UK General Election 2017

[Furunculus]

Well they do that. We had it two times. The referendum for a EU-constitution was sabotaged, a major no was neglected after a minorchange. Same with the rediculous associaton-treayty with Ukrainian criminals, they just laid on an extra empty paper and it was not the same thing we voted against anymore.

it may well be how the eu acts, but that is irrelevant.

this is about my expectations of british democracy.
if we choose chaos we deserve to burn. adversity always returns, thrive or die.

[Furunculus]

That largely confirms what I've said, in more detail, and perhaps with more emphasis. The DUP may back lesser political ties with the EU, but they're big on the economic ties. Which means no hard Brexit, and an end to the grandstanding nonsense May was indulging in.

what is this hard brexit of which you speak?

to me it means acrimony and wto terms, not whether we escape the clutches of the ecj (inshallah!), or leave the great tariff wall, i.e. the customs union.

no one [seeks] a hard brexit.

[Pannonian]

what is this hard brexit of which you speak?

to me it means acrimony and wto terms, not whether we escape the clutches of the ecj (inshallah!), or leave the great tariff wall, i.e. the customs union.

no one [seeks] a hard brexit.

"No deal is better than a bad deal."

"Red, white and blue Brexit."

"Brexit means Brexit."

"A stitch in time saves nine."

[Fragony]

it may well be how the eu acts, but that is irrelevant.

this is about my expectations of british democracy.
if we choose chaos we deserve to burn. adversity always returns, thrive or die.

I'd go for burning. It even looks nice, bring sauages if it burns really well. And beer

[Furunculus]

"No deal is better than a bad deal."

"Red, white and blue Brexit."

"Brexit means Brexit."

"A stitch in time saves nine."

Your confusing means with ends.

[Furunculus]

I'd go for burning. It even looks nice, bring sauages if it burns really well. And beer

I dont expect things to be safe, it only allows people to avoid problems. Face them.

[Pannonian]

Your confusing means with ends.

So what is the end point now that May has sought a clearer mandate?

[Fragony]

I dont expect things to be safe, it only allows people to avoid problems. Face them.

I understood you just fine, I tend to jest when I don't have anything meaningful to say, it's somwhere but not at hand

[Furunculus]

So what is the end point now that May has sought a clearer mandate?

https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...onald_Tusk.pdf

[Pannonian]

https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...onald_Tusk.pdf

That happened before the new and clearer mandate, didn't it? If so, what is this period following this renewed mandate? Post-end point? Does the new mandate change anything? If not, what was the point of seeking it?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

With Sinn Fein not voting in Westminster, that leaves 643 seats, or 322 needed for a majority. The Tories currently have 318, or 319 if they hold Kensington. Add the DUP, and they're up to 329. 4 rebels, of which Ken Clarke can be guaranteed to be one, and the Tories no longer have a majority vote.

I think your maths are off - with four rebels they have 324, still a functional majority. It would take seven rebels to actually break the government.

Which is still pitiful.

[Pannonian]

I think your maths are off - with four rebels they have 324, still a functional majority. It would take seven rebels to actually break the government.

Which is still pitiful.

Hmm, I forgot to take the DUP MPs from the opposition total. Still, Kensington may well be a Labour gain, as two previous counts have been a double figure Labour win with a third abandoned and the fourth ongoing.

[Idaho]

I think your maths are off - with four rebels they have 324, still a functional majority. It would take seven rebels to actually break the government.

Which is still pitiful.

There is no real chance of a left alliance being viable, even if Labour had another 20 seats. Too many variables, and the liberals, after going on about proportional representation and coalitions for decades, ruined the reputation of both in the space of a few years. It would take a target of opportunity - a tory revolt - for a successful no confidence vote to trigger an election.

All Labour need to do is watch and wait. The knives will be out soon enough for May. The tories have no shortage of ambitious and ruthless people. It's brains and souls they lack.

[Beskar]

https://twitter.com/Trump_ton/status/873172638679609344
"I'm confused, it's now ok to be in collusion with the political wing of Irish terrorism and religious extremists?"

[Idaho]

The tories put the electoral interests of their party leader first when they held the referendum. Now they are doing the same while jeopardising the northern Ireland peace. Typical Tories.

