This kind of feels disingenuous. Champ, El Barto, Jowy have all gotten serious votes that I can recall off top of head, while I think Csargo is only one of those that has.
This kind of feels disingenuous. Champ, El Barto, Jowy have all gotten serious votes that I can recall off top of head, while I think Csargo is only one of those that has.
not talking about getting votes
talking about players that should ever be lynched today
Yeah. Sorry about lurking today. I'm on vacation through this weekend so things are a little off. That and I am never that talkative let alone on D1 when there really isn't much solid to go on other than tone and meta analysis, which absent gross incompetence usually isn't indicative. Most of my time is just going to keeping up. But at least the noise ratio is lower this game than other recent D1s. Don't expect much from me the next couple of days.
Always meet on the level, act by the plumb and part on the square.
2B1ASK1
Yeah. Sorry about lurking today. I'm on vacation through this weekend so things are a little off. That and I am never that talkative let alone on D1 when there really isn't much solid to go on other than tone and meta analysis, which absent gross incompetence usually isn't indicative. Most of my time is just going to keeping up. But at least the noise ratio is lower this game than other recent D1s. Don't expect much from me the next couple of days.
He's on vacation. Forgot about this.
Ok, will wait until day 3 to attempt to start reading him. Still would have appreciated a check in post if he's following along.
So I'll start with Jowy, it's difficult not to read his posts with a towny slant now that he's flipped. But knowing that I read him almost completely null real time helped. My feelings on Jowy post flip pre-iso was that it was a bit of a low info lynch.
Here's what I would think is his best town post
Originally Posted by Jowy
Alright that's a bad move. When you start your wagon with an excuse for when the target flips villa, it probably won't be taking off any time soon. Oh and it's suspicious.
Novice does an ISO of Jowy and does mention this post, but doesn't emphasize it, it's at the end of a long line of other Jowy's post. Maybe he was giving him credit for the whole performance in the thread.
The biggest issue I had with Jowy's ISO is the lack of progression, he self-clears Barto early in the phase, and then with no explanation he's okay with Barto's lynch a couple of hours later. Drastic switches like that should be explained, period, it's a huge pet peeve of mine when townies don't explain drastic shifts in their reads.
Similarly but to a less drastic degree Jowy does it with DP as well. Particularly that post I quoted earlier, was a very good insight and explanation to point out scummy behavior. But he goes to bead and wakes up and decides that DP's now 6th in order of optimal lynches. He mentions that "if we're done bullying DP' but there's no specific reason for the shift on the read. Though he does clarify it a bit later, but it has a tinge of hedging on DP.
So what do I take from this? Pretty much where I was, He's null, but now because he's got things I like and things I don't.
What does this mean in regards to Novice...From a certain perspective, one could say the read is legit.
Originally Posted by novice
For me it's that he's interacting intelligently with the thread. Maybe it shouldn't be alignment indicative, but it's giving me warm fuzzy feelings.
What's so scummy about Jowy?
That's his pushback on Pizza mentioning Jowy.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Originally Posted by novice
Some ISO'ing of my own then. Jowy just seems to the point, although I see now that he pocketed me nicely with his first few posts.
To the point:
Pocketing me by voting my voter:
Pocketing:
To the point:
To the point:
Mindmeld:
To the point:
These next two post are exactly what I would have been thinking and doing at that point if I has been awake. Well, except I wouldn't have picked Autolycus as an alternative.
To the point:
There's is ISO of Jowy. He repeats To the point 4 times. I'm not in a position to judge Novice's typical ISO behavior, but I've seen higher thought out effort ISO's from him in this game alone...it's why i was giving him some town cred earlier. On top of that, aside from mentioning possible pocketing, he eliminates all the warts from the ISO. There's no mention of Jowy's lack of progression on a number of his reads.
So the conclusion?
There's some room for a legit read on Jowy here. However there's just as much room for representing a town read. If he'd mentioned more of Jowy's problematic points, I'd be inclined to think it was legit. So I can't give him credit for the town read, it's almost null in a wolf or town scenario.
I think the first handful of posts, even the one's quoted by Pizza are pretty NAI. His first post was in response to me, which was a stupid introduction joke post. Voting there might have appeared as bullying that early in the phase.
His interactions later with Pizza that were referenced in the ISO, and his jab about irony in multicultural settings also feel NAI, I don't think Pizza should be scum reading him for these, or even mentioning, as they clutter up the meat of Pizza's read of Novice.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Originally Posted by novice
How do Night 0's work anyway?
Yes, agreed on both counts.
And if he isn't joking, he's scum because...?
This is the first part of Pizza's ISO of novice where he get's down and dirty.
