Chess - Game Thread [Concluded]

[Montmorency]

Uhm, why wouldnt there be mafia lover in that setup? It seems highly likely to me from the simple that fact that the rules state 'There is no cult', not 'there is no 3p' which town/mafia lovers are essentially.

Think about the game balance.

We know Choxorn is an inventor with at least 1x Vig and 2x Doctor/protect. We know the Mafia had 1x Strongman. Without speculating on roles for the final Mafia, which is almost certainly not a killing role at this point, attaching one of four scum to a lover is a serious handicap.

Monty, Csargo, do you know mechanically that the other is town or not?

It is not host-confirmed.

[Csargo]

Monty, Csargo, do you know mechanically that the other is town or not?

No it doesn't specifically say he's town. It says blah blah blah town lover.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Now I got a question: Isnt a lover pair of town/mafia considered 3p here that only wins together and not with their respective alignments? That how it works where I'm from

I can't speak for Sooh.

I haven't played enough on Dragonmount to know how they handle lovers, never saw any while I played there a few times.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Of the two, Csargo still looks guiltier to me. So I'll read his game and decide if it makes sense...

If not, I'll help Slaan self-terminate.

[Csargo]

Of the two, Csargo still looks guiltier to me. So I'll read his game and decide if it makes sense...

If not, I'll help Slaan self-terminate.

I will continue to be forever and always townie to the core, so lynch me if you can't see that.

Vote:Slaan

[Askthepizzaguy]

I am just being super thorough.

Did you two mind meld on reads, or did you force your reads to be similar because of the lover aspect?

In other words, when you did agree during the game, was it strategic, or natural?

[Slaan]

So some random thoughts under the assumption they are essentially 3p... quickly how it works on where I'm from: Fellow wolfes know of the '3p wolf' but don't know he is 3p. 3p wolf participates as normally in choosing NK target.
- Would there be yet another mafia around? Unlikely, because then there would be 5 mafia in total and that would've raised eyebrows with the other wolves in this 17 person set up
- So that would mean that mafia faction itself was eliminated (quite possible Sooh wouldnt comment on that)
- Balance would look bad for mafia. Only 3 ppl and they have an opposing factions that knows their identities... yea very unlikely, I'm going to discard this possibility.

[Montmorency]

I am just being super thorough.

Did you two mind meld on reads, or did you force your reads to be similar because of the lover aspect?

In other words, when you did agree during the game, was it strategic, or natural?

He was suspicious of you D1, and we both criticized Zack. We didn't talk substantially (not like, standard volume) until you started pushing Csargo yesterday.

[Askthepizzaguy]

If the mafia faction were eliminated, and it were announced, then the lover team is a third faction.

[Sooh]

Guys, I made a booboo. It's D5. Day is supposed to be 24h. Here is a vote count with the correct phase length. Other posts will be modified to reflect this.

Vote count:

Xiahou (1): Slaan,

Slaan (1): Csargo,

Not voting (6): Cuthillius, Dp101, Montmorency, Choxorn, Xiahou, Pizza,

With 8 players there are 5 to hammer.


EOD4:

[Askthepizzaguy]

The reason being, if the mafia is dead, and the game continued, there would be a town hostile faction remaining.

[Askthepizzaguy]

We have three dead scums.

If the situation were such that town only wins if we eliminate a mafia inside the lover team, that basically gives the mafia 5 useful members.

Even if the "townie" inside the lover team is marked as town, his concern is then only to survive. He's not really town, but 3p and essentially hostile to town.

So, if one of them were scum, the game would have 5 hostiles.

Versus just a joat? That's tough.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Vote: Slaan

[Slaan]

Now onto the possibilities of a mafia/town that doesnt win alone but with their respective alignments... havent ever seen this before so I'm just spitballing
- I think it's NAI overall in terms of balancing? Yes mafia looses on of their own if the townies dies but the same goes the other way too.
- Town Joat giver does seem strongly very pro town and with a potential doc still out there... if there isnt a doc though I can see a town/mafia couple here. I mean w/o investigative roles having ~25% mafia is rather mafia sided in the first place
- Two townies in couple would be strongy anti town, so then I'd assume a doc is around and the doc wouldnt be among them?

Idk how strongly I should evaluate those PR's though... do they make up for a missing cop alone even with joat+doc? I think this would roughly equalize so why penalize town with a two town couple? Probably because it was 17 players at start and not 16 (for the exact 25% mafia ratio), so forcing two townies to essentially have one 'killspot' together fits here.

