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Thread: Backroom Errata

  1. #31

    Default Re: Backroom Errata

    To be fair, if you want to go full socialist you end up critiquing hierarchy in all forms. regardless of ownership. No seperate spheres of life, collapsing into one field. I'm not sure I'm prepared to take it that far.

    Ah, Mr. Ni Dieu ni maitre?
    Vitiate Man.

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  2. #32

    Default Re: Backroom Errata

    I am reposting "Some Puzzles for Libertarians". There isn't anything new here, but I like the formulation.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Is there a meaningful difference between coercion by the state and coercion by private entities?

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    No, of course there isn’t, and it is mystifying that libertarians refuse to recognize the totalitarian nature of capitalism.


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Can you construct a theory of property rights that does not suffer from internal incoherence or depend on specious natural law assumptions?

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    No, you can’t.


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Deep in the forest, thousands of miles from civilization, there is an isolated village. It has not seen contact with any other humans for a long time. It is, however, a pleasant and flourishing community, which strongly values freedom and entrepreneurship. There is, however, one tiny quirk. In this village, there is a ritual. Every year, a boy who reaches 18 is cannibalized. It brings the rains, or something. But despite its taste for cannibalism, this village wishes to live in accordance with libertarian principles. Thus, they will only cannibalize the boy if he consents. In order to encourage this to happen, they will put tremendous social pressure on the boy. All through his youth, they will tell him they believe the future of the village depends on his consenting. His parents tell him that he would bring great shame on the household if he refused, which is true. The choice nevertheless rests with the boy, and whatever he chooses will be respected. The parents and villagers attempt to persuade him, but never lie to him, and make clear that they would never force his choice. However: if the boy refuses to be cannibalized, the village has a backup plan. The boy will be blacklisted. No shopkeeper will sell him food, no hotel will give him a room, no hospital will treat him, no employer will hire him. After all, under libertarian principles, nobody can be told how to use their property. The boy’s parents, ashamed of him, will turn him out of the house with no money. He may leave the village, but it is certain death, for thousands of miles of desolate wolf-infested wilderness stand between him and other humans and he has no food. (The wilderness is also privately-owned, and he cannot pay the admission fee.) He is shunned and despised, left to wander the streets in a futile search for shelter and sustenance. However, no force is exercised against him. He is never touched or arrested. He is treated as nonexistent, as the villagers await his demise. So the boy starves to death. The villagers then cannibalize his emaciated corpse, reasoning that they cannot be compelled to give him a dignified burial (plus he died on private property, collapsing in a flowerbed).

    Is eating the boy’s corpse after he dies the only potential violation of libertarian principles in the village? Is every single other aspect of this completely permissible?

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Yes, because libertarian principles are psychotic, every other aspect of this is permissible under a libertarian framework.


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    The Infinitely Rich Man is not infinitely rich. He is just very, very rich. Nobody knows quite how rich. One day, you happened to meet the Infinitely Rich Man in a bar. At first he was friendly, but soon you found yourselves in an argument about horses. You were for them, and he was against them. Or perhaps you were against them, and he was for them. You don’t actually remember how it went. As you parted ways, you expected never to see the Infinitely Rich Man again. Little do you know: the Infinitely Rich Man now despises you. His sole desire on earth is to see you unhappy. This should hardly trouble you, though. After all, you have a good job at a castanet factory. You own your own home, which has a picturesque lake view. You have a wife, whom you love and who loves you. You also have a prized possession, your 1972 Pontiac Lemans. You don’t have much spare cash, but this never bothers you because of your stable job. The Infinitely Rich Man is also a strict Libertarian. He believes it is illegitimate for anyone to initiate force against another. And because you are fortunate enough to live in a Libertarian world, you are free to enjoy those things you treasure most in the world without being bothered by the state or the Infinitely Rich Man. The Infinitely Rich Man is not discouraged, however. He still believes he can ruin you. He will be a Count of Monte Cristo, but an extremely law-abiding one. The first thing the Infinitely Rich Man does is buy the castanet factory where you work. He immediately fires you. He also makes sure that if any other employers inquire about you, the castanet factory will refuse to serve as a reference. Not that this matters, for he intends to bribe any other castanet company who hires you into firing you. (There are four castanet companies.) You therefore find yourself unemployed. Fortunately, you have a skill. You know how to make castanets! (Castanets are very popular.) So you scrape together what money you have, and you open a little drive-thru castanet stand out on Route 9. But the Infinitely Rich Man has a plan. He opens a stand next to yours. At his stand, castanets are free. He gives them away by the truckload. He sets the whole world clacking. You cannot compete. You are ruined. At least you still have your wife, your friends, your lakeview home, your 1972 Pontiac Lemans. But the Infinitely Rich Man has a plan. First, he buys the lake. He fills it with concrete. No more lake view, and your property value diminishes by $100,000. Then, he buys every house around yours, flattens it, and turns it into a landfill. The smell doesn’t reach your home, but it turns the neighborhood unsightly and desolate. Your house becomes worthless. The Infinitely Rich Man buys the heating company and refuses to provide gas to your home at any price. (You try to talk other gas companies into competing, but they refuse; laying a new main for a single home would be absurd, they say.) But you have a wife! And friends! And you get to drive a 1972 Pontiac Lemans! The Infinitely Rich Man offers a bribe. Any of your friends who refuse to speak with you ever again will receive a salary of one million dollars per year. At first, many decline to take the bribe. But sooner or later, most of them have one or another sticky financial situation, and they give in. Goodbye, vast majority of your friends! At least your wife loves you. But one day, she becomes ill. She finds out that she will die, unless she goes on a treatment regimen for the rest of her life. The regimen costs $100,000 a month. The Infinitely Rich man pops up, and offers to pay. The one condition is that she divorce you, cut contact, and never speak with you again. As soon as she breaks the agreement, he will cease to pay for the treatment. You love your wife, but you do not want her to die. You both agree that it is better that she should accept. At least you can drive your 1972 Pontiac Lemans. Oh, but wait. The Infinitely Rich Man invests heavily in electric energy. Slowly, he makes gasoline-powered transit obsolete. He buys the oil companies, burns the gasoline, and converts every gas pump to a charging station. You can only drive your Lemans short distances, using some of the last gallons of available petrol, which you ordered from the internet. (That is, if the Infinitely Rich Man didn’t outbid you!) They don’t make the Pontiac Lemans anymore. Parts therefore exist only in small quantities. The Infinitely Rich Man buys up all existing Lemans parts. The moment it breaks, you are out of luck. As you sit alone, broke, and starving in the garage of your unheated home, caressing your disabled Lemans, thinking about your long-gone wife, your lake view, and your job, you are thankful that you live in a world of freedom, where nobody can encroach upon the liberty of another.

