Chess - Game Thread [Concluded]

[Dp101]

i thought the way he went about self voting was rather villagery, actually?

it wasn't a frustrated GAH YOU GUYS ARE AWFUL JUST KILL ME ALREADY

but more a sure ok whatever let's do this

which... i don't see him doing a ton as a wolf at this point in the game?

I thought something similar, but thought that he could still be a wolf just not wanting to get overly emotional again.

[Xiahou]

I thought something similar, but thought that he could still be a wolf just not wanting to get overly emotional again.

Well, obviously, he was town.

So what about AtPG, the puppet master? Any reason he's above suspicion? I had a real scummy vibe from Csargo- but he's produced a somewhat convincing alibi. I mean, I can't/won't read thru all prior posts- but I don't remember him ever even being considered suspicious....

[Dp101]

Well, obviously, he was town.

So what about AtPG, the puppet master? Any reason he's above suspicion? I had a real scummy vibe from Csargo- but he's produced a somewhat convincing alibi. I mean, I can't/won't read thru all prior posts- but I don't remember him ever even being considered suspicious....

ATPG cannot win as a wolf in F3. Like, he would get instantly voted by anyone who ended up there with him, therefore, a bussing strategy (like the one he would have to have used) is basically impossible.

[Csargo]

ATPG vigged Zack and I wouldn't think that would be allowed if he was scum, unless there's some weird mechanical shenanigans going on. Choxorn is cleared because claim. So that leaves me, Monty, Dp, Xiahou, Cuth.

[Xiahou]

Hmmm... so why hasn't the pizza man been killed yet? When offing someone shuts them up- why not take him out? I've probably missed something important.

What about Cuth or dp then? Both got some votes/suspicion cast on them by known scum, iirc- but not when there was any real danger of it meaning anything. Providing cover, perhaps?

[Dp101]

Hmmm... so why hasn't the pizza man been killed yet? When offing someone shuts them up- why not take him out? I've probably missed something important.

What about Cuth or dp then? Both got some votes/suspicion cast on them by known scum, iirc- but not when there was any real danger of it meaning anything. Providing cover, perhaps?

Cuth was definitely shaded, and if he is scum, his own partner not knowing he was voting me is amusing, so I’m not ruling it out completely. If you want to try making a case on me, please read through Pizza’s 2 ISOs of me first, I’ll link them in a bit. They are rather similar in parts, but still worth reading IMO.

[Dp101]

Cuth was definitely shaded, and if he is scum, his own partner not knowing he was voting me is amusing, so I’m not ruling it out completely. If you want to try making a case on me, please read through Pizza’s 2 ISOs of me first, I’ll link them in a bit. They are rather similar in parts, but still worth reading IMO.

Ok, that first sentence makes no sense in review. What I meant was that while he was shaded, it's not like he's been a shining beacon of towniness, so it's possible that there was just distancing happening.

Here's the first Pizza ISO of me, and here's the second.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Ok.

That one was tough, that one was like being punched in the gut super hard.

I was... dead sure Slaan would flip wolf. All the blood drained from my face.

I beat myself up over that result far more than you guys will ever know. At that point, I've been doing all the wolves' work for them and balanced out my contribution to the town to something like half and half. But I'm the only reason why final scumguy got this far and that stings.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I've done all the defense of Cuth and Xiahou I can.

At this point, even if I have to drag this to a lame mechanical victory, and swallow my pride about my town reads, I have to.

Mechanically, it doesn't make sense for the wolf to be inside the lover team. That's just too many votes against not enough firepower for town.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I think this is the actual truth of the matter. I haven't even looked at this game all day, I just wanted to be on record as fixing my mistakes before I die.

All the wolves had the same read on Cuth, and I think that was on purpose. I think GH deliberately voted Cuth for voting someone else, even when it didn't make any sense because cuth hadn't voted.

Just elaborate distancing.

Cuth probably said in wolf chat that he was super not interested in even playing this game, or that he was insanely busy and that they shouldn't rely on him. Maybe he didn't have any powers.

At the time, Zack and Logic were under heavy threat, and if Logic flipped, GH would look bad.

So they hard distanced from their teammate who wasn't ever in danger on day one. The only one that wasn't in danger from the Logic lynch.

That way, when they all flip, Cuth looks good.

That explains both their behavior, and Cuth's own gigantic drop in input after D1.

His role at that point is simply to keep his head down, and let me do all the talking and defense for him.

He, by the way, showed up again only after I had locked him town for that analysis on him versus GH and Zack.

The timing on that felt a little suspect, but I was in death tunnel on Slaan.

It's Cuth, not Xiahou.

[Askthepizzaguy]

It wasn't a total collapse. They were playing against the analysis, playing against what I always do when wolves flip.

