Chess - Game Thread [Concluded]

[Winston Hughes]

If chox isn't scum, reinoe's position on his wagon looks bad.

[reinoe]

reinoe, if I die will you carry my candle and make sure someone isn't forgotten about for me?

I'll let you know who it is by end of night. I just want one good read I'm pretty sure about to not completely vanish.

If you just blatantly disagree with it that's fine, you can decline. There are other ways someone can die even if there's a doc.

I'm flattered. I'll do my best. Shouldn't you select someone who's more familiar with site meta etc though?

[reinoe]

If chox isn't scum, reinoe's position on his wagon looks bad.

How so?

[reinoe]

you have joined ranks with three other individuals

Is this normal? Do players normally get told how many scum are in the game?

[Winston Hughes]

How so?

You joined right when it looked like it might actually beat out the Logic wagon.

This is similar to what made me think chox was bussing: he voted Logic right when I felt sure the wagon was going the distance.

[Askthepizzaguy]

@Askthepizzaguy only, oog

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

OOG

I really really don't like getting your alignment wrong and I'm deeply aware of how much it must suck for me to push on you and also be lock town.

I know if you're scum I have to push you, but that doesn't mean I like it, and I'd really still like to have a good town/town mindmeld game.

I just can't do it based purely of a meta of wanting to do it. I gotta follow my heart as much as it sucks, man.

I regret that we don't mindmeld or rand town together often. I know you've heard me say that before and then push you to death, but in every case, I'm just trying to be true and play the game.

Those things are being considered and it's painful when I feel like I have to ignore them. If this game didn't involve other people who might have a bad time if I'm wrong / push them too hard, I'd be less nervous about my own play.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Pizza, how does the abortive CFD attempt fit into your current worldview? Do you think that it makes GH or Zack more scummy, or that it's NAI, or something else?

Ok I read up.

It is suspicious but not proof. Look to their body of work, motives, determine if either are town, neither are town, or both are town. Look into each instance with a clear head and try to strip your own confirm bias out of your assessment.

Think with a clear head, both have a great day one for analysis purposes. If we are the jedi we claim to be, we can use the force to sense the dark side is or is not present based on what they've given us.

I like to be able to analyze people who give me something, Zack and GH have both played the game, and well imo, did their jobs regardless of whatever team they are on, tried to win for their team regardless of alignment, and deserve a good and fair look.

If we're good, we can now solve them. That should be half the point of being a talker style player.

We have a dead wolf, we have spew, we can look for motive, we can try to find their process if either or both are town. We have the power and they gave it to us.

Yes, both cfd attempts look really bad from both. But they've given us so much we cannot damn them on that alone.

GH often does the cfd. He can do it as both alignments. Zack has done them as well. Sometimes they are pro-town.

Look for other reasons and other clues. Were they doing it to fight for town? Look at everything else they've done to determine that.

I give snap reads and change my mind on a dime but those are reads. A real process still must take place when we have the space to do that process. Now's a good time.

[Choxorn]

If chox isn't scum, reinoe's position on his wagon looks bad.

This post also looks bad:

A 1x Strongman? The scumteam would bus the crap out of that.

Scum Reinoe would for sure say this to try to direct attention at the Logic wagon if there wasn't any bussing.

If there is bussing, OTOH, I'd say it's Csargo and/or Slaan. Winston looks townie af to me, and I also lean town on Kagemusha and Pizza.

Wolfy pop-in by El Barto

How so?

[Askthepizzaguy]

I'm flattered. I'll do my best. Shouldn't you select someone who's more familiar with site meta etc though?

Let the meta knowledge people solve by meta.

I often go to other forums and read people better because I don't have the meta, I have generic meta and I see something is scummy and others can write it off because they always do something similar, and miss the forest for the trees. Similar is not the same. Don't let scummy things happen just because they match a person's meta in a similar sense.

You won't be bogged down by such biases, you should be able to be more objective.

Plus, in spite of some folks pushing you, I feel like I got your alignment right and quickly based on your posts and vote movements, targets, and arguments. I think I let a scum into my town and I don't think it's you, so this is where I'm putting it. Plus Winston is in danger and is a decent alternative doc target tonight imo and they can't cover both.

[Winston Hughes]

Well I think this is the towniest he’s ever been in any game I’ve played with him. I haven’t gone through and checked in what ways it is different, but just because someone’s different doesn’t make them scum.

With apologies to Dp101, this post really dialed up my suspicions of Zack.

The meld with pizza was at its strongest at that moment, and the difference between our models of Zack's mind and the one Dp was using felt significant.

As pizza (iirc) said early in the game, Dp has all the potential in the world (champs wildcard less than a year after first contact says a lot), but his mental models of scumplay are still a little shallow.