    Questions for Libertarians: Has the non-aggression principle been violated? Should the Infinitely Rich Man suffer any civil or criminal penalties for his actions?

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    No, it hasn’t. And of course he should, but he can’t be under a libertarian framework, because, again, libertarianism is psychotic.
    Vitiate Man.

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  3. #33
    Ni dieu ni maître! Senior Member a completely inoffensive name's Avatar
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    Default Re: Backroom Errata

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    I am reposting "Some Puzzles for Libertarians". There isn't anything new here, but I like the formulation.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Is there a meaningful difference between coercion by the state and coercion by private entities?

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    No, of course there isn’t, and it is mystifying that libertarians refuse to recognize the totalitarian nature of capitalism.


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Can you construct a theory of property rights that does not suffer from internal incoherence or depend on specious natural law assumptions?

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    No, you can’t.


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Deep in the forest, thousands of miles from civilization, there is an isolated village. It has not seen contact with any other humans for a long time. It is, however, a pleasant and flourishing community, which strongly values freedom and entrepreneurship. There is, however, one tiny quirk. In this village, there is a ritual. Every year, a boy who reaches 18 is cannibalized. It brings the rains, or something. But despite its taste for cannibalism, this village wishes to live in accordance with libertarian principles. Thus, they will only cannibalize the boy if he consents. In order to encourage this to happen, they will put tremendous social pressure on the boy. All through his youth, they will tell him they believe the future of the village depends on his consenting. His parents tell him that he would bring great shame on the household if he refused, which is true. The choice nevertheless rests with the boy, and whatever he chooses will be respected. The parents and villagers attempt to persuade him, but never lie to him, and make clear that they would never force his choice. However: if the boy refuses to be cannibalized, the village has a backup plan. The boy will be blacklisted. No shopkeeper will sell him food, no hotel will give him a room, no hospital will treat him, no employer will hire him. After all, under libertarian principles, nobody can be told how to use their property. The boy’s parents, ashamed of him, will turn him out of the house with no money. He may leave the village, but it is certain death, for thousands of miles of desolate wolf-infested wilderness stand between him and other humans and he has no food. (The wilderness is also privately-owned, and he cannot pay the admission fee.) He is shunned and despised, left to wander the streets in a futile search for shelter and sustenance. However, no force is exercised against him. He is never touched or arrested. He is treated as nonexistent, as the villagers await his demise. So the boy starves to death. The villagers then cannibalize his emaciated corpse, reasoning that they cannot be compelled to give him a dignified burial (plus he died on private property, collapsing in a flowerbed).

    Is eating the boy’s corpse after he dies the only potential violation of libertarian principles in the village? Is every single other aspect of this completely permissible?

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Yes, because libertarian principles are psychotic, every other aspect of this is permissible under a libertarian framework.


