Chess - Game Thread [Concluded]

[Zack]

Gaaah, I couldn't help myself and was sneaking peeks at the thread on my phone. Found somewhere to sit down and pull out my laptop because I really want to say something.

re: why dp is town

No, it's not because "he's awkward as town and is being awkward here." I don't think that's necessarily true, anyways, but that's another discussion.

I recently hosted a game, a week or two ago, where DP was a wolf. I read his posts in the game, I read his posts in wolfchat. There are two specific things that I like from DP so far, and one vague thing.

1. He knows that I noticed how much he started randomly commenting on things as "spicy" in that game, and thought it was something people in the game should have been noticing in the game as being off. So, DP rands wolf here, and probably keeps that in mind as something to avoid, especially around me. But he did the opposite -- he specifically said it in a few times, tried to bring my attention to it, and wanted to gauge my reaction. That's a town move.

2. Reinoe called him out. Many wolves feel uncomfortable standing their ground and going toe to toe with someone in the thread, and so fall into the trap of being overly conciliatory in an awkward way. As mafia, I'd expect DP to respond to this in some form of "sorry I'm busy with school, I'll try to be better" or whatever. Instead, he basically told Reinoe: eff you, piss off.

3. The vague one. He just, seems town to me.

---

Normally, this wouldn't elicit quite the rustle brush in me as it has here. But, the last time I thought town DP was being town DP and didn't speak loud enough against it, he was mislynched d1 and I was fairly pissed about it. Don't want that to happen again, so I'm planting my flag.

Also, I dislike the way Winston has danced around the DP read. Doesn't seem to actually be digging in for a read there, just throwing out stuff based on how the winds sound -- look at 451/453, he instantly changes from dangling out the w/w read to just saying, I agree with slaan, it's v/v. Then in 456 his explanation of why people are townreading DP reads like he's trying to subtly dismiss it as bad reasoning.

Also on Winston -- he called Kage town for no reason afaict (maybe protecting a partner?), and instead of giving actual reads on me/pizza has maintained a general aura of paranoia in that direction. It seems like what scum winston thinks town Winston would do.

I think reinoe could have sensed DP as someone he could push around and went for the throat. Kicking the puppy, as Renata and I think Monty have described it in the past. The level of being an abrasive, "I do what I want and I'm not nice about it!!!" feels overblown, like it's a performance. No person actually behaves like this unless it's an affectation.

---

I'm keeping my eye on Manass. Like I've said in previous games, her scum meta is exactly this: pop in, not really do much, complain about people not talking to her, then leave. It's not exactly too far out of her town range either, to be fair... In my experience if she's a wolf she will play pretty straightforwardly pro-wolf, and that will probably become clearer after a few days.

Cuth too, blergh. This is my problem with d1, I always think way too many people are being suspicious. For now, DP, Fred, and Slaan are the only people I feel good about saying they're above null. Few people are null or slightly above or below it, maybe. Rest are in the poo pile.

When you said "people", do you mean reinoe and cuth?

@GeneralHankerchief, did you answer the above question?

Also, is there an intentional difference between how you play on here and off-site, MU specifically? You seem more ... enthusiastic there.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Also, is there an intentional difference between how you play on here and off-site, MU specifically? You seem more ... enthusiastic there.

Yeah, there for sure is. It's tough to explain why, kind of just adapting to the environment. I wouldn't say I have a strict meta definition, simply because my meta has roughly the foundation of runny gravy at this point, but I definitely do. Does this change things for you at all w/r/t your read on me?

[Zack]

Yeah, there for sure is. It's tough to explain why, kind of just adapting to the environment. I wouldn't say I have a strict meta definition, simply because my meta has roughly the foundation of runny gravy at this point, but I definitely do. Does this change things for you at all w/r/t your read on me?

Not really.

[Winston Hughes]

Also, I dislike the way Winston has danced around the DP read. Doesn't seem to actually be digging in for a read there, just throwing out stuff based on how the winds sound -- look at 451/453, he instantly changes from dangling out the w/w read to just saying, I agree with slaan, it's v/v. Then in 456 his explanation of why people are townreading DP reads like he's trying to subtly dismiss it as bad reasoning.