And when it comes to Zack, who is the best scumbag I've ever had the privilege of playing with or against, it's really only in the contrast between layers that any kind of tell is likely to show.

If he is scum here, though, then he's exploring new levels of sophistication. That I think it's possible at all shows just how highly I rate him.

[Dp101]

With apologies to Dp101, this post really dialed up my suspicions of Zack.

The meld with pizza was at its strongest at that moment, and the difference between our models of Zack's mind and the one Dp was using felt significant.

As pizza (iirc) said early in the game, Dp has all the potential in the world (champs wildcard less than a year after first contact says a lot), but his mental models of scumplay are still a little shallow.

And when it comes to Zack, who is the best scumbag I've ever had the privilege of playing with or against, it's really only in the contrast between layers that any kind of tell is likely to show.

If he is scum here, though, then he's exploring new levels of sophistication. That I think it's possible at all shows just how highly I rate him.

I feel victimised right here ;-;

[Zack]

@Askthepizzaguy only, oog

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I've looked back at that game some

I remembered wrong

You were pretty damn fair to me, even while visor was losing his mind wanting you to go after me harder

I just reached the part where you fake-claimed masons with a wolf, and made a huge push for me because "information" and "Zack's suggestions have been bad for town" (when I was defending villagers and pushing wolves).

[Winston Hughes]

I feel victimised right here ;-;

[Askthepizzaguy]

I feel victimised right here ;-;

You're beloved, keep playing with us.

Sith Lords are really good at looking like your best friend until they drop the mask, whip out the red saber, and turn up the force lightning.

If you're getting the sensation that this is happening to you this game, I think it's really possible.

Some people are really good at crawling inside your town spot. Keep that saber up to defend yourself. That's more important than finding scums, is just keeping them away from your inner circle of trust and sneaking past you.

Find townies but be right on those, that's important. Always re-assess, they're playing to get inside your town. And you'd be amazed at how townie some people can look to do it.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I just reached the part where you fake-claimed masons with a wolf, and made a huge push for me because "information" and "Zack's suggestions have been bad for town" (when I was defending villagers and pushing wolves).

I have bad games. Only for the grace of being an actual mason was I worth anything that game, iirc.

[Montmorency]

This post also looks bad:



Scum Reinoe would for sure say this to try to direct attention at the Logic wagon if there wasn't any bussing.

If there is bussing, OTOH, I'd say it's Csargo and/or Slaan. Winston looks townie af to me, and I also lean town on Kagemusha and Pizza.



How so?

Quick note: Choxorn and reinoe probably not partners.

If both wagons are scum, then the distinctive scenarios are 1 choxorn voter and 1 logic voter, 1 wagon-voter and 1 low-post/off-wagon, or 2 low-post/off-wagon. I'll flesh that out later.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I think I need calm down time and then sleepy time before I can do more heavy lifting.

I might still be around because obsessive but don't expect me in real time or interaction and this might be my last post of the night.

[reinoe]

You joined right when it looked like it might actually beat out the Logic wagon.

This is similar to what made me think chox was bussing: he voted Logic right when I felt sure the wagon was going the distance.

OK COOL. But Chox is likely scum so I'm not worried about it.

[reinoe]

Let the meta knowledge people solve by meta.

I often go to other forums and read people better because I don't have the meta, I have generic meta and I see something is scummy and others can write it off because they always do something similar, and miss the forest for the trees. Similar is not the same. Don't let scummy things happen just because they match a person's meta in a similar sense.

You won't be bogged down by such biases, you should be able to be more objective.

Plus, in spite of some folks pushing you, I feel like I got your alignment right and quickly based on your posts and vote movements, targets, and arguments. I think I let a scum into my town and I don't think it's you, so this is where I'm putting it. Plus Winston is in danger and is a decent alternative doc target tonight imo and they can't cover both.

OK makes sense.

[reinoe]

How so?

Because El Barto went AFK and then pops up two minutes after the lynch. The timing makes it seem like he was around but didn't want his presence to be known.

[Slaan]

Btw in case anyone is still having reservations: pizza is town 100%. Not only due to his read+flip, but his last posts are 100% the post villiager that's hyped that his read panned out :)

[Fredwood]

Nice Work, sorry I missed EOD was asleep, with work weekends are rough. I can put Pizza with Slaan in the town pile. I'll put Winston there for now as well.

Reinoe took a long time to have a reaction to my vote parking on him. Even though I said as much, they were never in danger of a lynch, and had been chill with it to that point, I had moved off some of the suss by that point. Was a strange reaction.

Bart would be priority I think, GH, DP, and Zack had interesting EoD's as well. It feels too clunky for GH as a wolf, but that's the same feeling a have for a lot of his day 1, it was a lot of clunk, I have to admit I'm twisting in the wind a bit on developing a read on him.