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    The Infinitely Rich Man is not infinitely rich. He is just very, very rich. Nobody knows quite how rich. One day, you happened to meet the Infinitely Rich Man in a bar. At first he was friendly, but soon you found yourselves in an argument about horses. You were for them, and he was against them. Or perhaps you were against them, and he was for them. You don’t actually remember how it went. As you parted ways, you expected never to see the Infinitely Rich Man again. Little do you know: the Infinitely Rich Man now despises you. His sole desire on earth is to see you unhappy. This should hardly trouble you, though. After all, you have a good job at a castanet factory. You own your own home, which has a picturesque lake view. You have a wife, whom you love and who loves you. You also have a prized possession, your 1972 Pontiac Lemans. You don’t have much spare cash, but this never bothers you because of your stable job. The Infinitely Rich Man is also a strict Libertarian. He believes it is illegitimate for anyone to initiate force against another. And because you are fortunate enough to live in a Libertarian world, you are free to enjoy those things you treasure most in the world without being bothered by the state or the Infinitely Rich Man. The Infinitely Rich Man is not discouraged, however. He still believes he can ruin you. He will be a Count of Monte Cristo, but an extremely law-abiding one. The first thing the Infinitely Rich Man does is buy the castanet factory where you work. He immediately fires you. He also makes sure that if any other employers inquire about you, the castanet factory will refuse to serve as a reference. Not that this matters, for he intends to bribe any other castanet company who hires you into firing you. (There are four castanet companies.) You therefore find yourself unemployed. Fortunately, you have a skill. You know how to make castanets! (Castanets are very popular.) So you scrape together what money you have, and you open a little drive-thru castanet stand out on Route 9. But the Infinitely Rich Man has a plan. He opens a stand next to yours. At his stand, castanets are free. He gives them away by the truckload. He sets the whole world clacking. You cannot compete. You are ruined. At least you still have your wife, your friends, your lakeview home, your 1972 Pontiac Lemans. But the Infinitely Rich Man has a plan. First, he buys the lake. He fills it with concrete. No more lake view, and your property value diminishes by $100,000. Then, he buys every house around yours, flattens it, and turns it into a landfill. The smell doesn’t reach your home, but it turns the neighborhood unsightly and desolate. Your house becomes worthless. The Infinitely Rich Man buys the heating company and refuses to provide gas to your home at any price. (You try to talk other gas companies into competing, but they refuse; laying a new main for a single home would be absurd, they say.) But you have a wife! And friends! And you get to drive a 1972 Pontiac Lemans! The Infinitely Rich Man offers a bribe. Any of your friends who refuse to speak with you ever again will receive a salary of one million dollars per year. At first, many decline to take the bribe. But sooner or later, most of them have one or another sticky financial situation, and they give in. Goodbye, vast majority of your friends! At least your wife loves you. But one day, she becomes ill. She finds out that she will die, unless she goes on a treatment regimen for the rest of her life. The regimen costs $100,000 a month. The Infinitely Rich man pops up, and offers to pay. The one condition is that she divorce you, cut contact, and never speak with you again. As soon as she breaks the agreement, he will cease to pay for the treatment. You love your wife, but you do not want her to die. You both agree that it is better that she should accept. At least you can drive your 1972 Pontiac Lemans. Oh, but wait. The Infinitely Rich Man invests heavily in electric energy. Slowly, he makes gasoline-powered transit obsolete. He buys the oil companies, burns the gasoline, and converts every gas pump to a charging station. You can only drive your Lemans short distances, using some of the last gallons of available petrol, which you ordered from the internet. (That is, if the Infinitely Rich Man didn’t outbid you!) They don’t make the Pontiac Lemans anymore. Parts therefore exist only in small quantities. The Infinitely Rich Man buys up all existing Lemans parts. The moment it breaks, you are out of luck. As you sit alone, broke, and starving in the garage of your unheated home, caressing your disabled Lemans, thinking about your long-gone wife, your lake view, and your job, you are thankful that you live in a world of freedom, where nobody can encroach upon the liberty of another.

    Questions for Libertarians: Has the non-aggression principle been violated? Should the Infinitely Rich Man suffer any civil or criminal penalties for his actions?

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    No, it hasn’t. And of course he should, but he can’t be under a libertarian framework, because, again, libertarianism is psychotic.
    This post gave my social democratic brain a mental erection.
    In all these papers we see a love of honest work, an aversion to shams, a caution in the enunciation of conclusions, a distrust of rash generalizations and speculations based on uncertain premises. He was never anxious to add one more guess on doubtful matters in the hope of hitting the truth, or what might pass as such for a time, but was always ready to take infinite pains in the most careful testing of every theory. With these qualities was united a modesty which forbade the pushing of his own claims and desired no reputation except the unsought tribute of competent judges.

  4. #34
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Backroom Errata

    Communism is the best form of government. Apart from the fact it doesn't work.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
    Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
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  5. #35

    Default Re: Backroom Errata

    Socialist argument against gun control

    https://socialistaction.org/2018/02/...ew-the-issues/

    TLDR: Democratic militias, like in Shays' Rebellion or European peasant revolts, are the ideal, authoritarian state polices and professional militaries are teh sux

    One also recalls the conservative furor some time ago over a black philosophy professor musing on black political philosophy:

    White conservatives speak reverently of gun rights, said Curry. “But when we turn the conversation back and say, ‘Does the black community ever need to own guns? Does the black community have a need to protect itself? Does the black individual have a need to protect himself from police officers?’, we don’t have that conversation at all.”
    But without getting into further arguments here on the abstract or practical merits and demerits of authority and democracy and gun diffusion, the role of class struggle, and so forth, a quote from the first article attributed to Fidel Castro strikes me for several reasons...

    In a Jan. 4, 1990, speech, Fidel Castro stated: “To some of the Western countries that question democracy in Cuba, we can say: There can be no democracy superior to that where the workers, the peasants, and the students have the weapons. They have the weapons. To all those from countries that question democracy in Cuba we can say: Give weapons to the workers, give weapons to the peasants, give weapons to the students, and we’ll see whether tear gas will be hurled against workers on strike, against an organization that struggles for peace, against the students….
    Vitiate Man.

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  6. #36
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Backroom Errata

    That's some weird stuff.

    Not only does the Castro thing appear quite wrong given the US have more guns than people and Cuba:
    http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/cuba

    The estimated rate of private gun ownership (both licit and illicit) per 100 people in Cuba is 2.0
    It's also that if guns are such a great way to solve problems in society, why don't you go live in Afghanistan or Somalia, mister whoever thinks that?


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  7. #37
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, Cub Shoot 2 Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Treasure Diver Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Slack Man Champion, Japanese Baseball Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Super Mario Mushroom Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Fish Kill Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, KF 9000 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Backroom Errata

    Interesting post.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken

  8. #38

    Default Re: Backroom Errata

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    That's some weird stuff.