I don't think it is bad reasoning. I'm townreading him for that reason myself, as I don't think he could easily simulate that awkward tone so well without risking going too far with it.

As for the w/w bit, I was very clear that it was unlikely.

Also on Winston -- he called Kage town for no reason afaict (maybe protecting a partner?),

I said the same about Manasi, and I stand by it. The read is pure gut, and I was totally clear on that. How you can read it as 'protecting', I have no idea. At best it could be taken as justification for not voting in that direction, and if it ever came to the point where I needed to justify such a decision then it would clearly be completely inadequate for the task.

and instead of giving actual reads on me/pizza has maintained a general aura of paranoia in that direction.

No paranoia here. My first 'serious' suspicions of you (the ones reinoe likes me for) weren't actually serious at all. Not to say they were completely inaccurate, but rather that there wasn't nearly enough there to distinguish from any given town game of yours.

With both you and pizza, my inclination has been to carry on publicly suspecting you for shallow reasons, whilst not making any real effort to actually read you properly.

Why?

If I told you that now, then it would defeat the object.

It seems like what scum winston thinks town Winston would do.

As I alluded to earlier, after the last game, this is going to be a problem for me as town in this and any future games with this crowd.

There's no way to defuse it, so I'm just going to have to try and double my efforts as town to compensate.

[Winston Hughes]

Ah, screw it. The above Zack/GH exchange looks really townie.

The truth is that Zack has been considerably more solving than I've seen from him as scum in the past.

I just wanted to keep him in the firing line because it yields interesting exchanges.

[Kagemusha]

I want to hear more from these people about the initial round:

FOS

6. El Barto
7. Montmorency
9. Cuthillius
13. Choxorn
16. Xiahou

[GeneralHankerchief]

I want to hear more from these people about the initial round:

FOS

6. El Barto
7. Montmorency
9. Cuthillius
13. Choxorn
16. Xiahou

Kage, follow me onto Cuth, his vote on Dp was bad.

[Kagemusha]

So be it. Unvote and Vote: Cuthillius

[Sooh]

Vote count:

Pizza (2): Zack, Csargo

Cuthillius (2): GH, Kagemusha

Zack (2): Montmorency, Reinoe,

Logic (2): Pizza, Winston Hughes

Reinoe (2): Dp101, Fredwood

Kagemusha (1): Logic

Csargo (1): Slaan

Not voting (5): El Barto, Cuthillius, Manasi, Choxorn, Xiahou,

With 17 players there are 9 to hammer.


EOD1:

[Dp101]

Here for a bit. Zack and GH are even more solidly town. I agree that Cuth’s popin was mediocre but I’m not sure that that’s damming, from the sounds of his posts it seems like he wants to prioritise sleep over more mafia. Csargo is underwhelming to an extreme degree this game and I can’t tell why. I do not understand Kage, overall not comfortable really making a read on him.

[Askthepizzaguy]

So be it. Unvote and Vote: Cuthillius

Was town.

Here for a bit. Zack and GH are even more solidly town. I agree that Cuth’s popin was mediocre but I’m not sure that that’s damming, from the sounds of his posts it seems like he wants to prioritise sleep over more mafia. Csargo is underwhelming to an extreme degree this game and I can’t tell why. I do not understand Kage, overall not comfortable really making a read on him.

Dp is not helping Cuth get lynched.

Now that ive used this brave new ISO method for the first time to Cuth. He is smelling like rotten scum to me. Pushing, but not quite pushing, trying to connect a bit, making excuses..Best bet for scum so far.

Kage got manipulated, obviously.

This post was linked in choxorn's 517, do I have this out of order? I might have missed Logic's post.

I haven't played chess since about the time that avatar was made. So, a decade or so? I've never considered myself very good. I'm capable of beating my parents and

i did think dp's been a bit weird and the reaction test was really... stiff and ???

Hmm. Why do you get a feeling that no one else seems to?