[Beskar]

Jonathan Pie describes the result as "Socialist Strikes Back!" and as a big F-U to the now dead New Labour opposition which didn't rally behind their leader in his latest video.

Definitely not good news for Pannonian.

[Pannonian]

Labour gain Kensington, leaving ConDUP on 328, the rest minus Sinn Fein on 315. Difference of 13, so anywhere between 13 abstentions or 7 direct rebels will negate the government majority.

[Furunculus]

That happened before the new and clearer mandate, didn't it? If so, what is this period following this renewed mandate? Post-end point? Does the new mandate change anything? If not, what was the point of seeking it?

No, the election was intended to build a mandate based on that letter.
This being a... logical response to the notion that no one knew what type of brexit we voted for last june.

[Pannonian]

No, the election was intended to build a mandate based on that letter.
This being a... logical response to the notion that no one knew what type of brexit we voted for last june.

So does this election strengthen the Redwood wing or the (formerly) Osborne wing of the Tories in their negotiating direction?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Jonathan Pie describes the result as "Socialist Strikes Back!" and as a big F-U to the now dead New Labour opposition which didn't rally behind their leader in his latest video.

Definitely not good news for Pannonian.

Saw it - Corbyn still lost, though.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Saw Nick Clegg lost his seat. I don't have anything to add to that, just figured it should be noted in this conversation.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Saw it - Corbyn still lost, though.

You have a point. But if Corbyn continues to pull 70+% of youth vote in multiple elections based on the momentum of this election wouldn't you call this, if not an electoral victory, a strategic victory?
I do not buy the narrative that this embarrassment for the Tories was 100% on the hands of May's leadership.

[HopAlongBunny]

I do not buy the narrative that this embarrassment for the Tories was 100% on the hands of May's leadership.

I think it is. She did not have to "seek a mandate"; political miscalculation rests on her.
As for clarity: achieved! People are less wedded to Brexit than the Tory majority suggested; pulling the trigger when she did (w/o some definite victory to suggest momentum) diplayed hubris not leadership.

[Pannonian]

You have a point. But if Corbyn continues to pull 70+% of youth vote in multiple elections based on the momentum of this election wouldn't you call this, if not an electoral victory, a strategic victory?
I do not buy the narrative that this embarrassment for the Tories was 100% on the hands of May's leadership.

The youth vote is always heavily Labour. The youth vote that is heavily Labour is also heavily Tory once they get past a certain age. The same individuals.

[Pannonian]

Saw it - Corbyn still lost, though.

From the sounds of it, she runs her cabinet like Corbyn runs his shadow cabinet. "We all ing hate her. She ed us."

[Idaho]

Saw it - Corbyn still lost, though.

As I stated before. One side battled against the odds, changed the political and demographic landscape and motivated a new generation to left politics. The other side just pissed away every advantage, crippled the government and disgraced the party. Still, true blue all the way eh?

[Brenus]

It was good for T-Rex May to be confronted to un-electable Corbyn...

[Furunculus]

So does this election strengthen the Redwood wing or the (formerly) Osborne wing of the Tories in their negotiating direction?

she failed, so the osborne wing:

https://lindleyfrench.blogspot.co.uk...-britains.html

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

As I stated before. One side battled against the odds, changed the political and demographic landscape and motivated a new generation to left politics. The other side just pissed away every advantage, crippled the government and disgraced the party. Still, true blue all the way eh?

Actually, I returned to my default position (Lib Dem).

Corbyn got the biggest Labour vote since 1997, May got the biggest Conservative vote since 1979.

Given that May basically self-destructed in the last week it's a wonder Corbyn couldn't win. On the other hand, opinion polls will have motivated the Left base to come out for Labour whilst leaving the Tory base complacent until the last minute, by which time they will have had a hard time getting their heads around the idea of losing.

As to changing the political landscape, in Westminster maybe but there has always been a deep seam of Socialism in the UK, it has just tended to remain untapped.

[Pannonian]

she failed, so the osborne wing:

https://lindleyfrench.blogspot.co.uk...-britains.html

How are “ease of trade with the Irish Republic and throughout the EU” and “arrangements to facilitate ease of movement of people, goods and services.” compatible with a hard Brexit? Also, are all the Tory MPs minus Ken Clarke going to hold to the whip if withdrawal from the single market is voted on?