http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...ester-40007886
Just to be contrary I'm going to say I think this is an IRA splinter group.
Details to follow.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...ester-40007886
Just to be contrary I'm going to say I think this is an IRA splinter group.
Details to follow.
"If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."
[IMG]https://img197.imageshack.us/img197/4917/logoromans23pd.jpg[/IMG]
The Arab-Islamic American Summit had actually concluded that if these events persist in the EU, certain EU states will be labeled a haven for terrorists. I think that is fair.
They have a serious terrorist problem. Sadly there don't seem to be any countermeasures on the EU states' part to address their growing culture of terrorism.
Last edited by AE Bravo; 05-23-2017 at 01:08.
Suggestions that it's a nail bomb in the foyer, set off as concert goers were leaving. Shrapnel like wounds being treated. Younger audience demographic.
New normal
There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford
My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.
I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.
http://www.rollingstone.com/music/ne...osions-w483720
Ariana Grande Concert Ends With Reported Explosions, 'Multiple Fatalities'
Greater Manchester Police confirm fatalities, others injured at Manchester Arena
Wooooo!!!
Reuters noting 19 dead, 50+ injured. Prayers for them and for their families.
"The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman
"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken
Just another day, rip victims
Rest in peace to the victims of this horrible attack.
Some interesting tweets of an account that has been deleted:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DAeC9IxXkAAZBxg.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DAeC9I2XoAEEzTP.jpg
However, because I don't know the timezone, I am not sure if it's the perpetrator advertising himself or an ISIS fanboy minutes after the attack.
21 50
Be well. Do good. Keep in touch.
Deatholl rised. There must be someting not quite right with me I would like myself better if these things shocked me but I don't feel anything I simply don't care, maybe even gloating if I am to be honest with myself, that's twisted, I know. But I got that 'toldyouso' thingie
Last edited by Fragony; 05-23-2017 at 14:18.
Two named victims so far. An 18 year old and an 8 year old, both girls. Considering the concert and footage I've seen of the audience, this is likely to be the demographic of the victims.
I feel sorry for the younger generation. They don't remember a time before 9-11 when they didn't have to worry about terrorism. They became desensitized. A young guy I know thought that this has always been happening.
Last edited by Shaka_Khan; 05-23-2017 at 14:37.
Wooooo!!!
I am totally aware that I said something horrible, you don't need to point out how flawed my thoughts can be, I am smart enough to know that by myself, I don't need you for that kthx. At least I question my thoughts and can completily change my mind, that's more than most do
Last edited by Fragony; 05-23-2017 at 14:40.
Vitiate Man.
History repeats the old conceits
The glib replies, the same defeats
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Another second gen, whose parents were refugees from Qaddafi.
Regrettably, guided munitions have no better track record at eradicating an idea than does any other weapon system. Were it so, this war would have been won years ago.
There is little that can be done to stop such atrocities by Western society. Consider some of the options...
1) Enact a security apparatus equivalent to the old "Sword and Shield" boys from the CCCP. At that level of police state pervasiveness, terrorism is more or less completely suppressed. Of course, you do have to punt pretty much all of Western Culture and ethics.
2) Conduct a war that systematically eliminates all potential sources of Muslim radicalization. This would look very much like a pogrom internally and would feature a massive Crusade against most, then all, of the Islamic world. This would work, though it would bankrupt the West AND do nearly as much damage culturally as option 1. NOTE: despite the best efforts of some modern states on analogous paths, actually wiping out an ethnos or fidos, has not occurred. Makes complete success unlikely here.
2b) This is halfway, militarily, between 2 & 3 with the military not 'crusading' against the Muslim world but destroying 2-4 of the biggest terror supporting states and then rebuilding their cultures from the ground up with 40+ year state-building occupation efforts. This is way expensive as well, though less so than 2) and also less culturally debilitating than 2). It does, however, take the longest of the "active" options.
3) Go on pretty much as we are, using some military strikes and a lot of police work/financial tracking/computer interdiction to undercut the largest support systems and players in the terrorist camp. Since this will, as it has, result I some civilian Muslim deaths on an ongoing basis, the radicalization factor cannot be eliminated by Western Action. This kind of thing becomes our expensive "new normal," as noted in a number of posts above.
