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Thread: Policing In America

  1. #31
    Senior Member Senior Member Idaho's Avatar
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    Default Re: Policing In America

    "The republicans will draft your kids, poison the air and water, take away your social security and burn down black churches if elected." Gawain of Orkney

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  2. #32
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Policing In America

    Yeah, on that note, very fitting for this thread, even if you may struggle with the language:



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  3. #33
    Ni dieu ni maître! Senior Member a completely inoffensive name's Avatar
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    Default Re: Policing In America

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    Drugs is pretty universal, but gang-culture is not (you could bring up motorgangs of course), but in general gang-culture is more of a black thing. I can't take these Black life Muppets and social-justice millenials very serious
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gangs_of_New_York
    In all these papers we see a love of honest work, an aversion to shams, a caution in the enunciation of conclusions, a distrust of rash generalizations and speculations based on uncertain premises. He was never anxious to add one more guess on doubtful matters in the hope of hitting the truth, or what might pass as such for a time, but was always ready to take infinite pains in the most careful testing of every theory. With these qualities was united a modesty which forbade the pushing of his own claims and desired no reputation except the unsought tribute of competent judges.

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  4. #34
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Policing In America

    19th century America, that changes the debate completily! Suddenly todays problems just dissapeares *poof*

    Might seem clever to you but I think it's dumb. It's the same as assuming that Germany never changed and are all closet nazi's. Today is now. Problems are now. By all means take the vaccination called political correctness and relativation if reality disturbs you too much

    Awesome movie by the way
    Last edited by Fragony; 06-28-2017 at 11:47.

  5. #35
    Horse Archer Senior Member Sarmatian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Policing In America

    Quote Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name View Post
    Thank you very much. Now I have to watch that again.

  6. #36
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Policing In America

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmatian View Post
    Thank you very much. Now I have to watch that again.
    Absolutily a must, Butcher Bill is an awesome villain, truly scary

  7. #37
    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
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    Default Re: Policing In America

    I do not believe that America's black community's issues will be solved by an overhaul of America's police service. I do not even believe it will improve their situation by a significant amount. If anything it is an excuse to deflect blame and refuse badly needed self reflection and internal community reform.

    I do however think that an overhaul is sorely needed by society at large. The American political scene is frequently dancing back and forth over the boiling point and maintaining the ability of the police to counter and contain civil unrest is vital. As it is the chronic inexperience and ill discipline of parts the American police force is itself a frequent instigator of the very civil unrest it is tasked to prevent.
    Last edited by Greyblades; 06-28-2017 at 15:00.
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  8. #38
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Policing In America

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    19th century America, that changes the debate completily! Suddenly todays problems just dissapeares *poof*

    Might seem clever to you but I think it's dumb. It's the same as assuming that Germany never changed and are all closet nazi's. Today is now. Problems are now. By all means take the vaccination called political correctness and relativation if reality disturbs you too much

    Awesome movie by the way
    Why?


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  9. #39
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Policing In America

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    Why?
    Why ask me, political-correctness isn't exactly my thing

  10. #40
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Policing In America

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    Why ask me, political-correctness isn't exactly my thing
    The questions are more like why did these white people have gang culture?
    Why do whites from the Balkans/Russia/Eastern Europe not count as having a gang culture (when they are in gangs or all of them?)?
    Why do the blacks (partially or all?) in the US have a gang culture now?
    Why is this rarely said about blacks in some other countries?
    And why are these questions linked to political correctness?
    Last edited by Husar; 06-28-2017 at 15:42.


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  11. #41
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Policing In America

    I look at artforms and expressions.

  12. #42
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    I look at artforms and expressions.
    So you would agree that white people can't dance?


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  13. #43
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Policing In America

    Total faillure comes in many ways. I am a really good dancer by the way I almost win every contest every time

  14. #44
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Policing In America

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    Total faillure comes in many ways. I am a really good dancer by the way I almost win every contest every time
    So you have a gang culture?


    "Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu

  15. #45
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Policing In America

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    So you have a gang culture?
    Because I like dancing with pretty women?