They got me.

They didn't suck this game.

[Askthepizzaguy]

The vote by GH could have legitimately missed that his own partner didn't actually vote on the person he was asking questions about, or that could have been by design. Someone notices that there was no vote.

Or, if the wagon on Cuth takes off. GH can go Oh, You Didn't Actually Vote There. I didn't see that. That takes away my case.

Unvote.

[Askthepizzaguy]

The main town points cuth ever got was because of the other scums.

If you assume all of that movement was distancing, the rest of his game, post day 1, sucks out loud and is scummy as hell.

[Dp101]

Ok.

That one was tough, that one was like being punched in the gut super hard.

I was... dead sure Slaan would flip wolf. All the blood drained from my face.

I beat myself up over that result far more than you guys will ever know. At that point, I've been doing all the wolves' work for them and balanced out my contribution to the town to something like half and half. But I'm the only reason why final scumguy got this far and that stings.

Eh, you carried us early on, don't feel too bad.

[Dp101]

And yes, I'm perfectly fine with a Cuth lynch.

[Askthepizzaguy]

How confident am I?

55/45

Cuth, then Xiahou.

Xiahou only being suspected because all the other suspects didn't pan out, and because it is replicable to do this game as he did and just bus everyone and coast after that. It's trivial, I just don't see it happening a lot.

And, well. I'm not confident on much of anything anymore. Except that dp101 is my townie buddy.

Cuth's game and strategy on day one and the other wolves' strategy toward him makes sense. That's a winning plan.

Xiahou's moves do not make sense as a winning plan.

That's what edges it out for me.

If it was all on Xiahou to win this game, then he was to bus GH and Zack, and then do nothing else all game that was townie, and just hope no one POEs him, when all game, people have wanted to POE him or were suspicious that his accuracy had to be bussing.

Ok. So then it's not a winning plan, is it?

Maybe it's the one they were forced into.

So, you guys decide which. That's my guess.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Eh, you carried us early on, don't feel too bad.

No.

No I did not.

My value to town is directly a function of what the others in the game do.

I cannot innately find all the scumbags and clear most of the townies. That's not possible even if I find one of the scums independently of anyone.

Any analysis I did this game that was correct, and I did do a bunch, was all because of how active, engaged, and correct my fellow townies were.

I had issues clearing some slots, but mechanics saved the day on those.

All I did was when others on my team did a good performance, I was able to recognize it and say they did so.

That takes a village.

I am just a guy with a big mouth and too much confidence in my own reads.

I nailed the easy reads, but the hard ones I got backwards.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I hate to disagree with Slaan after all his work, and the consensus that it has to be Xiahou now.

No. I blew the Cuth read because the thread was an anti-analysis minefield specifically designed to get him unearned town cred from the dead wolf spew.

Cuth might not play that way, but Zack and GH? Hell yes. They probably came up with it.

It would have worked but Cuth didn't do anything after day one except coast.

[Askthepizzaguy]

And if it's Xiahou, you guys all see it and I'm a dummy. So. Have at it.

I got the three easy wolves and I missed the only wolf that matters, regardless who it is.

I'm only alive because wolf is playing against the idea there was a full doc, and because I was very useful to him, not his teammates, but him.

I am the evidence the wolf is in Xiahou and Cuth. But Cuth's behavior after I town read him and gave reasons why it wasn't him, is why he's guilty.

Xiahou don't give a shit.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I can't tell anymore, do we have enough lynches to hit them both?

If so, you can win this game. It's not in dp and it shouldn't be in the lovers.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Pizza
Choxorn
Dp101
Monty
Csargo
Xiahou
Cuthillius

Even if the lovers both died tonight, that puts us at a final 5, which means enough time to hit them both.

[Askthepizzaguy]

If it was Csargo then we should have lynched him on the day Xiahou and I voted him and the rest voted for Barto.

But a town/scum lover pairing is bad balance, imo.

[Dp101]

Pizza
Choxorn
Dp101
Monty
Csargo
Xiahou
Cuthillius

Even if the lovers both died tonight, that puts us at a final 5, which means enough time to hit them both.

Yeah, I think we have a lock, I don't think there's any more point beating ourselves up. We've won, probably.

[Montmorency]

I can't tell anymore, do we have enough lynches to hit them both?

If so, you can win this game. It's not in dp and it shouldn't be in the lovers.

We should have two lynches.

Look, Pizza, you have a point about Cuth being attacked by Zack and GH, and my counter was that so were Barto and Choxorn, but Cuth is the only one who was attacked by all three flipped scum.