4) Stop military strikes against Islamic nations unless attacked by the conventional forces of such a nation. Essentially this is a cheaper version of #3, since the military costs are drawn down. This probably yields a slight decrease in radicalization, but will undercut some of the efforts to strike at the terror support base. The ant--terror effort becomes more or less strictly a police effort in this approach.
5) Stop any efforts beyond normal policing to counter terrorism domestically and broadcast news of terror events to the same depth and extent associated with large traffic accidents in a metro area. No military efforts except direct defense as noted in 4) above. Domestic radicalization will decrease, particularly given limited media exposure, though casualties will increase in the short term. Devote the funds that would have be spent on the war on terror to domestic transportation and health system improvements which should net a greater increase in lives saved than those few lost to terror attacks.
6) Combine the domestic elements of 5) above with a withdrawal of all Western military forces from anywhere in the Middle East, North Africa, or Central Asia. In addition, all economic support for and military sales to Israel would cease. Allow all Muslim states to sort our internal affairs as they see fit and without influence from the West. This then gives China and the Russians good markets for their weapons, aiding their economies and minimizes cultural clashes between the West and Islam in areas traditionally viewed as Islamic. Should result in the absolute minimum levels possible of radicalization both domestically and from international sources. Involves the acceptance of a greatly decreased political role in affairs for a substantial portion of the World by the West. We'd have to concentrate our efforts elsewhere.
7) Your option? Please describe.
Which option do you think best?
**Regardless, in all of the options noted, the real cessation of the terrorist threat will come when the bulk of Islam actively begins to abhor, abjure, and oppose such tools for spreading the faith. The real long term solution can only come from there.
Last edited by Seamus Fermanagh; 05-23-2017 at 19:04.
"The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman
"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken
There is nothing we can do about this beyond accepting that these things happen and don't get all that upset about it. The only really thing that would work is removing all muslims but only an idiot would want to do that. Not making it worse and REALLY thinking over immigration-policies thank you very much
Last edited by Fragony; 05-23-2017 at 20:09.
Days since the Apocalypse began
"We are living in space-age times but there's too many of us thinking with stone-age minds" | How to spot a Humanist
"Men of Quality do not fear Equality." | "Belief doesn't change facts. Facts, if you are reasonable, should change your beliefs."
The funny thing is, the bulk of Islam already does that, but you don't need the bulk of Islam to find two religious fanatics who are easy to brainwash and persuade them to drive a lorry into a crowd. It's never gonna be perfect. Like that guy who shot all those blacks in a church a year or so ago. No one can say that white males in USA are oppressed in any way, but that doesn't mean one idiot won't feel like that.
The last several attacks actually show that previous security measures did yield some results. Terrorist groups are finding it harder to send people from Muslim countries, they have to rely on unhappy second generation immigrants. It's easier now as European economies are still feeling the recession to a greater or lesser extent. If an individual is feeling let down by society, blaming "them others" and "going back to the ways of our forefathers" feels logical, as evident by the growing popularity of conservative parties across the western world.
They are avoiding airports and using more rudimentary (but arguably not less effective) methods to spread terror.
I do think that Muslim organizations, whether religious or civic, have been under utilized. They could be a great way of passing the message that terrorism is contrary to the Islamic principles. That could go a long way of getting those disgruntled, second generation Muslims to express their rage in a different way, even into something productive. You get extra funding but you have to actively support/organize anti terrorist campaigns on a regular basis.
It boils down to 3 main ways:
1) remove the incentive (unlikely, or at least unlikely to do it in a complete way)
2) cut off their funding
3) limit their recruiting possibilities
Days since the Apocalypse began
"We are living in space-age times but there's too many of us thinking with stone-age minds" | How to spot a Humanist
"Men of Quality do not fear Equality." | "Belief doesn't change facts. Facts, if you are reasonable, should change your beliefs."
Removing incentive what a joke, maybe they are simply hostile, it's a religion they don't need an incentive.
@the serb
Last edited by Fragony; 05-23-2017 at 21:17.
"If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."
[IMG]https://img197.imageshack.us/img197/4917/logoromans23pd.jpg[/IMG]
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