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Thread: SIM-card registration

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    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default SIM-card registration

    This idea visits our legislators from time to time. So far Ukraine enjoys free from registration purchase of SIM cards. You can buy a SIM card without identifying yourself. But once in a few years there appears a bill that mandates registration of the functioning SIM cards and selling of the new ones on condition of the user's registration. So, I would like to ask:
    1. What is the law in your home country - are SIM cards registered (as in Russia) or unidentified?
    2. What is your attitude to either system?
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    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: SIM-card registration

    I think we just introduced new legislation that requires a registration.

    I don't think it's bad since I always owned one registered to me anyway.
    I'm not sure what the point is though given that it does not seem to stop criminal activity.
    When my phone was stolen the guy called a friend who had a card registered to some lady in Berlin (other side of Germany). Obviously the registration to the lady was useless. It might be a better idea to somehow make people who lose their SIM or have it stolen deactivate it.

    Her lack of awareness and neglection may have enabled a criminal to make calls anonymously under her name...

    An unregistered card would be out there for anyone to use and noone to deactivate I guess.


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    Ja mata, TosaInu Forum Administrator edyzmedieval's Avatar
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    Default Re: SIM-card registration

    It's the exact same in Romania. Every other year they reintroduce a bill to do registration for prepaid SIM cards.
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    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: SIM-card registration

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    I think we just introduced new legislation that requires a registration.

    I don't think it's bad since I always owned one registered to me anyway.
    What about privacy and stuff like that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    I'm not sure what the point is though given that it does not seem to stop criminal activity.
    I don't see a point in singling out SIM cards (aiming to "protect" phones, no doubt) and overlooking other commodities. Why not register tablets, vacuum cleaners or refrigerators?

    Quote Originally Posted by edyzmedieval View Post
    It's the exact same in Romania. Every other year they reintroduce a bill to do registration for prepaid SIM cards.
    Does it mean the bill becomes a law? In Ukraine it has never come to this (so far).
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    Default Re: SIM-card registration

    Apparently this is huge in Africa.

    Concerns do exist about government intrusiveness (Big Brother style) because of the ability to track sim cards. This is especially true of Africa, of course, where little or no "legacy" phone system exists that can offer an alternative means of communication..

    While the ability to track a sim card does not necessarily mean you are tracking individuals, most individuals keep their phones with or near them on a constant basis, providing a de facto tracking capability.

    It is not difficult to see how such a tracking capacity would aid the efforts of policing....for good and for ill both.


    USA sim cards are not registered....with the government. Effectively they are registered with the phone service provider being used, except in the case of 'burner' phones. On the other hand, the NSA has the computing power and satellite access to scoop up all of the calls and get the info anyway, as long as the have the appropriate warrant.
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  6. #6
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: SIM-card registration

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    What about privacy and stuff like that?
    It's not like they're listening to your calls and at least here, the data collected by the providers is subject to telecommunication privacy laws and can only be requested with a warrant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    I don't see a point in singling out SIM cards (aiming to "protect" phones, no doubt) and overlooking other commodities. Why not register tablets, vacuum cleaners or refrigerators?
    What would be the point of that? To use any of these devices for criminal activities, they usually need to be connected to a landline or a wireless network via SIM card. By tracking these access points, you cover your bases mostly. Knowing the owner of an offline device is relatively useless unless you are in the business of advertising.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    Concerns do exist about government intrusiveness (Big Brother style) because of the ability to track sim cards. This is especially true of Africa, of course, where little or no "legacy" phone system exists that can offer an alternative means of communication..

    While the ability to track a sim card does not necessarily mean you are tracking individuals, most individuals keep their phones with or near them on a constant basis, providing a de facto tracking capability.

    It is not difficult to see how such a tracking capacity would aid the efforts of policing....for good and for ill both.

    USA sim cards are not registered....with the government. Effectively they are registered with the phone service provider being used, except in the case of 'burner' phones. On the other hand, the NSA has the computing power and satellite access to scoop up all of the calls and get the info anyway, as long as the have the appropriate warrant.
    It's the same here AFAIK, the phone carrier is the one with whom you register, I was assuming these proposed laws require the same. The carrier is required to keep the data private and can only give it to the police if they have a warrant. Or that's the theory at least.
    SIM card tracking aka triangulation is only really useful in the African steppes though because it's not very exact and if it traces to a city block you usually cannot search the entire block in a law-abiding country.
    Smartphones with GPS can be located more precisely, provided you have backdoor access to make the phone send its location to you. There was a small scandal when someone found out that iPhones stored all your movements in a file on the internal memory. IIRC Apple called it a mistake and "fixed" it.