    There is nothing that will ever make me respect anything that doesn't suit me
    Last edited by Fragony; 06-28-2017 at 22:06.

  16. #46
    Coffee farmer extraordinaire Member spmetla's Avatar
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    Default Re: Policing In America

    Quote Originally Posted by Greyblades View Post
    I do however think that an overhaul is sorely needed by society at large. The American political scene is frequently dancing back and forth over the boiling point and maintaining the ability of the police to counter and contain civil unrest is vital. As it is the chronic inexperience and ill discipline of parts the American police force is itself a frequent instigator of the very civil unrest it is tasked to prevent.
    This unfortunately is the difficult part to do. How does one get the economically left behind to buy into society, especially one that doesn't seem to want them? Unless people from the bottom of society try and join the police force too it will remain an organization of the oppressive other, the Police too will see distrust from a community that doesn't seem them as a force of good and often overreact. Police unfortunately only see the problems and are not trained to be social workers too.

    We need to overhaul education so that poor communities don't have poor schools. The schools need to guide kids toward some sort of employment instead of just general education. Civics needs to be taught a bit more often so that people understand that their are legitimate ways to address problems and so that they understand what a good citizen should contribute to society.
    Under/un-educated young men of any ethnicity will tend to form gangs and delve into crime when legitimate work for their set of skills and education will never result in the type of status, wealth, and 'respect' that strive for.
    Who wants to be the chump working the dead end job for minimum wage when being a gangster will result in much easier gains plus a sense of actual belonging.

    I'd say another thing to overhaul would be the prison system. It shouldn't be a finishing school that accepts minor drug users and pumps out unemployable gangsters.
    Last edited by spmetla; 06-29-2017 at 04:22.

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  17. #47

    Default Re: Policing In America

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    Maybe there is a reason more blacks get shot. Must be racism of course.
    Approaching 30,000 posts without evolving. Here we see a snowflake in his natural habitat.
    Last edited by AE Bravo; 06-29-2017 at 12:08.

  18. #48
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Policing In America

    Quote Originally Posted by Showtime View Post
    Approaching 30,000 posts without evolving. Here we see a snowflake in his natural habitat.
    I am perfectly capable of completily changing my mind, did that many times. Need a good reason to do it

    edit, internet is back. If you look in my posting history you will find a different person, basicly an extreme-rightist of the worst kind. That's all gone I don't see things like that anymore life caught up. I have absolutily evolved.
    Last edited by Fragony; 06-29-2017 at 17:21.

  19. #49
    Backordered Member CrossLOPER's Avatar
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    Default Re: Policing In America

    Quote Originally Posted by Showtime View Post
    Approaching 30,000 posts without evolving. Here we see a snowflake in his natural habitat.
    His spelling is getting marginally worse.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    basicly an extreme-rightist of the worst kind
    Did you actually go around waving a Nazi nationalist proud homeland loving flag and throw fecal matter at Jewish Muslim children immigrants leftist agitators? I can't really imagine it getting much worse.
    Last edited by CrossLOPER; 07-01-2017 at 21:42.
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  20. #50
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Policing In America

    Now I only dislike you

  21. #51
    Coffee farmer extraordinaire Member spmetla's Avatar
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    Default Re: Policing In America

    Saw this last night on PBS, good report on the change in policing in Camden, Pennsylvania.
    http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/happe...g-build-trust/
    Historically one of the country's most impoverished and violent cities, Camden, New Jersey, has been working to rebuild its police force from the ground up, recruiting officers from its mostly Latino and African-American community. The new procedures aim to bring police into closer face-to-face interactions with the people they serve in order to foster good relationships. Hari Sreenivasan reports.

    Since transitioning from the old force to the new in 2014, the number of murders dropped by almost 70 percent, burglaries by 27 percent, robberies 33 percent, and even an eye-catching 143 percent spike in rapes that the department attributes to increased reporting, as well as new broader federal guidelines on what constitutes rape.

    Overall, the city’s crime numbers are the lowest in decades. Those are impressive statistics for any police department, and residents don’t dispute them. But some say seeing them in a report vs. feeling the difference every day are two different things.
    Last edited by spmetla; 07-02-2017 at 00:12.