The context really isn't doing it for me, I'd need a further explanation, right now it looks like he's following a thread. Logic voted for someone even though he thought it was a joke. It's not a good reason for a vote IMO, so I could see why he would bring it up, even though I wouldn't at that stage in the game. I agree he wastes a ton of time on his interrogation of Logic and those that comment on the interrogation. Don't think that's indicative as scum on it's own, maybe cumulatively.
Pizza next moves onto Novice voting for Cuth. I diverge on this because the initial push back on Cuth read genuine. I said as much at the time when I read it real time.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Originally Posted by novice
Fact checking, that's not what he did, though?
He gives a reason, namely tone - which is all we've got at this point, according to him. Where's the joke?
I think this part of his interaction with Cuth looks good for him (there's a doozy that I'll get to later), the fact that it's misinterpretation of the read hurts the town cred, but not enough to dismiss it.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Originally Posted by novice
Thanks. And calling Monty's vote a joke was just shorthand for a vote with minimal justification?
The 3rd time he misunderstood, misread, or mistook something in the Cuth v Monty interaction alone. In fact Novice had to be corrected a number of times during day 1. Don't know what it means, but it's worth noting of a trend.
Where pizza says Novice is playing both sides of the fire is problematic. I think Pizza is assigning too high of a value to Novice's read of Jowy. Novice never locktowned Jowy, and I don't think he ever had a clear favorite townie. In the scenario that Novice is scum he's representing that he's open to changing his read on Jowy.
In a situation where it's Jowy v CS I can understand the CS vote. However Barto did have 2 votes, could have gone there, otherwise his reason voting for CS was very similar to your reason for voting Jowy.
I'll say the way Pizza framed his Day 2 ISO is really bad. The buddying is problematic, but it could just as easily be Pizza exploiting my fear of it as it is Novice exploiting my weakness to it.
Pizza missed the post right before he voted Barto though. My issue with his questioning of Barto, it's a question that Barto has exhibited no intention to answer with any level of sincerity. To keep belaboring the point isn't terribly productive. I don't have the issue with the vote I guess, just the line of questioning. Is that whole vote and read genuine...maybe, but it's also possible that he's a player not familiar with my meta to know that I don't tunnel, especially across multiple phases.
In fairness to him though Pizza left out this question to Manasi, which I liked.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Originally Posted by novice
What flip did you think Pizza was waiting up for then?
Granted it wasn't that confrontational, it could be staged to some extent in a W/W scenario, but I still liked it.
Now onto the parts that Pizza left out of his novice ISO. He left out a bit, out of necessity. But there was some positives that were overlooked. There were many times where he said I'm going to ISO X and then came back and posted a snippet, or a confirmation about it and adjusted his reads.
The one that stood out the most was him going back to confirm Pizza's assessment of Champ's entrance to the game, though later he double backed on it and voted Champ siting I believe Jowy's and/or DP's logic about Champ having a good entrance but then bugging off afterwards. So that's the caveat to that whole behavior. There is quiet a big of white-noise questions, which I do a lot as scum to appear to the person I'm asking these questions that I'm engaging them, but for me to read that as AI is projecting because I don't have a reference point to novice.
But to me THIS looks very bad for him, worst thing I found in the ISO that I don't have an explanation for.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Originally Posted by novice
I'll probably move my vote after Cuth addresses it.
I like this post by Cuth, the rest seem well within his scum range.
Originally Posted by Cuthillius
noting, for the record, that novice has never played with me when i was scum
This reads as a genuine slip. Novice is active during this time, and even interacts with Cuth later, but avoids Cuth's statement all together. It is a bit surprising that Cuth didn't pursue this further at the time, but looking at this in the context of novice being scum, it looks rather damning.
I'm not ready to jump down on this and negate the other things about his post, I really want other's, Cuth especially about it, and why he didn't jump on it at the time to get some context.
So all that, what does it mean? Pizza definitely dinged my Town lean of novice all to hell, and I couldn't buff it out. I don't know if I'd go and see he's a scum lean, but I do think he's a lynch candidate. His flip will tell us a lot, especially about Manasi, Pizza, Bart and CS, to a lesser degree about the Champ slot, DP and Cuth.
But to me THIS looks very bad for him, worst thing I found in the ISO that I don't have an explanation for.
This reads as a genuine slip. Novice is active during this time, and even interacts with Cuth later, but avoids Cuth's statement all together. It is a bit surprising that Cuth didn't pursue this further at the time, but looking at this in the context of novice being scum, it looks rather damning.
I'm not ready to jump down on this and negate the other things about his post, I really want other's, Cuth especially about it, and why he didn't jump on it at the time to get some context.
Man screwed that up, that should read I don't want it to negate all my positive reads from the iso, but want other's, especially Cuth, to weigh in on it. (It being if they think it's a slip) and why Cuth didn't pursue this at the time.
Re: XCOM Mafia [In Play]
Originally Posted by Sooh
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