    https://www.theguardian.com/technolo...-privacy-fears


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  7. #7
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: SIM-card registration

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    What would be the point of that? To use any of these devices for criminal activities, they usually need to be connected to a landline or a wireless network via SIM card. By tracking these access points, you cover your bases mostly. Knowing the owner of an offline device is relatively useless unless you are in the business of advertising.
    Mobile phones are just another device brought in by the advent of technologies. I don't see the purpose of registering them more than registering TV sets or mixers. If you believe that registration is useful in attempts to curb crime - well, then let's register everything that can be used to commit crimes. One can kill with a hair dryer - why not register them all? If registration is helpful in tracking people - why there should ever be a need to track people if they don't want to? We again come to the privacy issue.
    Last edited by Gilrandir; 08-24-2017 at 04:59.
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    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: SIM-card registration

    You have to register TV's here, and purchases of expensive electrical goods is registered with police when ordering via Amazon to prevent thief in transit. Over here, you have to register with the phone company to use their service, such as you have to register on the Org to use our service. Your posts are all marked as Gilrandir, this is helpful in tracking who posted it. Though unlike phone companies, we don't charge you, but we can give an infraction for bad conduct or abuse of our services.
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    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: SIM-card registration

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    You have to register TV's here,
    Do you mean the very device or rather its being connected to antenna?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    and purchases of expensive electrical goods is registered with police when ordering via Amazon to prevent thief in transit.
    Is the registration mandatory or strongly advised? Anyway, it is done for YOUR sake, and not for some imaginary public security reasons.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    Over here, you have to register with the phone company to use their service
    Do you mean the landline telephone? Than it is logical since it is kind of appended to your residence and your address is not private information.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    you have to register on the Org to use our service. Your posts are all marked as Gilrandir, this is helpful in tracking who posted it. Though unlike phone companies, we don't charge you, but we can give an infraction for bad conduct or abuse of our services.
    But you know me as Gilrandir only and don't require any proof of it nor my real name. While registering SIM cards (in Russia) you are to produce your passport which contains information on your residence, so the authorities know both your name and your address. This is what I strongly object to.
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    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: SIM-card registration

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    Do you mean the very device or rather its being connected to antenna?
    Very device, because we have a TV licence over here. You have to pay just to own a TV. Only way to get around it is to not have a TV, or extensively modify it so it is impossible for it to receive a TV signal.

    Is the registration mandatory or strongly advised? Anyway, it is done for YOUR sake, and not for some imaginary public security reasons.
    It uses the https://thenmpr.com/home and https://www.checkmend.com/uk

    I think Amazon does it as standard practice. Unsure if it is mandatory.

    Do you mean the landline telephone? Than it is logical since it is kind of appended to your residence and your address is not private information.
    No, all telecommunications. So mobile phone and landland.

    For so-called 'burner' phones, I believe you just write down your name, address, etc on a card (though this was the case 6 or so years ago when I got a new SIM) but they probably moved it online. I don't know if they then check if the information is legitimate or not.
    Last edited by Beskar; 08-24-2017 at 18:48.
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  11. #11
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: SIM-card registration

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    Very device, because we have a TV licence over here. You have to pay just to own a TV.
    What if you buy a second (a third) TV? One more registration?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    No, all telecommunications. So mobile phone and landland.

    For so-called 'burner' phones, I believe you just write down your name, address, etc on a card (though this was the case 6 or so years ago when I got a new SIM) but they probably moved it online. I don't know if they then check if the information is legitimate or not.
    I see. And what do you think of it? Are you OK with it or would you prefer to stay unknown?

    Anyway in Russia it gave ground to a whole black market of unregisterd (or rather registered on fake people or more often organisations) SIM cards.
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    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: SIM-card registration

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    What if you buy a second (a third) TV? One more registration?
    Every TV purchased. Even if you are throwing your old one away (you don't 'deregister'). Though for the TV licence, it is purchased per household, so your kid having a TV won't charge you more.