    Not only does the Castro thing appear quite wrong given the US have more guns than people and Cuba:
    http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/cuba



    It's also that if guns are such a great way to solve problems in society, why don't you go live in Afghanistan or Somalia, mister whoever thinks that?
    We could lay this out systematically in each permutation according to parameters, for example:

    1. Success to failure of Cuban society (how successful and livable is Cuban society?)
    2. Democratic to undemocratic governance (what are the mechanisms of control and governance; how responsive is governance to popular will and needs?)
    3. High to low penetration and diffusion of firearms in population and demographic groups (how many guns, where, what kinds?; e.g. are most guns owned by Party elites?)
    4. Contemporary or in other periods of history (was ownership very different in one year or decade compared to another?)

    But that's too time-consuming, so I would like to point out that basically Castro presented a kind of misleading or deceptive description if you're uncharitable, or if charitable a description that is liable to be misunderstood from non-Marxist perspectives.

    Here's the original speech (it was given in 1989, not 1990).

    There is something else that is associated with this: I feel that our
    concept of defense is unique and that our country has developed in a unique
    way, with the total participation of the masses. Do any other countries
    have anything like this? I do not deny it--there are other countries. We,
    however, believe that we have the right concept, our way of organizing the
    defense system with the participation of all the people--workers, students,
    men, and women. Millions of people take an active part in our defense
    system. There are some capitalist countries that question democracy in
    Cuba. There can be no democracy better than a democracy where the workers,
    the peasants, the students hold the arms. [applause]

    To all the Western countries that question democracy in Cuba, I say: Go
    ahead and give the arms to the workers, to the peasants, to the students,
    and let us see if you can start hurling tear gas canisters to put down a
    strike, or at any organization that struggles for peace [applause], or at
    students. We would see if these countries could send out the police,
    covered with shields and all that equipment that makes them look like
    astronauts. We would see if these countries could attack the masses with
    dogs every time there is a strike or a peaceful demonstration or a people's
    struggle. I think the litmus test for democracy is to arm the people.
    [applause]

    When defense becomes the task of the people and arms become the prerogative
    of all the people, then there is democracy.
    Meanwhile, there are
    specialized police teams and armies to put down the people when the people
    show discontent over the abuses and injustice of a bourgeois system. It is
    the same in a Third World country as in a developed capitalist country. We
    see this constantly on television newscasts from the United States and
    Europe--Europe brags so much about their democratic systems. We see how
    the people are run down by specialists in repression and brutality,
    something that has never ever been seen in our country in the 30 years of
    our revolution. These are not the typical characteristics of our
    revolution.
    And the Constitution of Cuba:

    Quote Originally Posted by Article 3
    In the Republic of Cuba sovereignty lies in the people, from whom originates all the power of the state. That power is exercised directly or through the assemblies of People’s Power and other state bodies which derive their authority from these assemblies, in the form and according to the norms established in the Constitution and by law.
    When no other recourse is possible, all citizens have the right to struggle through all means, including armed struggle, against anyone who tries to overthrow the political, social and economic order established in this Constitution.
    In other words, there is a collective class (as opposed to human or constitutional) right to organize for defense of the Revolution, which does not have to do with guns per se. And it's not clear where the guns are coming from anyway - state arsenals?

    No supporting details, but from my recollection of the excellent Che Guevara biography by Jon Lee Anderson - the whole middle of which is less a biography and more a detailed military and political history of the Cuban Revolution - in the years between seizing power and the Missile Crisis, Castro did indeed dole out guns to pretty much every peasant in the form of popular militias. The idea was the resist the impending American invasion, so it would make sense to turn the country into an armed camp.

    Presumably there have been changes between 1963 and 2018, but I don't know the details and they probably aren't that important. The point is just that Castro was maintaining the distinction between popular self-defense and specialized volunteer forces of repression. Private gun ownership doesn't actually enter into the conversation for either party. But railing against professional militaries is misleading too, since as you might know the Cuban Army and its expeditionary forces was one of the most powerful and accomplished forces in the Western hemisphere (and beyond) during the Cold War. Calling it a people's organization in its actual capacity to achieve military aims is then nothing more than a pretty sophistry.

    So it's hard to take seriously vis-a-vis guns and armaments, since if the distribution of arms is managed by the government and bureaucracy, then even from the pro-gun Marxist perspective the people would not be in a position to defend the Revolution if the government happened to betray the Revolution (i.e. Raul Castro becomes a crony of Washington).


    And also from Anderson's biography, during the revolution ~1958 in the Sierra Maestra mountains, Castro's partisans primarily armed themselves by raiding Battista's forces and depots (i.e. the arms held by the oppressive state), more like a Leninist "vanguard" than Shays' Rebellion (who were petit bourgeois landowners themselves anyway). So maybe if you expect the people to get their arms by taking them from the state by force, this line from the same 1989 speech makes more sense:

    If the majority of people were counterrevolutionaries, they would only need
    to nominate other counterrevolutionaries and most of the representatives
    would then be counterrevolutionaries and would go against the revolution
    and socialism.
    Yet this still has nothing to do with individual or private ownership before the fact of contestation.

    Marx seemed to recognize the distinction that Castro is muddying: guns are nothing more than a tool to resist 'tyranny', and should be retained not as a legal right but as a practical matter.

    To be able forcefully and threateningly to oppose this party, whose betrayal of the workers will begin with the very first hour of victory, the workers must be armed and organized. The whole proletariat must be armed at once with muskets, rifles, cannon and ammunition, and the revival of the old-style citizens’ militia, directed against the workers, must be opposed[...] Under no pretext should arms and ammunition be surrendered; any attempt to disarm the workers must be frustrated, by force if necessary.
    Ultimately though, I would ask this question: since when in history does an armed rebellion, vanguard or otherwise, produce better results than nonviolent popular resistance? Prior to revolt, when does mere brandishing or possession of guns actually deter and defend against police and soldiers (rather than the opposite)? The history of fascist genocide, dovetailing with something I said in another thread, seems to indicate that the most salutary (or least bad) violence is indeed state-organized mass violence (in combatting other forms of state mass violence). Without some other substance, low-level armed violence seems invariably to lead to warlordism or despotism, because the immediate defining social relation becomes power and coercion, soon cascading and concentrating. Marxists are wrong if they think they can get anywhere with mass gun ownership.