So I guess I buy the two towny theory? Which is great as this guarantees my Xia lynch at some point

[Montmorency]

We have three dead scums.

If the situation were such that town only wins if we eliminate a mafia inside the lover team, that basically gives the mafia 5 useful members.

Even if the "townie" inside the lover team is marked as town, his concern is then only to survive. He's not really town, but 3p and essentially hostile to town.

So, if one of them were scum, the game would have 5 hostiles.

Versus just a joat? That's tough.

If the win conditions are the same as town, then Mafia only hampered not helped. For example, if one lover says to the other D1 "I am scum", then he can just ask to eat a lynch and you trade 1 scum for 1 townie.

[Askthepizzaguy]

So close to victory if they were third party or hostile. I had just pushed monty out of the poe, and they win at f4 automatically pretty much.

No sense claiming here unless they think for sure that Csargo absolutely has to be the lynch.

And if that's the case, they'd have both been in favor of the Slaan push instead of arguing the merits.

[Askthepizzaguy]

So I guess I buy the two towny theory? Which is great as this guarantees my Xia lynch at some point

You're a bitter ender, like me. Never resign!

Ok. Lover team wins. Slaan/Xiahou and god help us if thats not correct.

[Dp101]

I'm in favour of just clearing the lovers, they are self-resolving, right?

[Slaan]

We have three dead scums.

If the situation were such that town only wins if we eliminate a mafia inside the lover team, that basically gives the mafia 5 useful members.

Even if the "townie" inside the lover team is marked as town, his concern is then only to survive. He's not really town, but 3p and essentially hostile to town.

So, if one of them were scum, the game would have 5 hostiles.

Versus just a joat? That's tough.

I don't see this argument, if I knew this was a possibility as lover I'd try to figure out the alignment of my partner (you guys have a chat btw?) and if I thought he was scum I'd probablys suicide myself by telling my town buddies if I only win with my faction. I mean that is the obvious thing to do...

[Askthepizzaguy]

I'm in favour of just clearing the lovers, they are self-resolving, right?

Yeah, and the game mechanically makes not a ton of sense if even one of them is scum.

Man, I had both in my POE, lol pizza.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Slaan gets ultimate townie points for pressing Xiahou if that's the right guess.

I never, ever get there without all this mechanical help.

[Montmorency]

I don't see this argument, if I knew this was a possibility as lover I'd try to figure out the alignment of my partner (you guys have a chat btw?) and if I thought he was scum I'd probablys suicide myself by telling my town buddies if I only win with my faction. I mean that is the obvious thing to do...

Is there an echo here?

And here's the clincher for how you know Csargo isn't scum: when Csargo was getting his share of suss from Pizza and others, Csargo apologized for his lackluster play potentially screwing me over.

[Montmorency]

This was D1, to be clear.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Without a hard claim from Xiahou I'd never lynch there today, and Slaan already claimed vt.

Easy way to resolve which goes first.

Votes plz.

[Slaan]

Yeah, and the game mechanically makes not a ton of sense if even one of them is scum.

Man, I had both in my POE, lol pizza.

It will be Xia and you will look like someone with a <45% winrecord as town!



But ok, I'll selfvote here so we/you don't waste a rl day and I don't have to worry anymore. I don't think we'd ever get behind pizza or dp at this point if they just GOATed the game until here. If there is scum in the lovers I think they have a high chance of winning. Lets play it through:

Slaan lynch -> chox nk -> xia lynch -> pizza NK -> now there is 4ppl with Cuth, dp and the lovers. Cuth could be scum or the scum could be in the lovers... even if cuth and dp agree to vote the lovers it would be a coinflip I think.

Anyway, will be up to you. Hammer me now

[v]Vote: Slaan[/v]

[Montmorency]

Wait for him and Cuth to show.

This is a short day anyway.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Wait for him and Cuth to show.

This is a short day anyway.

He's asking to be lynched, I think we should give him what he wants.

[Slaan]

Is there an echo here?

And here's the clincher for how you know Csargo isn't scum: when Csargo was getting his share of suss from Pizza and others, Csargo apologized for his lackluster play potentially screwing me over.

Why would he care about that as mafia? Just takes a towny with him if he can get the other mafia to bus him?

[Csargo]

I am just being super thorough.

Did you two mind meld on reads, or did you force your reads to be similar because of the lover aspect?

In other words, when you did agree during the game, was it strategic, or natural?

If I ever agreed with Monty it was natural, or previously discussed in the qt.

[Slaan]

Vote: Slaan

Voting is hard