    I see. And what do you think of it? Are you OK with it or would you prefer to stay unknown?
    It doesn't effect me. I can understand why people would be more concerned in other countries due to certain political reasons, Russia being one of these.
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    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: SIM-card registration

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    It doesn't effect me. I can understand why people would be more concerned in other countries due to certain political reasons, Russia being one of these.
    I'm more concerned with privacy issues and in this aspect SIM card registration seems to me illogical violation of the said privacy. As much illogical as railway and plane tickets being "registered" (bearing the passenger's name) and bus tickets being anonymous. At least in Ukraine.
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    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: SIM-card registration

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    Mobile phones are just another device brought in by the advent of technologies. I don't see the purpose of registering them more than registering TV sets or mixers. If you believe that registration is useful in attempts to curb crime - well, then let's register everything that can be used to commit crimes. One can kill with a hair dryer - why not register them all? If registration is helpful in tracking people - why there should ever be a need to track people if they don't want to? We again come to the privacy issue.
    Then explain to me how you would use a TV set or a mixer for criminal activities or terrorism?
    And before you say anything, note that your first sentence is already completely out of context since it's not the mobile phone that you register, but the SIM card. The SIM card can be removed from the mobile phone and used with a different one. The mobile phone can also be used without the SIM card.
    What you do by connecting a name with a SIM card is connect a name with the communication that it is used for. The communication is the object of interest and now I wait for you to explain how you communicate with a toaster.

    edit to add: Landlines are already registered by the way, that's why criminals used to call from phone booths and then switched to unregistered SIM cards. SIM card registration would just bring mobile communication to the same level of registration that stationary lines already have.
    Last edited by Husar; 08-24-2017 at 23:01.


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    Default Re: SIM-card registration

    The communication is the object of interest and now I wait for you to explain how you communicate with a toaster.
    IoT junk. Easy to compromise anyway, or so they say.
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    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: SIM-card registration

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    IoT junk. Easy to compromise anyway, or so they say.


    Well, even your chatty toaster will need a device that shares a landline or mobile connection (via SIM card) in order to connect to the Internet of Toasters. Therefore registering the device that allows a direct connection to ISP internet nodes is sufficient. In Germany it's not a good idea to have unencrypted WiFi because if someone parks in front of your house and uploads child porn using your unsecured WiFi, you will be held responsible. That's actually why you will find no or very few unsecured WiFi locations even in German inner cities.

    It's true though that many IoT devices, including "Smart" TVs are not very secure and often get compromised, e.g. for use in bot networks so they participate in DoS attacks and the likes.
    https://www.engadget.com/2017/04/25/...smart-devices/

    Permanent denial-of-service botnets like these can infect poorly-protected IoT devices like smart toasters and web-enabled vibrators to bring down various connected web servers.
    Your smart toaster and vibrator may actually be part of a criminal network.


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  17. #17
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: SIM-card registration

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    Then explain to me how you would use a TV set or a mixer for criminal activities or terrorism?
    Beside the obvious usage of the devices to kill someone (like dropping a TV set on somebody's head from a top floor or immersing a plugged in mixer into a bath where someone is lying) one can offer a more sophisticated ways to use a TV set for criminal activity and/or terrorism. In fact, it is the way Russia uses television spawning hate shows or airing fake news which eventually made numerous Russians go to Donbas and join "the oppressed Russian speakers revolting against Nazi junta in Kyiv". Radio can be used to this end too. Have you ever heard of Radio Thousand hills?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_...Mille_Collines

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    And before you say anything, note that your first sentence is already completely out of context since it's not the mobile phone that you register, but the SIM card. The SIM card can be removed from the mobile phone and used with a different one. The mobile phone can also be used without the SIM card.
    I agree that it is the SIM card that is registered, I just used phone as a metonymy (part for whole type). But while the phone can be used without a SIM card (not for communication though), the card is useless without the phone (well, you can butter your scones with it or use as a book marker, but it is not its real use, is it?). So one may say you kind of register your phone too when you register the SIM card.

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    What you do by connecting a name with a SIM card is connect a name with the communication that it is used for. The communication is the object of interest and now I wait for you to explain how you communicate with a toaster.
    First of all, some people marry a TV set (http://www.pravdareport.com/news/soc...-2002/25696-0/), so why can't others communicate with a toaster? They sing for hair dryers and say that they sing INTO them - liers!