    EDIT: Also, pointing out something that's relevant in every sphere: a law is nothing but a fiction without its enforcement. So if the enforcement is the critical part, then whether oppressive capitalist or communist governments technically permit (or refuse to restrict) individual ownership, for individual or collective purposes regardless, it still means nothing if the state retains the means to overwhelm subsets of the population at any given time. Repression is just equivalent to extralegal or laterally-legal enforcement. Ink on paper is irrelevant, and grassroots activism to "awaken" a population to actively provide for collective self-defense at any time is far less likely to succeed (and far more likely to horrify) than just organizing a movement for universal healthcare, demilitarization, welfare, whatever.

    EDIT2: Lol-Yugoslavia
    Last edited by Montmorency; 03-05-2018 at 02:10.
    Vitiate Man.

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  9. #39

    Default Re: Backroom Errata

    Speaking of war criminals - again - seems like Erik Prince of Blackwate/Xe infamy may be being investigated by the Feds for a number of things, including money laundering, tax evasion, smuggling weapons into Iraq to sell for profit, destroying documentation to conceal criminality from the government, murdering whistleblowers, and being a barbaric paleo wingnut:

    To that end, Mr. Prince intentionally deployed to Iraq certain men who shared his vision of Christian supremacy, knowing and wanting these men to take every available opportunity to murder Iraqis. Many of these men used call signs based on the Knights of the Templar, the warriors who fought the Crusades.

    Mr. Prince operated his companies in a manner that encouraged and rewarded the destruction of Iraqi life. For example, Mr. Prince’s executives would openly speak about going over to Iraq to “lay Hajiis out on cardboard.” Going to Iraq to shoot and kill Iraqis was viewed as a sport or game. Mr. Prince’s employees openly and consistently used racist and derogatory terms for Iraqis and other Arabs, such as “ragheads” or “hajiis.”
    Both individuals allege that Prince and Blackwater deployed individuals to Iraq who, in the words of Doe #1, “were not properly vetted and cleared by the State Department.” Doe #2 adds that “Prince ignored the advice and pleas from certain employees, who sought to stop the unnecessary killing of innocent Iraqis.” Doe #2 further states that some Blackwater officials overseas refused to deploy “unfit men” and sent them back to the US. Among the reasons cited by Doe #2 were “the men making statements about wanting to deploy to Iraq to ‘kill ragheads’ or achieve ‘kills’ or ‘body counts,'” as well as “excessive drinking” and “steroid use.” However, when the men returned to the US, according to Doe #2, “Prince and his executives would send them back to be deployed in Iraq with an express instruction to the concerned employees located overseas that they needed to ‘stop costing the company money.'”

    Doe #2 also says Prince “repeatedly ignored the assessments done by mental health professionals, and instead terminated those mental health professionals who were not willing to endorse deployments of unfit men.” He says Prince and then-company president Gary Jackson “hid from Department of State the fact that they were deploying men to Iraq over the objections of mental health professionals and security professionals in the field,” saying they “knew the men being deployed were not suitable candidates for carrying lethal weaponry, but did not care because deployments meant more money.”

    Doe #1 states that “Blackwater knew that certain of its personnel intentionally used excessive and unjustified deadly force, and in some instances used unauthorized weapons, to kill or seriously injure innocent Iraqi civilians.” He concludes, “Blackwater did nothing to stop this misconduct.” Doe #1 states that he “personally observed multiple incidents of Blackwater personnel intentionally using unnecessary, excessive and unjustified deadly force.” He then cites several specific examples of Blackwater personnel firing at civilians, killing or “seriously” wounding them, and then failing to report the incidents to the State Department.
    Doe #2 expands on the issue of unconventional weapons, alleging Prince “made available to his employees in Iraq various weapons not authorized by the United States contracting authorities, such as hand grenades and hand grenade launchers. Mr. Prince’s employees repeatedly used this illegal weaponry in Iraq, unnecessarily killing scores of innocent Iraqis.” Specifically, he alleges that Prince “obtained illegal ammunition from an American company called LeMas. This company sold ammunition designed to explode after penetrating within the human body. Mr. Prince’s employees repeatedly used this illegal ammunition in Iraq to inflict maximum damage on Iraqis.”
    On the side, he probably definitely committed perjury before the House Intelligence Committee the past December.
    @spmetla
    Last edited by Montmorency; 03-10-2018 at 05:50.
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  10. #40
    Shadow Senior Member Kagemusha's Avatar
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    Default Re: Backroom Errata

    This is what starts to happen when you deploy mercenaries. Outsourcing is not the best idea in every scenario.
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  11. #41

    Default Re: Backroom Errata

    Unfortunately I messed up. I got to this article from the "Most Popular" feed on The Nation website. But the article is from 2009. That's what I get for not reading bylines.

    So that's embarrassing. Weird thing is, it's all over the news for August 2009, but I can't find any follow ups besides investigations for white-collar crimes and an out-of-court settlement with the government for other cases of arms smuggling.

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  12. #42
    Shadow Senior Member Kagemusha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    Unfortunately I messed up. I got to this article from the "Most Popular" feed on The Nation website. But the article is from 2009. That's what I get for not reading bylines.

