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  1. #1

    Default Safe Injection Sites

    Actually we could go broader than the title suggests.
    Harm reduction, a viable health strategy or simply greasing the wheels on a slippery slope?

    http://www.motherjones.com/environme...l-meth-needle/

    As noted in the article, Vancouver (Canada) had North Americas' first safe injection site.
    It has done nothing to reduce or deter drug use, but it has decreased the number of deaths from overdose, the spread of HIV and other complications from shared/re-used needles.
    On a law & order metric, I guess the experiment could be termed a failure.
    As a health program, it is very successful.

    Thoughts?
    Ja-mata TosaInu

  2. #2
    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
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    Default Re: Safe Injection Sites

    Britain was right to end the chinese war on drugs?
    Last edited by Greyblades; 07-05-2017 at 15:50.
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  3. #3
    Senior Member Senior Member Idaho's Avatar
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    Default Re: Safe Injection Sites

    Prohibition is ridiculous, illogical, immoral and self defeating. It survives through repeated reinforcing messages and feedback loops. Get prosecuted for drugs? Best chance to reduce the punishment is to say how you were 'trapped' and now you have been given a 'second chance' thanks m'lord.

    The biggest advocates of prohibition? Ex addicts working in the prohibition business.
    Last edited by Idaho; 07-05-2017 at 16:58.
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  4. #4
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Safe Injection Sites

    Quote Originally Posted by Idaho View Post
    Prohibition is ridiculous, illogical, immoral and self defeating. It survives through repeated reinforcing messages and feedback loops. Get prosecuted for drugs? Best chance to reduce the punishment is to say how you were 'trapped' and now you have been given a 'second chance' thanks m'lord.

    The biggest advocates of prohibition? Ex addicts working in the prohibition business.
    Lord God almighty....I find myself in near-complete agreement with Idaho on an issue....

    I dearly hope this is not a harbinger to Gabriel doing riffs on his trumpet.
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    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Safe Injection Sites

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    Lord God almighty....I find myself in near-complete agreement with Idaho on an issue....

    I dearly hope this is not a harbinger to Gabriel doing riffs on his trumpet.
    No, that happens when you, Idaho, me, Beskar, Hooahguy, Sarmation, Husar and Gilrandir all agree.

    I think we're safe.
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    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Safe Injection Sites

    OK, on topic.

    Let me make one point straight off - I'm not interested in making a moral argument against functioning addicts. Most people are functioning addicts of some nature or another, be it caffeine, alcohol or nicotine, or a mixture thereof.

    However, the people who end up in front of a judge aren't functional - if they were their habit would not have been exposed.

    Then you have to consider the addictive nature of opiates, remember that Opium, Laudanum, Heroin and Morphine all started out as medicines. Heroin was originally intended as a medication less addictive than Morphine I read something recently that people who get addicted to Morphine often end up that way when given as few as TWO spare doses after being sent home from hospital.

    It hurts, they take it, it hurts, they take it - they're hooked.

    It's this addictive nature that led to the banning of Opiates about a hundred years ago and I'm not convinced that "prohibition has failed" just because people still take recreational Opiates. By that metric all laws fail because people break them.

    So the way I see it you have two options - ban Opiates, ruin lives, spread diseases or un-ban Opiates, ruin lives, probably fewer diseases.

    So - the question, really, is how many more people would take Opiates if they were legal. Difficult to tell, but the UK's public smoking ban suggests that when an activity is restricted at least some addicts seek medical help to give up.
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    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Safe Injection Sites

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    No, that happens when you, Idaho, me, Beskar, Hooahguy, Sarmation, Husar and Gilrandir all agree.

    I think we're safe.
    Who said I agree?
    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
    The article exists for a reason yes, I did not write it...

  8. #8
    Horse Archer Senior Member Sarmatian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Safe Injection Sites

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    No, that happens when you, Idaho, me, Beskar, Hooahguy, Sarmation, Husar and Gilrandir all agree.

    I think we're safe.
    I think we can all agree that the user name is SarmatiAn.

