been asking the same questions and getting the same answer.

I'm asking this specifically of IA though, as he's said that Farage is a good bloke whom he agrees with. So I'm asking him if he agrees with Farage on Brexit.

Edit: what do you think of the poll results on what Tory members are willing to accept for Brexit? They're the people who will choose our next PM.

[Furunculus]

This is and always has been as question of who is “us”.

To which group are we willing to trust there is sufficient convergence of aims and expectations that can subsume our personal ambitions to that of the group.
that applies to the uk in the EU, just as it applies to scotland in the uk.

that poll of tory members is not about choosing to eject scotland so we can exit the eu, that remains a [choice] for scotland to make.

I'm a unionist, i hope they remain in the union because i consider scotland “us”.

[Pannonian]

This is and always has been as question of who is “us”.

To which group are we willing to trust there is sufficient convergence of aims and expectations that can subsume our personal ambitions to that of the group.
that applies to the uk in the EU, just as it applies to scotland in the uk.

that poll of tory members is not about choosing to eject scotland so we can exit the eu, that remains a [choice] for scotland to make.

I'm a unionist, i hope they remain in the union because i consider scotland “us”.

The Tory members (those in the poll) will choose the next PM, who will set out the government's plans for Brexit. Said PM will take his vote into account when setting out those plans, and his constituency has indicated that it will be willing to accept the loss of Northern Ireland, Scotland, the Tory party and significant damage to the economy as part of those plans, as long as the government takes the UK out of the EU. It's democratically pious to say that it's Scotland's decision whether or not to stay in the UK, but that is, once again, evading responsibility for the UK's policies that influence that decision.

Throughout my life, I have always regarded myself as dual British and European. Thanks to Brexit, I may no longer be either. Ich bin ein Unionist.

[Montmorency]

It's really less that the EU is bad per se and much more that is doesn't work because the ruling class are pushing reform and integration faster than the people will except - hence Germany "loaning" Greece money after the crash as opposed to the ECB or EU Commission simply "making funds available". That happened because the German people are unwilling to accept a lower standard of living for the sake of the Greeks.

This is and always has been as question of who is “us”.

To which group are we willing to trust there is sufficient convergence of aims and expectations that can subsume our personal ambitions to that of the group.
that applies to the uk in the EU, just as it applies to scotland in the uk.

that poll of tory members is not about choosing to eject scotland so we can exit the eu, that remains a [choice] for scotland to make.

I'm a unionist, i hope they remain in the union because i consider scotland “us”.

In all this time, setting aside contesting the ideological content of these positions, I just haven't been able to understand the logical connection from the above to desiring Brexit in real world conditions. I sympathize with those who seek prison abolition because they think it is a fundamentally unjust practice for the state to incarcerate people. That doesn't mean I'm going to support emptying all the prisons tomorrow without contingency just because the political power to do so exists and "abolition means abolition". And at least abolition is conceptually simple to implement: there are people in prison; make them not be in prison by physically moving them out. Making Britain not be in EU is not as simple, and likely carries a much higher social and economic cost.

For a lark, imagine PM Corbyn obtained a narrow-majority referendum result to "nationalize every corner shop." I guess that's the will of the people. Let no one here say they're not a radical...

It profits a man nothing to lose the world for his soul - but for England?

[Furunculus]

It's democratically pious to say that it's Scotland's decision whether or not to stay in the UK, but that is, once again, evading responsibility for the UK's policies that influence that decision.

no, it is... quite literally... their decision.
we even let them have referendums and border polls to decide whether [we] are [us] to [them].

[Pannonian]

no, it is... quite literally... their decision.
we even let them have referendums and border polls to decide whether [we] are [us] to [them].

So we implement a decision that they're overwhelmingly against, overriding their constitutional rights in doing so, and you pass off any subsequent vote for independence as their decision and nothing to do with you? Do Brexiteers ever take ownership of the consequences of their decisions?

[Furunculus]

In all this time, setting aside contesting the ideological content of these positions, I just haven't been able to understand the logical connection from the above to desiring Brexit in real world conditions.

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...post2053792687
"I am a negative-liberty classical liberal, believing in:

The market economy rather than social democracy
Taxation to achieve public services rather redistribution
Regulation by demonstrable-harm rather than the precautionary-principle
An activist foreign policy rather than platitudes about soft-power
A majoritarian electoral system with adversarial politics rather than coalitions and consensus politics

EU membership might suit those who take the opposite view, but I see it as a ratchet that ceaslessly works to lever british society from the norms that are my preference."

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...post2053792539
"Chequers achieves:
1. No regression of flanking policies, which is better than full adherence
2. Common rule-book for Goods, but freedom for Services
3. The ability to join TTIP, which is a worthy goal for geopolitical reasons alone (europe will be a backwater in the 21st century, all the fun will be in asia)"

[Furunculus]

So we implement a decision that they're overwhelmingly against, overriding their constitutional rights in doing so, and you pass off any subsequent vote for independence as their decision and nothing to do with you? Do Brexiteers ever take ownership of the consequences of their decisions?

welcome to the crux of the demos problem; being able to live with the kratos.
you'd work to let that lunatic corbyn be prime minister which i think is insane, but i'm not gonna throw my toys out the pram and insist you live in another country.