Logic's 10-minute take:
DP is town. DP is not teamed with Pizza, or Zack.

Csargo and Pizza are not teamed. One could be a wolf, but I don't think both.

Pizza feels really weird from normal. I can usually understand him a little, but here, he feels like he is playing 9 moves ahead to my 4. Not sure if he's on my team or not. I stand by my "seat of the pants" statement from earlier.

Cuth jumps in with some slight shade at DP. Is he suspicious of DP?

Kage shows up with what looks like a lazy vote on Slaan. Possibly a joke, but I think there's a more than reasonable chance that Kage is mafia.

Reinoe is the current target of DP's ire, and he is voting for me, (full disclosure, that that vote isn't being counted because it isn't bolded)

His vote on me looks like it stems only from Pizza's accusation. Not sure if sheeping, or he has other reasons for voting for me.

[b]Vote: Kagemusha[b/]

Logic also pushed against Cuth.

[Kagemusha]

Kage, follow me onto Cuth, his vote on Dp was bad.

Now that ive used this brave new ISO method for the first time to Cuth. He is smelling like rotten scum to me. Pushing, but not quite pushing, trying to connect a bit, making excuses..Best bet for scum so far.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Now that ive used this brave new ISO method for the first time to Cuth. He is smelling like rotten scum to me. Pushing, but not quite pushing, trying to connect a bit, making excuses..Best bet for scum so far.

Cuth often hangs a piece. Not alignment indicative.

[Cuthillius]

Kage, follow me onto Cuth, his vote on Dp was bad.

my what now

[Cuthillius]

zack's a villager

he has all the things i look for, plus being more open/communicative about said things and his thought process

pizza's very probably a villager as well, from posting/gamestate/way people are reacting to him/his attitude towards the game so far

lines up very nicely with the last several villager games i've played with him in the last >year, and not with his wolf games

so

yee

also i think winston's very villagery but i have no idea why so i'm putting that on hold for now

[Askthepizzaguy]

Kage, follow me onto Cuth, his vote on Dp was bad.

my what now

You know. Did Cuth even vote for dp?

I don't think he did.

Checking.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Kage, follow me onto Cuth, his vote on Dp was bad.

This one too.

GH is like me and knows better than to kill a teammate on D1.

Cuth's town, everyone.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Kage, follow me onto Cuth, his vote on Dp was bad.

Trying to influence the outcome, to cause a lynch Cuth on day one.

So far this looks outstanding for Cuth.

Is there an echo in here? I am pretty sure I said this the last time I looked at Cuth, which is how he got into my town.

[Winston Hughes]

Vote: Logic

Reviewing my reactions, he seems the closest thing to an actual scumread.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Vote: Logic

Reviewing my reactions, he seems the closest thing to an actual scumread.

+10

SOLID

[Askthepizzaguy]

Ah, screw it. The above Zack/GH exchange looks really townie.

The truth is that Zack has been considerably more solving than I've seen from him as scum in the past.

I just wanted to keep him in the firing line because it yields interesting exchanges.

Correct! Inaccurate but playing with white pieces and doing his best, imo.

[Cuthillius]

Gaaah, I couldn't help myself and was sneaking peeks at the thread on my phone. Found somewhere to sit down and pull out my laptop because I really want to say something.

re: why dp is town

No, it's not because "he's awkward as town and is being awkward here." I don't think that's necessarily true, anyways, but that's another discussion.

I recently hosted a game, a week or two ago, where DP was a wolf. I read his posts in the game, I read his posts in wolfchat. There are two specific things that I like from DP so far, and one vague thing.

1. He knows that I noticed how much he started randomly commenting on things as "spicy" in that game, and thought it was something people in the game should have been noticing in the game as being off. So, DP rands wolf here, and probably keeps that in mind as something to avoid, especially around me. But he did the opposite -- he specifically said it in a few times, tried to bring my attention to it, and wanted to gauge my reaction. That's a town move.