    So that's embarrassing. Weird thing is, it's all over the news for August 2009, but I can't find any follow ups besides investigations for white-collar crimes and an out-of-court settlement with the government for other cases of arms smuggling.

    Apparently the firm in question is called these days " Constellis". It was called "Academi" before that.
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  13. #43
    Coffee farmer extraordinaire Member spmetla's Avatar
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    Default Re: Backroom Errata

    I'll be happy to see Erik Prince under the microscope, his "Black Water" tactics in Iraq generated plenty of extra ill will that we didn't need. I thought it a sham that he's been allowed to just repeatedly re-brand himself these past few years. With his political views and history of excesses by his organization I'd very much like to keep him as far from the US political process as possible.

    "Am I not destroying my enemies when I make friends of them?"
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  14. #44
    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: Backroom Errata

    Erik Prince and Chris Kyle are cut from the same "Christian warrior" cloth. One day I hope someone will put some research into this phenomenon of white men who were able to convince themselves they were tip of the Christians Gods spear.
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

    My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.

    I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.

  15. #45
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, Cub Shoot 2 Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Treasure Diver Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Slack Man Champion, Japanese Baseball Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Super Mario Mushroom Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Fish Kill Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, KF 9000 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Backroom Errata

    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    Erik Prince and Chris Kyle are cut from the same "Christian warrior" cloth. One day I hope someone will put some research into this phenomenon of white men who were able to convince themselves they were tip of the Christians Gods spear.
    Any number of those who answered the Holy Father's call to crusade to the Holy Land were equally sincere (though admittedly most of their leadership was NOT)
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

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  16. #46
    Ni dieu ni maître! Senior Member a completely inoffensive name's Avatar
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    Default Re: Backroom Errata

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    Unfortunately I messed up. I got to this article from the "Most Popular" feed on The Nation website. But the article is from 2009. That's what I get for not reading bylines.

    So that's embarrassing. Weird thing is, it's all over the news for August 2009, but I can't find any follow ups besides investigations for white-collar crimes and an out-of-court settlement with the government for other cases of arms smuggling.

    Shame on you for raising awareness of an issue flying under the radar.
    In all these papers we see a love of honest work, an aversion to shams, a caution in the enunciation of conclusions, a distrust of rash generalizations and speculations based on uncertain premises. He was never anxious to add one more guess on doubtful matters in the hope of hitting the truth, or what might pass as such for a time, but was always ready to take infinite pains in the most careful testing of every theory. With these qualities was united a modesty which forbade the pushing of his own claims and desired no reputation except the unsought tribute of competent judges.

  17. #47

    Default Re: Backroom Errata

    Speaking of war crimes - again, again - a week ago was the 50th anniversary of the My Lai massacre.

    Worst America - Best America.

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    In the early morning of March 16, 1968, Thompson's OH-23 encountered no enemy fire over My Lai
    4. Spotting two possible Viet Cong suspects, he forced the Vietnamese men to surrender and flew
    them off for a tactical interrogation. Thompson also marked the location of several wounded
    Vietnamese with green smoke, a signal that they needed help.

    Returning to the My Lai area at around 0900 after refueling, he noticed that the people he had
    marked were now dead. Out in a paddy field beside a dike 200 metres (660 ft) south of the village,
    he marked the location of a wounded young Vietnamese woman. Thompson and his crew watched
    from a low hover as Captain Ernest Medina (commanding officer of C Company, 1st Battalion, 20th
    Infantry Regiment) came up to the woman, prodded her with his foot, and then shot and killed her.
    Thompson then flew over an irrigation ditch filled with dozens of bodies. Shocked at the sight, he
    radioed his accompanying gunships, knowing his transmission would be monitored by many on the
    radio net: "It looks to me like there's an awful lot of unnecessary killing going on down there.
    Something ain't right about this. There's bodies everywhere. There's a ditch full of bodies that we
    saw. There's something wrong here."]

    Movement from the ditch indicated to Thompson that there were still people alive in there. Thompson
    landed his helicopter and dismounted. David Mitchell, a sergeant and squad leader in 1st Platoon, C
    Company, walked over to him. When asked by Thompson whether any help could be provided to the
    people in the ditch, the sergeant replied that the only way to help them was to put them out of their
    misery. Second Lieutenant William Calley (commanding officer of the 1st Platoon, C Company) then
    came up, and the two had the following conversation:

    Thompson: What's going on here, Lieutenant?
    Calley: This is my business.
    Thompson: What is this? Who are these people?
    Calley: Just following orders.
    Thompson: Orders? W hose orders?
    Calley: Just following...
    Thompson: But, these are human beings, unarmed civilians, sir.
    Calley: Look Thompson, this is my show. I'm in charge here. It ain't your concern.
    Thompson: Yeah, great job.
    Calley: You better get back in that chopper and mind your own business.
    Thompson: You ain't heard the last of this!

    Thompson took off again, and Andreotta reported that Mitchell was now executing the people in the
    ditch. Furious, Thompson flew over the northeast corner of the village and spotted a group of about
    ten civilians, including children, running toward a homemade bomb shelter. Pursuing them were
    soldiers from the 2nd Platoon, C Company. Realizing that the soldiers intended to murder the
    Vietnamese, T hompson landed his aircraft between them and the villagers. T hompson turned to
    Colburn and Andreotta and told them that if the Americans began shooting at the villagers or him,
    they should fire their M60 machine guns at the Americans: "Y'all cover me! If these bastards open
    up on me or these people, you open up on them. Promise me!" He then dismounted to confront the
    2nd Platoon's leader, Stephen Brooks. Thompson told him he wanted help getting the peasants out
    of the bunker.