[El Barto]

If chox isn't scum, reinoe's position on his wagon looks bad.

How so?

You joined right when it looked like it might actually beat out the Logic wagon.

This is similar to what made me think chox was bussing: he voted Logic right when I felt sure the wagon was going the distance.

See post #1337 (naturally, made by yours truly). But reinoe thinks I'm a bit scummy

Wolfy pop-in by El Barto

for attempting a bit of mafia-hunting in my own particularly flavourful way.

[Cuthillius]

so we're sheeping pizza right

still think zack's town, still think dp's probably town

[Slaan]

No sheeping. Get reads yourself and follow those... we need everyone to put in work so everyone can be sorted.

[El Barto]

See post #1137

Typo fixed.

[Askthepizzaguy]

That "cfd" attempt onto either Monty or dp101, both of those attempts look godawful.

Think both targets are strongly townie.

I had town leans or strong town leans on both Zack and GH at one point but this is not two townies interacting, as I'm reading this.

I don't seriously think they believed the cfd attempt would work, given the time frame and the fact that we're on the org, and who might have been online at the time. I don't think they thought they could really save Logic, I think more serious attempts at that were made by both over the course of the round, in their own unique styles.

Here, I think they didn't know what to do and both choxorn and logic look like correct lynches, and that they both look like butt for defending Logic, so the play was confusion, stick to their meta of being in favor of cfds so they could at least look like they had no idea a scum was about to flip.

Plus there's always a chance some townie moves off of Logic and choxorn becomes snipe bait. If choxorn is town, this is a good way to destroy all of the positive progress being made on d1, and if he's scum, this at least is some kind of attempt at confusion.

I think both were at a loss for a better move under the circumstances. Just flat out pushing choxorn over Logic even if choxorn is town isn't a great play in the long term because Logic really looked bad by the end of that day and he'd probably have been revisited on choxorn's town flip especially with end of day shenanigans.

I don't think the random cfd attempts were significantly worse, and certainly less straightforward and readable, than simply pushing a more sincere-looking alternative to either, or just plugging away at the hope choxorn dies.

I really don't buy some of their suspects and the reasons why, and their arguments for why Logic was town were scummy. The dp push from both just makes me feel gross when looking at it.

I'll still go back and iso both, try to look at things from a body of work perspective, but I am sensing a lot more interest in chaos and unreadability and trying to make day one worthless than actual solving from both, particularly as the day wound down.

If either or both are townies I have my work cut out for me, and we all do, because it's quite bad on several re-reads.

I also gotta say, both of their posts after the flip felt awkward, like they weren't really sure what the town reaction should be to that. I don't want to read too much into that or give it a lot of weight, but I was all gung ho to give them both a shot at looking townie, and I am seriously wondering how either one has credibility at this point.

It wasn't lolcatting but it sure felt like desperation and trickery rather than sincere towning.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I think both have too much experience being scums to collapse in such a way so visibly or dramatically, but I'm having a hard time denying what I'm looking at.

I really had better sleep, and focus on town-building when I wake up. All of this seems too easy but it doesn't feel townie either. Don't know what to make of it.

[Askthepizzaguy]

One seemingly random vote for something very minuscule, and not related to the game? Yeah, I thought it was a tell. Especially since I don't see Slaan as a wolf.

Speaking of town building, Kagemusha is also in the same category as Winston Hughes, untouchable until like final 3. Logic spewed them both townie. The little bit of passive aggressiveness toward Kage happened before the WH pass-agg.

And Slaan. Slaan kicking it up a notch by pointing out Logic had no real basis for town reading him makes Slaan untouchable as well by interaction analysis, which also matches the body of work done by Kage, Winston, and Slaan this game.

I feel like those guys are your top 3 townies overall, in terms of strength of the read.

Does anyone have cause to disagree with that? If you do, I don't want to hear "because X is townier". I want to know why any of these three could be considered suspects now. Do good work before presenting your findings, it needs to be correct and change the minds of a skeptical audience if it is.

If you look at any of these three, what did they do this game that doesn't appear townie? How is Logic interacting with them in a way that looks guilty?

If you agree with these reads I also want that feedback. If town gets to be a certain size that's GG and we already have three people who should survive the night between the four of us who look lock town. So I feel like this is a good base, and we build off of the base.

Just looking for outlier opinions before I continue.

[Askthepizzaguy]

For starters, off the top of my head:

I've observed Zack being a somewhat relaxed version of his usual self, making me want to keep poking him until the cracks show.

I've observed pizza doing the kind of thing that tends to put him under suspicion on D1 as town, but with a certain knowingness about it that makes me question just how many layers he's working through.

I've observed Dp101 looking like his awkward townie self.

I've observed GH playing it cool, but giving hints of underlying reservation.

Dang.

What level are you on, Winston? I feel like you complete me.