2. Reinoe called him out. Many wolves feel uncomfortable standing their ground and going toe to toe with someone in the thread, and so fall into the trap of being overly conciliatory in an awkward way. As mafia, I'd expect DP to respond to this in some form of "sorry I'm busy with school, I'll try to be better" or whatever. Instead, he basically told Reinoe: eff you, piss off.

3. The vague one. He just, seems town to me.

---

Normally, this wouldn't elicit quite the rustle brush in me as it has here. But, the last time I thought town DP was being town DP and didn't speak loud enough against it, he was mislynched d1 and I was fairly pissed about it. Don't want that to happen again, so I'm planting my flag.

Also, I dislike the way Winston has danced around the DP read. Doesn't seem to actually be digging in for a read there, just throwing out stuff based on how the winds sound -- look at 451/453, he instantly changes from dangling out the w/w read to just saying, I agree with slaan, it's v/v. Then in 456 his explanation of why people are townreading DP reads like he's trying to subtly dismiss it as bad reasoning.

Also on Winston -- he called Kage town for no reason afaict (maybe protecting a partner?), and instead of giving actual reads on me/pizza has maintained a general aura of paranoia in that direction. It seems like what scum winston thinks town Winston would do.

I think reinoe could have sensed DP as someone he could push around and went for the throat. Kicking the puppy, as Renata and I think Monty have described it in the past. The level of being an abrasive, "I do what I want and I'm not nice about it!!!" feels overblown, like it's a performance. No person actually behaves like this unless it's an affectation.

yeah ok so

this

this addresses a lot of things i want to address

i slept on my thoughts, but my opinions on this game are still fairly similar to what they were

1. you're... i don't think you've giving him as much credit as ye should?

i got the opposite impression, that he was doing it in a really clunky and... calculated way that was obviously gimmicky

this was making sure someone asked him about it, this wasn't lay a little bait to see if you pick it up

i think dp is the sort of player in whose range it would be to say if i do this it will likely be perceived as lol awkward villagery?

2. i would have agreed with you in the past

but lissa in particular and a few others have reacted in a quite similar way as wolves

i do think it's... not bad at all for him

also i

you know

i'm stopping

wrt point three, i was going to say that i thought his game was ~neutral

but as i talk about it i do feel like

the simpler/more straightforward solution here is that he's just a villager

that said, i think it still overlaps somewhat with his wolf range, and i do have an issue with gh/others? locking him in at this stage of the game, especially given weak reasons of meta tells that dp is certainly aware of and well able to use/manipulate at this point

could well be that there are other unspoken reasons but /shrug

also i thought his "pizza has one tell" post was villagery so

[Montmorency]

Logic is scum and it was that simple, but even in a universe where I'm wrong, I didn't come up with this while being scum myself. Those reasons on Logic are what I really believe and that much should be very clear at this point. I know his meta and he's breaking it, in a scummy way with scummy motivations behind it. Whatever happens next, I should be in everyone's town.

I don't want to look this townie or be this invested in anything this early. Even when I tried to snipe dp as a wolf, I did it passive aggressively. I let it be his own fault that he was getting lynched.

I own the Logic lynch. And I'm sticking my big butt in everyone's faces. This is town pizza.

It's almost 3am, and I have an appointment that's several hours long plus visiting non-english speaking relatives. I can't be awake for a ton more hours and I need my calming down time, so I'm out. You all know where I stand and why, so I did my job this round. I should even be correctly readable now, which is a huge bonus.

OK, but what is his scum meta specifically? In the next day or so.

[snip]

ehh.

also i thought his "pizza has one tell" post was villagery so

As a matter of fact, I don't recall that @Dp101 ever explained what he was referring to.

[Dp101]

As a matter of fact, I don't recall that @Dp101 ever explained what he was referring to.

Oh, I was referring to his consistent early pushing of me when he's scum. I'm pretty happy calling him town now.

[Cuthillius]

dp, gimme a spicy take

[Dp101]

dp, gimme a spicy take

Csargo is town.

[Zack]

Csargo is town.

not a wolf

or town?