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  22. #52
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Policing In America

    Makes perfect sense, police from their own community won't be seen as hostile

  23. #53
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, Cub Shoot 2 Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Treasure Diver Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Slack Man Champion, Japanese Baseball Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Super Mario Mushroom Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Fish Kill Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, KF 9000 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Policing In America

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    Police in the US are trained to protect themselves first, they go into a situation assuming they're going into combat.

    Until Police training in the Us prioritises the lives of citizens over those of Police Officers there will be no change.

    On the other hand, if that change comes about there will be a lot of dead Police officers. So, you pays your money, you takes your choice.
    My wife, years past, was part of a police training academy as staff.

    Police are NOT trained to protect themselves first. Their training centers on protecting the general public first, themselves second, and the alleged perpetrator third.
    Primary in that training is an absolute priority to NOT get your gun taken away from you.
    The police are then trained to respond with the absolute minimum level of force needed to protect the public and make an arrest.
    The official training provided officers, PFH, is very much in line with the goals you state. The issues of concern come after that...

    Police academies vary, but are typically 13-14 weeks of instruction. This is followed by a period of tutelage OJT under a training officer or several weeks or months.
    By contrast the "simplest" job in the military [infantry] requires the same total training time (10 weeks basic, 4 weeks AIT). Thus an army infantry warfighter receives the same level of training provided to a police officer, despite the fact that the job of infantry soldier is conceptually MUCH easier with fewer task types than a police officer and infantry receive much more direct instruction and supervision until they achieve NCO status. @Strike For The South wasn't claiming police to be untrained, but that they are undertrained given the complexity of their task/purpose.

    AFTER they exit the academy, they go on the street and learn how to police from other police....and the lessons learned are not always aligned with the standards promulgated in their academy training. The mental shortcuts and "what we really look for" standards may well undercut the official training standards. This is accompanied, of course, by all of the natural efforts by the new officer to fit into their organization (See Jablin on Organizational entry and assimilation by the individual). The official training can easily end up taking a back seat. Thus, police CULTURE is the real source of concern -- and it may well alter, undercut or even obviate all of the official training in some localities.

    You could also make a good case that, unless they are assigned as a training officer at the academy, they do not receive enough refresher training in appropriate escalation of violence.
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  24. #54

    Default Re: Policing In America

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    My wife, years past, was part of a police training academy as staff.

    Police are NOT trained to protect themselves first. Their training centers on protecting the general public first, themselves second, and the alleged perpetrator third.
    Primary in that training is an absolute priority to NOT get your gun taken away from you.
    The police are then trained to respond with the absolute minimum level of force needed to protect the public and make an arrest.
    The official training provided officers, PFH, is very much in line with the goals you state. The issues of concern come after that...

    Police academies vary, but are typically 13-14 weeks of instruction. This is followed by a period of tutelage OJT under a training officer or several weeks or months.
    By contrast the "simplest" job in the military [infantry] requires the same total training time (10 weeks basic, 4 weeks AIT). Thus an army infantry warfighter receives the same level of training provided to a police officer, despite the fact that the job of infantry soldier is conceptually MUCH easier with fewer task types than a police officer and infantry receive much more direct instruction and supervision until they achieve NCO status. @Strike For The South wasn't claiming police to be untrained, but that they are undertrained given the complexity of their task/purpose.

    AFTER they exit the academy, they go on the street and learn how to police from other police....and the lessons learned are not always aligned with the standards promulgated in their academy training. The mental shortcuts and "what we really look for" standards may well undercut the official training standards. This is accompanied, of course, by all of the natural efforts by the new officer to fit into their organization (See Jablin on Organizational entry and assimilation by the individual). The official training can easily end up taking a back seat. Thus, police CULTURE is the real source of concern -- and it may well alter, undercut or even obviate all of the official training in some localities.

    You could also make a good case that, unless they are assigned as a training officer at the academy, they do not receive enough refresher training in appropriate escalation of violence.
    One thing to note is that infantry are trained in a total environment, whereas police inductees (I believe) get to go home at the end of the day. But that's just to be pedantic.

