"Explosion" in Manchester

[Fragony]

Since when have we used Nazi Germany as the touchstone of civilisation? Does anyone worthwhile hold that up as an exemplar of human civilisation?

The scary thing is that you actually could in a twisted way if you think of it. With some clever wording you can probably get away with calling nazi-Germany exemplar of human civilisation. If you just forget all the horrible things that were done just for argument's sake, why wouldn't it be

not an opinion, just a musing

[Pannonian]

The scary thing is that you actually could in a twisted way if you think of it. With some clever wording you can probably get away with calling nazi-Germany exemplar of human civilisation. If you just forget all the horrible things that were done just for argument's sake, why wouldn't it be

not an opinion, just a musing

If you are Husar or his ilk, Nazi Germany is the exemplar that proves that Britain and America are in the wrong and therefore deserve everything bad that can happen to them.

[Husar]

Since when have we used Nazi Germany as the touchstone of civilisation? Does anyone worthwhile hold that up as an exemplar of human civilisation?

I'm not the one saying the goal of our civilization should be to cleanse us of muslims.
And one doesn't have to be the touchstone of civilization in order to have it, you keep moving the goalposts.

If you are Husar or his ilk, Nazi Germany is the exemplar that proves that Britain and America are in the wrong and therefore deserve everything bad that can happen to them.

Exactly, if I were on cocaine, I'd intereprete my posts like that, too.

[Pannonian]

I say.

Bravery has traditionally been associated with the warrior ethos. At what time in history has it been considered reasonable for a warrior to target victims such as these?

Husar says I say.

I'm not the one saying the goal of our civilization should be to cleanse us of muslims.
And one doesn't have to be the touchstone of civilization in order to have it, you keep moving the goalposts.

[Husar]

I say.

Husar says I say.

I can only assume then, that the Pannonian posting in the UK election thread is your second personality or somesuch:

I see no point in fighting an ideological war with bombs and bullets, or with ideology. I see no point in fighting the war at all, or engaging with these barbarians in any way beyond what is necessary. I think their ideology is barbaric, but they're free to have it in their own country. They use the argument of self determination (despite your trying to weasel out of that principle when I pressed you on it), but their claim is reciprocal. They want us out of their country, the reciprocation is that they should get out of our country. Since we can't get them out due to international laws, we should keep them out instead, which is within our rights as a state.

emphasis mine

[Pannonian]

I can only assume then, that the Pannonian posting in the UK election thread is your second personality or somesuch:

emphasis mine

Carefully bolded to miss the point. I'll quote the two relevant sentences again, and explain them to you.

1. They want us out of their country, the reciprocation is that they should get out of our country.
The first part is what they want. Followed by what the reciprocal would mean.

2. Since we can't get them out due to international laws, we should keep them out instead, which is within our rights as a state.
Here, I explain that the reciprocal is not possible. I then forward something which is within our rights as a state.

[Husar]

Carefully bolded to miss the point. I'll quote the two relevant sentences again, and explain them to you.

1. They want us out of their country, the reciprocation is that they should get out of our country.
The first part is what they want. Followed by what the reciprocal would mean.

That's the reciprocal you want, it's not an unalterable given or a law of physics that it has to be this way.
There is no misunderstanding here.
That you can't have your wish due to international law is irrelevant to the fact that you wish you could.

[Strike For The South]

Earlier this week the press begrudgingly gave president Trump kudos for referring to the terrorists as losers. There is a feeling among the media class (perhaps the public at large) that the best way to describe these people is with belittling, dismissive language. As if not giving them "honor" of an even footing. I can't say for certain, but I don't think a man who plants nail bombs at a teeny booper concert is overly concerned with what the western media thinks of him.

These men are very committed and the western media parsing the meaning of the words brave and cowardly doesn't really sway that level of commitment. It is a pointless, navel gazing exercise.

Europe needs to figure out if they really want immigrants or not. It's one thing to say you do, praise all the kebab shops, and then fuck up the end game. France is something like 20% non-French and you would never know it by looking at their media or politicians. Combine that with their tyrannical policy of laicite, a sluggish economy, and you got yourself a discontentment stew brewing.

The French will of course never admit this. They are all Frenchmen, eyeroll.jpg. Their problems are the problems of Europe as a whole however. They are told they need immigrants to infuse life into the welfare state, they bring in the immigrants, the immigrants use the welfare state because they can not find a job, faith in the welfare state erodes because of perceived unfairness. So who benefits from this? It's certainly not the immigrants or the natives.

I would venture to say its the capitalists who strive to keep wages stagnate and the working class divided. The same thing happens here in America. Mexicans are paid a half sum in cash with no benefits and then when the work is done, they conveniently get caught in an ICE raid. Nothing ever happens to the businesses or farms that use the labor. How strange. This of course is another topic.