I don't care for the push on him either, but that's a S P I C Y leap.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Oh, I was referring to his consistent early pushing of me when he's scum. I'm pretty happy calling him town now.

It might have happened a couple of times, but I don't think that should be a reliable tell. I know when I am scum I do try to deliberately mix it up who I push against, and it's largely based off of who I think I can call scummy based on the game state. It'd be a coincidence if it was the same person in multiple games.

i don't have much of a lean on winston

i've been burned in the past

i'm not going to maintain that as a read unless i actually can come up with some reason

My gut reaction is to town read this post, regardless of where I have everyone else or the game state. It just strikes me as a genuine thought, but I don't know if I can put into words why I think so, and I'd rather go study some Cuth as scum games to get a better read for his latest scum meta. All I can remember offhand is his town game because it's been a while since he was scum against me I think.

Cuth someone I didn't have a strong read on before, so that's my homework assignment for end of round / before start of day 2.

1. GH
2. Csargo
3. Dp101
4. Pizza
5. Fredwood
6. El Barto
7. Montmorency
8. Zack
9. Cuthillius
10. Manasi
11. Slaan
12. Reinoe
13. Choxorn
14. Winston Hughes
15. Logic
16. Xiahou
17. Kagemusha

Any of the bolded people I'd consider suspicious. Probably throw WH in there for paranoia reasons as well, maybe Zack too for tinfoil reasons.

This list isn't making me feel better about Csargo's slot. If you bold WH and Zack, what you have left is still a bunch of folks I've argued are town, and doesn't town read any of my suspects. He doesn't even disagree with my suspects, but he thinks I'd bus them on day 1, which is not my MO at all. I feel like there should be a dichotomy between me and Logic if you suspect either one. Actually with such strong agreement with my leans, I don't think he should be having an issue with my slot at all, which makes me think he's not actually reading my slot for alignment.

Csargo doesn't really care if you scum read him if he's town. I've seen him get wagons on him and not even react. This list just feels like it was written from a non-town perspective for Csargo.

No more or less suspect than before, but it doesn't look right to me. Feels dishonest.

... what? Do you know what my scumrange and townrange are and could you even tell what is in one and not the other? Have you read a scum game from me to make those reads? Sorry but this post feels very bad from my point of view. What do you think is underwhelming about or going in a strange direction? Who do I shade unnecessary? You linked post is me calling out Bart for apparently being Bart and playing like crap (no offence ;)), I think calling him out on it is necessary. And yes my opening is weak, I don't care for the game in RVS and I'm not looking to solve there. I try to get to know the ppl a bit so I can better remember their names going forward... Let me put this differently: Who didnt have a weak opening in the first 2 hours?

This post just feels empty despite there being many words... same as the long post about dp previously... whats up Cuth?

This post reads generically like it could be scum taking advantage of a weak/attackable post by a townie. But all of those questions also feel legitimate and I feel like this could all be normal Slaan.

What I mean another way, is that this is the kind of post I look for motive on, because if Cuth is town, that post was really attackable, and how people attack suspicious posts tells me a lot about their real process. Passive aggression is something I've been noting across games more and more as a fairly reliable generic scumtell, if passive aggression is not in the person's town playbook. Something about being scum causes people to give easier justifications for scumreading people, and they also tend to distance themselves from that suspicion. Not always, not even in the majority of cases, but they do like to make it someone else's fault that they're scum reading them and they also tend to phrase the suspicion like innocent questions or smudges as opposed to "X is a wolf for this post".

This post would fit that pattern in general of Just Asking Questions to smudge Cuthillius. But my gut is telling me to discount that, like the reasons Slaan is doing it would be more like his own personality causing him to react this way to Cuth. The specific questions on townrange/scumrange and the question on who had a strong opening in the first couple hours feel like solving questions Slaan would most likely legitimately have.

So it fits a scummy pattern in the generic sense, but I don't think the tell is reliable in this specific instance. Slaan can be scum, I haven't locked him town, but this post isn't pushing me in that direction, even though it fits stuff I tend to look for.