    In the conflict between "Black Lives Matter" and "All Lives Matter/Blue Lives Matter", to my surprise it turns out* comparatively few have thought to deploy "Civilian Lives Matter" as a rejoinder.

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  25. #55
    Ni dieu ni maître! Senior Member a completely inoffensive name's Avatar
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    Default Re: Policing In America

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    I am perfectly capable of completily changing my mind, did that many times. Need a good reason to do it

    edit, internet is back. If you look in my posting history you will find a different person, basicly an extreme-rightist of the worst kind. That's all gone I don't see things like that anymore life caught up. I have absolutily evolved.
    Did Anders have any influence on your shift towards the left?
    In all these papers we see a love of honest work, an aversion to shams, a caution in the enunciation of conclusions, a distrust of rash generalizations and speculations based on uncertain premises. He was never anxious to add one more guess on doubtful matters in the hope of hitting the truth, or what might pass as such for a time, but was always ready to take infinite pains in the most careful testing of every theory. With these qualities was united a modesty which forbade the pushing of his own claims and desired no reputation except the unsought tribute of competent judges.

  26. #56
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Policing In America

    Quote Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name View Post
    Did Anders have any influence on your shift towards the left?
    Me to the left you kidding me, but yeah somewhat. The reactions of people trying to relativate it even more. There is no 'yes but' for me. That doesn't mean I don't dispise the left and the EU
    Last edited by Fragony; 07-07-2017 at 08:50.

  27. #57
    Ni dieu ni maître! Senior Member a completely inoffensive name's Avatar
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    Default Re: Policing In America

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    Me to the left you kidding me, but yeah somewhat. The reactions of people trying to relativate it even more. There is no 'yes but' for me. That doesn't mean I don't dispise the left and the EU
    Was just poking fun with my choice of words. I don't think we had any doubts you are still anti-EU.
    In all these papers we see a love of honest work, an aversion to shams, a caution in the enunciation of conclusions, a distrust of rash generalizations and speculations based on uncertain premises. He was never anxious to add one more guess on doubtful matters in the hope of hitting the truth, or what might pass as such for a time, but was always ready to take infinite pains in the most careful testing of every theory. With these qualities was united a modesty which forbade the pushing of his own claims and desired no reputation except the unsought tribute of competent judges.

  28. #58
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Policing In America

    Just be carefull and considerate, it's an open wound for Norway that isn't going to heal very soon

  29. #59
    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: Policing In America

    I meant to post this in the Charlottesville thread but it is locked.

    153 years ago today Robert Edward Lee surrendered to Ulysses S Grant at Appomattox, the civil war ended, and the Republic was restored.


    It would be another 99 for Black Americans to receive their full rights (on paper). It is the nations greatest black mark and it is the fulcrum upon which all domestic policy still turns. From redlining to police violence, there are vestiges of the salve state that continue to work all around us. Vestiges that we should work to end. A great first step is listening, don't interrupt, just listen. A great second step is reflection.

    America is disconcerting and uncertain times. Uncertainty can lead to fear. Fear makes people want control. That desire for control manifests itself in pain and hatred. It is difficult to excise fear, but we must try.
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

    My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.

    I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.

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  30. #60
    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: Policing In America

    .I was reading various news yesterday and I came across two stories that made my eyes roll back into my skull.


    The first was the Chicago PDs use of bait trucks. The idea is to park a truck in the neighborhood, open the back, and watch to see who comes and takes the goods, in this case shoes. This is not a new idea. The use of bait cars, cars with GPS in them has been around for a while. What happened here kind of takes that a step further, like having the car door open and keys in the ignition. Of course that caught some people, whose lives were most certainly now be ruined because of a totally ginned up scenario by the cops.


    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-45142145


    The second, more egregious story was about the Cincinnati police tasering an 11 year old girl because the off duty cop thought she was stealing something at the grocery store. Tasering an 11 year old.


    https://www.cnn.com/2018/08/09/us/ci...rnd/index.html
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

    My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.

    I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.

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