    Second of all (the bolded statement), I don't see why my life (and communication as a part of it) should be a matter of unauthorized and unsolicited interest to anyone. I believe this is called privacy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    edit to add: Landlines are already registered by the way, that's why criminals used to call from phone booths and then switched to unregistered SIM cards. SIM card registration would just bring mobile communication to the same level of registration that stationary lines already have.
    Believe me, if some criminal wants to keep his communication secret, he will find a way to do this even if all mobile phones... oops SIM cards are registered. The first way is internet, the second is the one used in Russia - fakely registered SIM cards sold illegaly.
    Last edited by Gilrandir; 08-25-2017 at 13:43.
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  18. #18
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: SIM-card registration

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    Beside the obvious usage of the devices to kill someone (like dropping a TV set on somebody's head from a top floor or immersing a plugged in mixer into a bath where someone is lying) one can offer a more sophisticated ways to use a TV set for criminal activity and/or terrorism. In fact, it is the way Russia uses television spawning hate shows or airing fake news which eventually made numerous Russians go to Donbas and join "the oppressed Russian speakers revolting against Nazi junta in Kyiv". Radio can be used to this end too. Have you ever heard of Radio Thousand hills?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_...Mille_Collines
    Exactly, the government should register all TV to stop itself from spreading terrorism in other countries.
    This really convinces me that SIM card registration is a bad thing.

    I know I asked, but I thought we would stay in context.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    Second of all (the bolded statement), I don't see why my life (and communication as a part of it) should be a matter of unauthorized and unsolicited interest to anyone. I believe this is called privacy.
    That would be a nice statement if we knew for sure that you didn't plan to blow us other people up, unauthorized even.
    It's not private when you kill others. And I already mentioned that carriers are (in decent countries) required to store the data securely so it stays private until a judge sees enough evidence of wrongdoing to authorize access to it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    Believe me, if some criminal wants to keep his communication secret, he will find a way to do this even if all mobile phones... oops SIM cards are registered. The first way is internet, the second is the one used in Russia - fakely registered SIM cards sold illegaly.
    Believe me, if you have nothing to hide, your privacy can be violated all day and you have nothing to fear.

    "the internet" is funny, because that's exactly why you want SIM cards to be registered, because they're interfaces to the internet. If it's easy to register them using fake names then your security methods are insufficient or you're likely dealing with very sophisticated criminals with access to fake IDs. You could use the same reasoning not to put up signs for speed restrictions because a simple step on the gas pedal can make anyone go faster anyway. SIM card registration makes life harder for amyn criminals and hardly affects the average person unless they live in a dictatorship anyway. But in the latter case they don't get a choice in the matter and it's pointless to discuss.

    Cars are also registered to an owner here via the number plate. It doesn't stop sophisticated criminals from changing the number plates, but it's still useful in a whole lot of situations.
    Last edited by Husar; 08-25-2017 at 14:11.


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    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: SIM-card registration

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    Exactly, the government should register all TV to stop itself from spreading terrorism in other countries.
    This really convinces me that SIM card registration is a bad thing.
    Then go all the way and get mixers, toasters and vibrators registered. Things can really be put to dangerous uses. The more of them are registered the safer your life will be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    That would be a nice statement if we knew for sure that you didn't plan to blow us other people up, unauthorized even.
    It's not private when you kill others. And I already mentioned that carriers are (in decent countries) required to store the data securely so it stays private until a judge sees enough evidence of wrongdoing to authorize access to it.
    Until I haven't killed others or planned to do so (and haven't been involved into any other criminal activities) I would like my life to stay private.

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    Believe me, if you have nothing to hide, your privacy can be violated all day and you have nothing to fear.
    Oh really? So far I haven't committed any crimes (= have nothing to hide), yet I don't like people poking their noses into my life even if it won't result in me feeling fear. Other feelings (exasperation, indignation, insecurity) are not pleasant to experience either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    "the internet" is funny, because that's exactly why you want SIM cards to be registered, because they're interfaces to the internet.
    There are other ways of internet access besides SIM cards. By the way, Estonia provides free Wi-fi all over the country (= no internet access registration) yet I can't remember any terroristic attacks there and crime isn't that rampant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    Exactly, the government should register all TV to stop itself from spreading terrorism in other countries.
    This really convinces me that SIM card registration is a bad thing.

    If it's easy to register them using fake names then your security methods are insufficient or you're likely dealing with very sophisticated criminals with access to fake IDs. You could use the same reasoning not to put up signs for speed restrictions because a simple step on the gas pedal can make anyone go faster anyway. SIM card registration makes life harder for amyn criminals and hardly affects the average person unless they live in a dictatorship anyway. But in the latter case they don't get a choice in the matter and it's pointless to discuss.