I don't know Slaan's range, all I remember is that he was a seemingly competent and fun town player in his champs game. That's all I got. My town is pretty full but I still don't think he's doing anything here that would lead to kicking him out, despite the List Of Questions style post.

I'll break this up so it's not a big wall, posting and continuing.

[GeneralHankerchief]

@reinoe

I'm somewhere around here right now:

Zack
Kage
Monty

Dp101
reinoe
Slaan
Logic
Winston
ATPG

---town line---

Csargo
Xiahou
Cuth
Fredwood
El Barto

Choxorn
Manasi

~~~~~~

Zack is obvious town, Kage I already talked about, Monty seems like usual Monty.

The people in the next best slot all are either matching their town meta or are otherwise helping push the gamestate along in a way I consider to be townie.

Xiahou I think might be town just off the two post reads but I'm not arrogant enough to move him up a tier for that. I don't really have a read on Csargo and Cuth is sort of improving for me since I voted him early on in the phase as he gets more engaged, but he's not there yet. Fredwood I need to take another look at now that we've had some distance from our interaction yesterday and how it went down.

Choxorn as town just has... more bite to him. I'm not really seeing that from him here. Compare his some of his posts in Swords and Sorcery, where he was town:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I didn't know there was a lynchproof spell, it wasn't among my options.



I don't like this post at all, it sounds like what a scum would say if they wanted to defend a scumbuddy and go after the one attacking them. What do you mean, would have found something else by now? It's been a few pages, and it's still day 1, there's not much to go on.

Vote: Dp101



Well, only for one hand, he can still get more for his other hand, can't he (oh dear god, please no)

[snip]
At this point I'd say Sooh is probably scum unless she has a really good explanation for what happened night 1 and can show up today and stop acting like a scum with low wim who's resigned to defeat. If not her, lynch Snerk, if not either of them, lynch Csargo.

Vote: Sooh

To posts in Representative Democracy, where he was mafia:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

You missed my district vote for Cuth.



And I thought Pizza's textwalls were bad...

Seriously, make your point more succinctly, or quote some of the posts you're referring to, or something, because this is more or less a bland wall of text, it's hard to see the evidence if you don't quote anything Zack has actually said, and I can't really parse a lot of it to make sense of what your argument is.

And he's just more direct and to the point when he's town. So far the closest note he's hit here is probably this post:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

> Says Pizza is going after low-hanging fruit
> Votes El Barto





Your post is bad and you should feel bad

Even El Barto had more to say than just "I don't like how active the thread is"

Which isn't quite there.

[Slaan]

@reinoe

I'm somewhere around here right now:

Zack
Kage
Monty

Dp101
reinoe
Slaan
Logic
Winston
ATPG

---town line---

Csargo
Xiahou
Cuth
Fredwood
El Barto

Choxorn
Manasi

~~~~~~

Zack is obvious town, Kage I already talked about, Monty seems like usual Monty.

The people in the next best slot all are either matching their town meta or are otherwise helping push the gamestate along in a way I consider to be townie.

Xiahou I think might be town just off the two post reads but I'm not arrogant enough to move him up a tier for that. I don't really have a read on Csargo and Cuth is sort of improving for me since I voted him early on in the phase as he gets more engaged, but he's not there yet. Fredwood I need to take another look at now that we've had some distance from our interaction yesterday and how it went down.

I think the last quoted paragraph (there was a bit more in regards to Chox after that which I removed cuz w/e) has the last wolf in it... and I find the way the referes to all of them kinda scummy lol.
- Xiahou being townread off two posts even though Xiahou voted Zack who GH had as his top towny seems awfully forced
- Csargo.. not having a read on him (even though he had way more posts than Xiahou) and still mention him? He isnt mentioning Barto or Manasi who were also below his town line
- The way the emphazised that he voted on Cuth previously... reminding us that he bussed a mafia there?
- Fredwood... the weakest read of all but couldnt laugh when I read 'distance' here.
- Barto for not being mentioned I guess. But he also didnt mention Manasi or the entire non-top3 townies townpile.