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  9. #9

    Default Re: Safe Injection Sites

    Idaho, I think you are misunderstanding my position. Please see my reply to Monty about rehabilitation and preventative programs under a prohibitive law.


  10. #10

    Default Re: Safe Injection Sites

    Also, I am not saying it is immoral therefore it should be illegal. I am saying that setting up a system for people to legally become addicted and then milk them for tax money is abusive and therefore should be avoided. Since it is abusive, it happens to also be immoral.


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    Senior Member Senior Member Idaho's Avatar
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    Default Re: Safe Injection Sites

    Quote Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name View Post
    Also, I am not saying it is immoral therefore it should be illegal. I am saying that setting up a system for people to legally become addicted and then milk them for tax money is abusive and therefore should be avoided. Since it is abusive, it happens to also be immoral.
    True, if that's the way it would actually play out. But for some reason most people aren't drawn to the life of a heroin addict. And those that are, are almost always the most dismal, poor and *#*@ed over people. The kind that it's just plain spiteful to criminalise.
    "The republicans will draft your kids, poison the air and water, take away your social security and burn down black churches if elected." Gawain of Orkney

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    Senior Member Senior Member Idaho's Avatar
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    Default Re: Safe Injection Sites

    I am a regular cannabis user. Have been for 30 years. But I actually don't think that legalisation of cannabis is a priority. It's annoying, pointless and unjust that it is illegal, but it's not significant. Legalisation and control (influence?) of opiate, cocaine and amphetamine use - drugs I have no interest in using - is the big problem. Prohibition of those messes up lives and society.
    "The republicans will draft your kids, poison the air and water, take away your social security and burn down black churches if elected." Gawain of Orkney

  13. #13
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Safe Injection Sites

    Quote Originally Posted by Idaho View Post
    I am a regular cannabis user. Have been for 30 years. But I actually don't think that legalisation of cannabis is a priority. It's annoying, pointless and unjust that it is illegal, but it's not significant. Legalisation and control (influence?) of opiate, cocaine and amphetamine use - drugs I have no interest in using - is the big problem. Prohibition of those messes up lives and society.
    Legalisation should happen so they can be taxed. "Sin" taxes are already a safe way to raise taxes. Eliminate the black market so the market can generate revenue for the state and not just the dealers.

  14. #14
    Senior Member Senior Member Idaho's Avatar
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    Default Re: Safe Injection Sites

    You will always have dealers. Whether they be state, corporation or black market. It's just about taxing them, and making them operate within civilised norms. This will always be a struggle, but there is massive scope for rapid improvement.
    "The republicans will draft your kids, poison the air and water, take away your social security and burn down black churches if elected." Gawain of Orkney

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    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Safe Injection Sites

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    Legalisation should happen so they can be taxed. "Sin" taxes are already a safe way to raise taxes. Eliminate the black market so the market can generate revenue for the state and not just the dealers.
    You realise there's a hug Black Market in Cigarettes, right?

    We're focusing on illegal opiate addicts - heroin addicts - we aren't looking at morphine addicts or functional addicts who are wealthy enough to pay for high-quality product. A lot of the people you see on the street are those who can't afford good product, or who can't afford product without failing to pay the rent.

    These visible addicts are quite possibly the tip of the iceberg.

    Whether that means you should tighten restrictions or legalise though, difficult to say. If you legalise there's a pretty good chance usage will go up. There may be more addicts, and depending on the price of legal heroin they may still end up broke and on the streets.

    At the same time, people will definitely bug legal heroin, cut it and sell it on the black market to make a profit - because that will make them lots of money.
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  16. #16

    Default Re: Safe Injection Sites

    Quote Originally Posted by Idaho View Post
    True, if that's the way it would actually play out. But for some reason most people aren't drawn to the life of a heroin addict. And those that are, are almost always the most dismal, poor and *#*@ed over people. The kind that it's just plain spiteful to criminalise.
    Nobody is drawn to the life of a heroin addict. Yet here they are...

    YOu are not even trying to understand me. There is a difference between making someone a criminal and making someone a patient. I am advocating for the latter.


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