    Cars are also registered to an owner here via the number plate. It doesn't stop sophisticated criminals from changing the number plates, but it's still useful in a whole lot of situations.
    Ok. You convinced me. Having everything registered as it is in Germany, the UK or in Russia makes society much safer than in Romania or Ukraine... wait a bit! weren't there any terroristic attacks resulting in numerous casualties in Ukraine which is at war or in Romania? Hardly. Weren't there any in Germany and the UK recently or in Russia in 2000? Register 'em all, way to go.
    Last edited by Gilrandir; 08-25-2017 at 15:29.
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    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: SIM-card registration

    Admittedly, for my phone SIM, I am on a pay monthly contract as it is significantly cheaper and more affordable. We also have to provide proof (Passport, etc) of who we are at banks too if want to open an account or make significant changes, or withdraw money and we fail their security checks to just hand it over.
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    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: SIM-card registration

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    Then go all the way and get mixers, toasters and vibrators registered. Things can really be put to dangerous uses. The more of them are registered the safer your life will be.

    Until I haven't killed others or planned to do so (and haven't been involved into any other criminal activities) I would like my life to stay private.

    Oh really? So far I haven't committed any crimes (= have nothing to hide), yet I don't like people poking their noses into my life even if it won't result in me feeling fear. Other feelings (exasperation, indignation, insecurity) are not pleasant to experience either.

    There are other ways of internet access besides SIM cards. By the way, Estonia provides free Wi-fi all over the country (= no internet access registration) yet I can't remember any terroristic attacks there and crime isn't that rampant.

    Ok. You convinced me. Having everything registered as it is in Germany, the UK or in Russia makes society much safer than in Romania or Ukraine... wait a bit! weren't there any terroristic attacks resulting in numerous casualties in Ukraine which is at war or in Romania? Hardly. Weren't there any in Germany and the UK recently or in Russia in 2000? Register 'em all, way to go.
    Now we're deep in Gilrandir-type discussion territory and I'll just say that what you say is partially pointless, some of it I have already answered and the rest mostly misses the point. I'm not really interested in continuing the discussion for five or twenty pages though, so have a nice day.


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    Default Re: SIM-card registration

    The laws of SIM-card registry are being proposed, but they never made it into law. They're trying though. Every year.
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  23. #23
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: SIM-card registration

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    Admittedly, for my phone SIM, I am on a pay monthly contract as it is significantly cheaper and more affordable. We also have to provide proof (Passport, etc) of who we are at banks too if want to open an account or make significant changes, or withdraw money and we fail their security checks to just hand it over.
    This is a different case. In banks you ASK FOR MONEY from them, so they have a right to know who you are. In case of SIM cards you PAY MONEY to buy it, so no one is supposed to display such an interest.

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    Now we're deep in Gilrandir-type discussion territory and I'll just say that what you say is partially pointless, some of it I have already answered and the rest mostly misses the point. I'm not really interested in continuing the discussion for five or twenty pages though, so have a nice day.
    If you are so pro-registering, I wonder why you don't give your real name registering at the Org. Generally I may note that your evaluation of the discussion is arbitrary, so have a nice day too.

    Quote Originally Posted by edyzmedieval View Post
    The laws of SIM-card registry are being proposed, but they never made it into law. They're trying though. Every year.
    Let's hope they will never pass it. Both in Romania and in Ukraine.
    Last edited by Gilrandir; 08-26-2017 at 16:27.
    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
    The article exists for a reason yes, I did not write it...

  24. #24
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: SIM-card registration

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    If you are so pro-registering, I wonder why you don't give your real name registering at the Org.
    Just so you can stop wondering: Because if your analogy worked, you could then only read the Org after getting permission from a judge after proving to him that I'm likely dangerous, and being a member of the police force of course...


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  25. #25
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: SIM-card registration

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    Just so you can stop wondering: Because if your analogy worked, you could then only read the Org after getting permission from a judge after proving to him that I'm likely dangerous, and being a member of the police force of course...

    Since you are back in the discussion it means your day wasn't that nice after all?
    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
    The article exists for a reason yes, I did not write it...

  26. #26
    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: SIM-card registration

    We actually have Husar's name, address and phone number at the Org. Enough to keep him as our slave.
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  27. #27
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: SIM-card registration

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    We actually have Husar's name, address and phone number at the Org. Enough to keep him as our slave.
    Nah! Not enough. Pin code of his credit card would do it better.
    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
    The article exists for a reason yes, I did not write it...

  28. #28
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: SIM-card registration

    Being in the UK, I'm OK with it. If I were in Russia / China / probably the USA at the moment I'd be more concerned.

    But the reality is no one cares what I say / write / think. If I got one of those "secure" phones, routed all my calls via an encrypted service I imagine I'd be of more interest to the authorities than I am at the moment being one in 65 million. If you have a legitimate reason to be worried about being tracked - don't have a phone. They will get in somehow.

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