    Thompson: Hey listen, hold your fire. I'm going to try to get these people out of this bunker.
    Just hold your men here.
    Brooks: Yeah, we can help you get 'em out of that bunker—with a hand grenade!
    Thompson: Just hold your men here. I think I can do better than that.

    Brooks declined to argue with him, even though as a commissioned officer he outranked Thompson.
    After coaxing the 11 Vietnamese out of the bunker, Thompson persuaded the pilots of the two UH-1
    Huey gunships (Dan Millians and Brian Livingstone) flying as his escort to evacuate them. While
    Thompson was returning to base to refuel, Andreotta spotted movement in an irrigation ditch filled
    with approximately 100 bodies. The helicopter again landed and the men dismounted to search for
    survivors. After wading through the remains of the dead and dying men, women and children,
    Andreotta extracted a live boy named Do Ba. Thompson flew the survivor to the ARVN hospital in
    Quang Ngai.

    Upon returning to their base at about 1100, Thompson heatedly reported the massacre to his
    superiors. His allegations of civilian killings quickly reached Lieutenant Colonel Frank Barker, the
    operation's overall commander. Barker radioed his executive officer to find out from Captain Medina
    what was happening on the ground. Medina then gave the cease-fire order to Charlie Company to
    "knock off the killing".

    After the massacre

    Thompson made an official report of the killings, and was interviewed by Colonel Oran Henderson,
    the commander of the 11th Infantry Brigade (the parent organization of the 20th Infantry).
    Concerned, senior American officers cancelled similar planned operations by Task Force Barker
    against other villages (My Lai 5, My Lai 1, etc.) in Quang Ngai Province, possibly preventing the
    additional massacre of hundreds, if not thousands, of Vietnamese civilians.

    Initially, commanders throughout the American chain of command were successful in covering up the
    My Lai Massacre. Thompson quickly received the Distinguished Flying Cross for his actions at My
    Lai. The citation for the award fabricated events, for example praising Thompson for taking to a
    hospital a Vietnamese child "caught in intense crossfire". It also stated that his "sound judgment had
    greatly enhanced Vietnamese–American relations in the operational area. " Thompson threw away
    the citation.

    Thompson continued to fly the observation missions in the OH-23 Raven and was hit by enemy fire a
    total of eight times. In four of those instances, his aircraft was lost. In the last incident, his helicopter
    was brought down by enemy machine gun fire, and he broke his back in the resulting crash landing.
    This ended his combat career in Vietnam, and he was evacuated to a hospital in Japan and began a
    long period of rehabilitation. He carried psychological scars from his service in Vietnam for the rest of
    his life.

    When news of the massacre publicly broke, Thompson repeated his account to then-Colonel William
    Wilson and during their official Pentagon investigations. In late 1969, Thompson was summoned to
    Washington DC and appeared before a special closed hearing of the House Armed Services
    Committee.

    There, he was sharply criticized by Congressmen, in particular Chairman Mendel Rivers (D-S.C.),
    who were anxious to play down allegations of a massacre by American troops. Rivers publicly stated
    that he felt Thompson was the only soldier at My Lai who should be punished (for turning his
    weapons on fellow American troops) and unsuccessfully attempted to have him court-martialed. As
    word of his actions became publicly known, Thompson started receiving hate mail, death threats and
    mutilated animals on his doorstep.

    After his Vietnam service, Thompson was assigned to Fort Rucker to become an instructor pilot. His
    other military assignments included, Korea, Fort Ord, Fort Hood, and bases in Hawaii. He retired from
    the Army with the rank of Major in 1983.


    There must have been other men like this in history - they just probably tended to get shot.
    Last edited by Montmorency; 03-25-2018 at 02:37.
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  18. #48
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Backroom Errata

    War is hell. Most put their survival above everything else. Those that don't will probably get killed by the first lot. For almost the entirety of human existence what happened was never known to the masses - and frankly most wouldn't really have cared what happened to the "enemies".

    A long way away, diplomats and lawyers sit in a cozy room and make up rules. But strangely the "weaker" side in any conflict play to win not to the rules.

    Frankly the armed forces should either not be sent in - with "paramilitaries" used (up-armed police) or the armed forces are sent in to make the place "safe". In many cases this means everyone has been interned in a POW camp or killed - since the area is a battlefield.

    The former has many issues but the police are probably better able to act as a police force whereas the armed forces aren't. Most probably don't even have the mental architecture to do so - the world has friendlies and enemies and the latter are to be eliminated. To send in the armed forces isn't pretty. And lots of bystanders will die.

    Whatever the politicians do, the soldiers are trained and accept the risks of being shot in the front by their enemies. They shouldn't have to deal with being stabbed in the back by their supposed countrymen.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
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  19. #49
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, Cub Shoot 2 Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Treasure Diver Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Slack Man Champion, Japanese Baseball Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Super Mario Mushroom Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Fish Kill Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, KF 9000 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Backroom Errata

    I've always felt the most sympathy for the villagers.

    They were in the middle and under threat from all.

    Were they manufacturing booby traps and assisting the VC? Very likely. Did they have a lot of choice? Not really, the VC was always willing to shoot those who collaborated or who did not support their efforts.

    And then the people on the receiving end of the booby traps. Relatively weakly led, endlessly frustrated by taking so many casualties to an "invisible" enemy, were primed to take vengeance and to do so in an unthinking manner.