[Pannonian]

Earlier this week the press begrudgingly gave president Trump kudos for referring to the terrorists as losers. There is a feeling among the media class (perhaps the public at large) that the best way to describe these people is with belittling, dismissive language. As if not giving them "honor" of an even footing. I can't say for certain, but I don't think a man who plants nail bombs at a teeny booper concert is overly concerned with what the western media thinks of him.

These men are very committed and the western media parsing the meaning of the words brave and cowardly doesn't really sway that level of commitment. It is a pointless, navel gazing exercise.

Europe needs to figure out if they really want immigrants or not. It's one thing to say you do, praise all the kebab shops, and then fuck up the end game. France is something like 20% non-French and you would never know it by looking at their media or politicians. Combine that with their tyrannical policy of laicite, a sluggish economy, and you got yourself a discontentment stew brewing.

The French will of course never admit this. They are all Frenchmen, eyeroll.jpg. Their problems are the problems of Europe as a whole however. They are told they need immigrants to infuse life into the welfare state, they bring in the immigrants, the immigrants use the welfare state because they can not find a job, faith in the welfare state erodes because of perceived unfairness. So who benefits from this? It's certainly not the immigrants or the natives.

I would venture to say its the capitalists who strive to keep wages stagnate and the working class divided. The same thing happens here in America. Mexicans are paid a half sum in cash with no benefits and then when the work is done, they conveniently get caught in an ICE raid. Nothing ever happens to the businesses or farms that use the labor. How strange. This of course is another topic.

For the UK at least, there was a potential soft landing solution to economic problems, giving us some leeway to ease in some longer lasting solutions. If we need young workers from abroad, there was a plentiful supply from eastern Europe, who are pretty close to us in outlook. Post-Brexit, that's no longer open, and as the government has indicated, we still need young workers from abroad. The talk is about the Commonwealth, but in practice this doesn't mean the secular dominions like Australia and Canada (the "white" colonies), but the increasingly religious subcontinent. We're going to be importing young Indians and Pakistanis, which wouldn't have been a problem in past decades, but at a time when younger generations are increasingly turning to religious radicalism. Not clever.

[Fragony]

If you are Husar or his ilk, Nazi Germany is the exemplar that proves that Britain and America are in the wrong and therefore deserve everything bad that can happen to them.

Husar isn't like that. As for me, I see it as an example of how bad things can go very very fast. War was inevitable but I find the cleansings puzzling. I wish I could say I am not capable of doing something that horrble but am probably stupid thinking that. Thing is, a very advanced society like Germany (and many more) did something truly horrific. So scaringly calculating, it scares me because I don't understand, how can rational people do that, how can they explain it to themselves. Advanced societies? People just don't understand themselve no matter what where and when

[Pannonian]

Husar isn't like that. As for me, I see it as an example of how bad things can go very very fast. War was inevitable but I find the cleansings puzzling. I wish I could say I am not capable of doing something that horrble but am probably stupid thinking that. Thing is, a very advanced society like Germany (and many more) did something truly horrific. So scaringly calculating, it scares me because I don't understand it

And I deem Nazi Germany, and certainly those parts that participated in the Final Solution, to be murderers and barbarians. Whatever else they may have had, they crossed the line when they deliberately killed women and children. I'm not alone in thinking that either, as the Einsatzgruppen had high suicide rates and the higher ups had to dream up ways of further dehumanising the victims.

[Fragony]

And I deem Nazi Germany, and certainly those parts that participated in the Final Solution, to be murderers and barbarians. Whatever else they may have had, they crossed the line when they deliberately killed women and children. I'm not alone in thinking that either, as the Einsatzgruppen had high suicide rates and the higher ups had to dream up ways of further dehumanising the victims.

I think certain mechanics can can come into play, they call it diffusion of responsibility. When told what to do it's simply not about you anymore, you are not really responsible for horrible things you do, bit of a shield. Can you honestly say you wouldn't kill women and children because I can't say I wouldn't if I would be in the firing-squad with the task of doing it. Sure it would haunt me but I think I would do it, secretly hoping I wouldn't but I expect that is bullshit and would shoot them. Knowing that I could probably do incredibly horrible things I find it really hard to condemn those that do. Manchester attack is a different matter for me, that I really don't get there was no need at all to do that, loose from comments

[Idaho]

The scary thing is that you actually could in a twisted way if you think of it. With some clever wording you can probably get away with calling nazi-Germany exemplar of human civilisation. If you just forget all the horrible things that were done just for argument's sake, why wouldn't it be

not an opinion, just a musing

The 'musings' of the people like Tommy Robinson become the musings of people like the Nazis. And they organised a final solution (in the words of Katie Hopkins) to all the problems of society.