However, what do you think about both GH and Zack taking time to talk about Xiahou's action indirectly, only to conclude with nullish reads ('not arrogant enough to town-read but want to'/'he voted me for no good reason but should be resolvable in the future'), a parallel that from checking D1 several times was not evident with any other player?


Your analysis this game has been high quality, you just sometimes get hung up on obscure specifics and connections that other people have a hard time interpreting or scrutinizing - so it's hard to talk you out of points you're wrong on.

Pizza
Choxorn
Dp101
Monty
Csargo
Xiahou
Cuthillius

Even if the lovers both died tonight, that puts us at a final 5, which means enough time to hit them both.

I have a thought about this, and I'll say if I'm able to when night ends.

[Askthepizzaguy]

What I can say about Xiahou is that I can be wrong about him.

I just have not seen the strategy employed by him this game if he's scum. Typically, the wolves that don't talk and don't influence do not join in on suspicions on a talkative, high value, high influencing wolf on day one, when there are lots of low hanging fruits to park a vote on.

If I had seen that strategy employed more since I began playing nine years ago, then I'd suspect Xiahou. I even admit that it's trivial to replicate.

I just.... have no history of such a strategy in my memory ever being executed by any low talker wolf, ever.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I think the only thing my high effort this game was worth, in the end, was the ability to guess wrong this many times and still be in everyone's town lists.

That's it. It gave us one additional townie over standard. A lot of work and little to show for.

[Dp101]

I think the only thing my high effort this game was worth, in the end, was the ability to guess wrong this many times and still be in everyone's town lists.

That's it. It gave us one additional townie over standard. A lot of work and little to show for.

I'm really not sure that we all would have come around to GH and Zack, or that we would have collectively cleared as many people as you managed to. Sure, you were wrong, but slots like Reinoe's I'm not sure if I ever would have townread. Hell, the logic push that got this all started would not have been as successful without you constantly telling literally everyone to vote him. Again, this is pointless, please stop beating yourself up over your mistakes while ignoring what you did well.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I can't ignore my mistakes. They directly impact others' enjoyment of the game.

Listen, guys. If you all were sentient AI programs who don't have feelings, I feel great about my game.

Instead, I've definitely annoyed a lot of people this game. That sucks.

[Askthepizzaguy]

2/4 and agreeing with an additional 1 in the 4 is respectable even if I guess wrong.

The problem is, there's more to the game than guessing right or wrong. If people aren't having fun no one gives a shit what the outcome was.

[Cuthillius]

I think this is the actual truth of the matter. I haven't even looked at this game all day, I just wanted to be on record as fixing my mistakes before I die.

All the wolves had the same read on Cuth, and I think that was on purpose. I think GH deliberately voted Cuth for voting someone else, even when it didn't make any sense because cuth hadn't voted.

Just elaborate distancing.

Cuth probably said in wolf chat that he was super not interested in even playing this game, or that he was insanely busy and that they shouldn't rely on him. Maybe he didn't have any powers.

At the time, Zack and Logic were under heavy threat, and if Logic flipped, GH would look bad.

So they hard distanced from their teammate who wasn't ever in danger on day one. The only one that wasn't in danger from the Logic lynch.

That way, when they all flip, Cuth looks good.

That explains both their behavior, and Cuth's own gigantic drop in input after D1.

His role at that point is simply to keep his head down, and let me do all the talking and defense for him.

He, by the way, showed up again only after I had locked him town for that analysis on him versus GH and Zack.

The timing on that felt a little suspect, but I was in death tunnel on Slaan.

It's Cuth, not Xiahou.

...go jump in a lake?

this is the most ridiculously conjectural and awful push you've made yet this game

you really think that all the wolves, on a team like that, would have agreed at the start of the game saying "hm yeah let's kinda push this guy all d1"

you think that's how things would have played out?

so they would have been like yo let's all throw cuth under the bus, and wait no never mind let's go logic instead, but let's try to cfd onto ANOTHER PERSON

and then they all die but since i was bussed it's a perfect plan and i win in f3!

like

number one "Cuth probably said in wolf chat that he was super not interested in even playing this game, or that he was insanely busy and that they shouldn't rely on him" is absolutely awful regardless of anything else

apart from the fact that it doesn't line up with me, how i play in general, or how i played this game

it's also just kinda slimy

"He, by the way, showed up again only after I had locked him town for that analysis on him versus GH and Zack."

uh

so

i hate to bring this up in this context but

like i said i had no motivation to play game during hurhur lettuce tunnel specific person and make fun of them for being so bad phase of game

the gamestate changed from that to one that was actually interesting/inspires some sort of collaboration and effort

about the time i got sick and was barely conscious for a day and a half, and only as of yesterday/today have been able to give a wildebeest's vertebra about this game

it's also a blatant misrepresentation of "showing up" but hey