    And the villagers of My Lai were simply in the cross hairs.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken

  20. #50

    Default Re: Backroom Errata

    You two are too quick to impersonalize these events. Modern soldiers are not barbarians. A doctrine from on high that tolerates and promotes the "killing of anything that moves" must play a large role in conduct on the front line. Whole units don't commit war crimes on autonomous whim.

    But as Thompson demonstrates, it's on the men and women behind the gun to know right from wrong*, then the officers, then the politicians.

    Since leadership can mitigate - or inflame - atrocities, "war is hell" is the wrong attitude. Better to say 'If you make war hell, we'll make it hell for you'.

    *Carrying a copy of the Geneva Convention doesn't cover your ass.
    Last edited by Montmorency; 03-27-2018 at 17:50.
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  21. #51
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, Cub Shoot 2 Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Treasure Diver Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Slack Man Champion, Japanese Baseball Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Super Mario Mushroom Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Fish Kill Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, KF 9000 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Backroom Errata

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    You two are too quick to impersonalize these events. Modern soldiers are not barbarians. A doctrine from on high that tolerates and promotes the "killing of anything that moves" must play a large role in conduct on the front line. Whole units don't commit war crimes on autonomous whim.

    But as Thompson demonstrates, it's on the men and women behind the gun to know right from wrong*, then the officers, then the politicians.

    Since leadership can mitigate - or inflame - atrocities, "war is hell" is the wrong attitude. Better to say 'If you make war hell, we'll make it hell for you'.

    *Carrying a copy of the Geneva Convention doesn't cover your ass.
    That is a poor characterization of what I said. I was commenting that the poor villagers were caught in the middle with little or no choice except to get hurt. The VC strategy worked like a charm, having exactly the effect they sought to evoke. They consistently drove US forces to distraction creating a degree of wastage in personnel and material that was silly -- and even their tactical defeats tended to redound to their strategic success.

    And Army leadership, throughout much of the war, screwed up by the numbers playing the fool for NVA/VC strategy. And yes, free fire zones and the like are symptomatic of American military leadership thinking with its frustration rather than thinking objectively and strategically.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

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  22. #52

    Default Re: Backroom Errata

    Ugh

    UGH

    I just got through reading 10K words on why modern civilization should be demolished and the rightful King Francis II (aka Mr. Franz Bonaventura Adalbert Maria von Wittelsbach) of the ancient Stuart lineage be restored to the English crown and all its proper dominions, including the Lost Colonies (the Bonnie Prince Charles III did not recognize the Treaty of Paris), because only the firm, unifying hand of the Divine hereditary monarch's station can be relied upon to with utmost vitality and conscience prosecute the defense of Law, Land, Church, and Nation.

    Palate cleanser:

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    Last edited by Montmorency; 03-28-2018 at 23:42.
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  23. #53
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, Cub Shoot 2 Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Treasure Diver Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Slack Man Champion, Japanese Baseball Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Super Mario Mushroom Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Fish Kill Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, KF 9000 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Backroom Errata

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    Ugh

    UGH

    I just got through reading 10K words on why modern civilization should be demolished and the rightful King Francis II (aka Mr. Franz Bonaventura Adalbert Maria von Wittelsbach) of the ancient Stuart lineage be restored to the English crown and all its proper dominions, including the Lost Colonies (the Bonnie Prince Charles III did not recognize the Treaty of Paris), because only the firm, unifying hand of the Divine hereditary monarch's station can be relied upon to with utmost vitality and conscience prosecute the defense of Law, Land, Church, and Nation.

    Palate cleanser:

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    You and I are in agreement as to the leadership qualities derived as a consequence of being expelled from the correct vagina.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken

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  24. #54
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Backroom Errata

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post

    the rightful King Francis II (aka Mr. Franz Bonaventura Adalbert Maria von Wittelsbach) of the ancient Stuart lineage be restored to the English crown and all its proper dominions,
    Was there ever Francis I?
    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
    The article exists for a reason yes, I did not write it...

  25. #55
    Member Member Crandar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    Was there ever Francis I?
    Of course, the duke of Modena.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_V,_Duke_of_Modena

  26. #56
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crandar View Post
    Montmorency wrote:

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post

    the rightful King Francis II (aka Mr. Franz Bonaventura Adalbert Maria von Wittelsbach) of the ancient Stuart lineage be restored to the English crown and all its proper dominions
    which I read as "there is a deposed king of England named Francis II who is likely to get his crown back", not Duke or Count or otherwise. That is why, if there is the Second of his name (as a king of England), I would like to know when there was the First of his name.
    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
    The article exists for a reason yes, I did not write it...

  27. #57
    Member Member Crandar's Avatar
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    And as I told you, it's Francis V of Modena and Francis I of the United Kingdom, according to the Jacobites. Don't limit yourself to the title, read the rest of the article as well.
    Quote Originally Posted by 4th paragraph
    After the death of his mother in 1840, Francis was considered the legitimate heir to the thrones of England, Scotland and Ireland by Jacobites as Francis I. At his death his niece Maria Theresia of Austria-Este became Jacobite claimant.

  28. #58
    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: Backroom Errata

    Thompson was very lucky he was a pilot
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

    My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.

    I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.

  29. #59

    Default Re: Backroom Errata

    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    Thompson was very lucky he was a pilot
    Not really. Afterwards they sent him on suicide missions, which got him shot down multiple times, culminating in a severe back injury and the end of his active service.
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  30. #60
    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    Not really. Afterwards they sent him on suicide missions, which got him shot down multiple times, culminating in a severe back injury and the end of his active service.
    Better than him being simply shot.
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

    My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.

    I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.

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