75 odd years ago the letters from the half of my family still in Poland stopped.

[Greyblades]

The scary thing is that you actually could in a twisted way if you think of it. With some clever wording you can probably get away with calling nazi-Germany exemplar of human civilisation. If you just forget all the horrible things that were done just for argument's sake, why wouldn't it be

not an opinion, just a musing

Hell, if you revert to the morality of the pre enlightenment you could easily call nazi germany an exemplar of human civilization without any fancy wordplay or having a selective memory at all!

Would certainly explain why Mein Kampf is a best seller in the middle east.

[Fragony]

Hell, if you revert to the morality of the pre enlightenment you could easily call nazi germany an exemplar of human civilization without any fancy wordplay or having a selective memory at all!

Would certainly explain why Mein Kampf is a best seller in the middle east.

I am saying that an exemplar civilisation can go completily wrong, no matter what

[Fragony]

Hell, if you revert to the morality of the pre enlightenment you could easily call nazi germany an exemplar of human civilization without any fancy wordplay or having a selective memory at all!

Would certainly explain why Mein Kampf is a best seller in the middle east.

My morals are my own and I think I am a really nice person, even if I did some bad things myself but that was my job. The job was protecting the girls, and I am no idiot I knew fully well that it's shady. I beat people up, even used a knive a few times, even pretty badly open faces and all that. I also worked for something I really dispise, as a muscle for hire I still did it and ignored what I knew was wrong. I even participated sometimes in orgies. Yet I always knew something was of, even if it all looked good. I knew it sometimes wasn't, fully. You get into a sort of denial on what is happening right in front of you, you hurt people and it makes total sense to do that at the moment. Because I know my own flaws I give others some slack. Even if you are a really nice person you can become horrible. I don't feel sorry for the beatings or the stabbings, morality is strange, at the time it felt right. Right now I feel that I was always wrong getting in that business. I wouldn't lie saying that it destroyed a part of me

Civilisation, think again. It doesn't matter how civilised a cisilision is, cruelty will exist,as will indifferdnce to it

[AE Bravo]

Would certainly explain why Mein Kampf is a best seller in the middle east.

Of course there's no way that is because of academic purposes like European countries...

On a side note, I don't think much of Trump calling bombers "losers." Playground insults won't hurt their feelings.

[Fragony]

Of course there's no way that is because of academic purposes like European countries...

There must be many academies than, a quik calculation comes down to at least more than a thousand versions of Mein Kampf per student. I own a copy as well, second print pretty valauble. But educational purpuso, about what, there is nothing to learn from it it's gibberish. Maybe it's so popular because Hitler hated jews and blamed them for, well just about everything. Should sound familiar Tried reading it but my German isn't so good.

[AE Bravo]

I'll give you that it might be a bestseller in Turkey, but the fact that the online version is popular doesn't really mean anything. There's a difference between curiosity/reference and admiration. He is possibly the most famous person in human history.

[Montmorency]

I'll give you that it might be a bestseller in Turkey, but the fact that the online version is popular doesn't really mean anything. There's a difference between curiosity/reference and admiration. He is possibly the most famous person in human history.

Not a good accounting, but you might wonder how it connects to the various nationalisms of the region. Aside from the Jew-hating, how much sympathy do (and have) Arabs had for the brand of authoritarian nationalist philosophy that Hitler outlined, especially with respect to local conditions.

[Fragony]

I'll give you that it might be a bestseller in Turkey, but the fact that the online version is popular doesn't really mean anything. There's a difference between curiosity/reference and admiration. He is possibly the most famous person in human history.

Not so sure it doesn't says anything, especially not in Turkey now as things are going there as they are going. For me it's just a cool thing to have shelved just for the sake of having it. There are things to watch carefully, not that stuid book and what's in it but that Erdokhan is a dangerous man,so are his fans here

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

OK, let's talk for a moment about Nazi "barbarism".

Nazi Germany was a highly advanced, ordered, cultured, and in some ways "progressive" society. Nazi Scientists identified the "Jews" as a distinct race within Germany who refused to integrate into the Reich, confirming their Leader's suspicion about these people. Nazi engineers and planners then came up with a typically German (logical and efficient) way of solving this problem.

That solution which we call "The Holocaust" was, in fact, mechanised culling of a type actually far more humane than methods we use for pest control in the modern day - see discussion of the downsides of shooting foxes.

The point is, and this is essential, is that only a Civilised Nation could have done what the Nazi's did, both morally as well as technologically a pre-Enlightenment society would have been incapable of such "barbarity" because, at the end, the Nazi's were actually the polar opposite of barbarians.