Chess - Game Thread [Concluded]

[Winston Hughes]

Was a short stalk then... did you enjoy it? :D

First day was great. Much less fun without Sooh and you.

I recall no details, but retain an impression of you showing game.

[Sooh]

lolG11

[Zack]

just checked that game. sooh was the top poster, a villager, and lynched d1.

[Sooh]

Don't you dare submitting me to another championship!

[Slaan]

just checked that game. sooh was the top poster, a villager, and lynched d1.

It was frustrating... and I chickened to defend her cuz I didnt want more spotlight on myself so I'd survive the night... that worked out well.

[Cuthillius]

monty's interaction with winston/zack at the beginning of the game is really really weird

i just

don't think it's particularly game-related

it

still really just bothers me a little

i feel like he drags something that's unrelated anything out for no discernable reason?

it's not even fluff or stuff, it just feels like it's taking fluff and... almost trying to get it to a game-related area without doing so?

probably reading into it too much

[Askthepizzaguy]

Winston Hughes, the tl;dr version.

Page 1: NAI

Page 2: 152 feels significantly townie enough to mention it to you. I even think he might have rustled Zack with his joke suspicion, but I'm hunting townies so let's stick to that. I feel like his joke leans list with Monty as third party gave away the joke. Otherwise it's Zack/GH/Pizza all being found as suspicious before we got rolling, which is less obviously the joke but more like the punchline. Humor is a good thing to consider, and Winston's humor is good here, even if he might have been accidentally right on someone. Nothing locking here yet.

Page 3: NAI

Page 4: no posts

Page 5: no posts

Page 6: Seems like his joke suspicion on Zack has begun to take a mild turn for the worse. Just noting it. Here he seems to be voicing real suspicion on GH and Zack, or at least a desire to put pressure on those slots. 437 seems to indicate real suspicion there. But here we go, 439. I'll quote the relevant posts below. Then Logic in 457. See bottom analysis for more. This is quite telling.

Page 7: 508 demonstrates a dichotomy between him and Zack. Don't see them being w/w. Again, someone is shading Winston outright and he's almost oblivious to it, just taking Zack on the level and responding to him on the level, despite his mild suspicions on Zack. If this were distancing, this is deliciously subtle acting that you never see. By 509 he seems to let go of the early Zack suspicion. Then in 511 bam! The Logic vote coupled with this is real suspicion is a good indicator. After a quick hop onto El Barto, when Barto votes him back, he's back on Logic. 553 hates the fact that his vote on Logic looks like a sheep of me. Page 6 and 7 are great quick peeks for those of you at 80 posts per page like me, to get a feel for WH in context.

Page 8: NAI

Page 9: no posts

Page 10: Post 792 mindmeld about choxorn. Whether that's right or not, I don't know, but Winston is constantly thinking of the same things I am, slightly before, or slightly after I do. This is not coincidence. If it was all after, it'd be less convincing, and it would be WH blatantly sheeping me as either alignment and I don't think he'd decide to be that submissive. Since he's taking the lead on things I am concluding at roughly the same time, just after he posted it, I think it's completely real that he's solving the game similarly to me. 797 rings true. 799 is a very townie process.

Page 11: 810 is good. Winston's language here expresses knowledge and confidence where scums tend to express less confidence unless it serves a specific purpose. 812 and for much of the page, Winston questions Zack for solving purposes and asks Monty to flesh out his reasons why he has issue with Zack more. This plus the earlier bits, and then a frustrated decision that Zack must be town, but the niggling doubts still creeping in thereafter indicate someone whose agenda is to find townies while still being honest about what suspicions he does find. He wants Zack to be a townie but something is off in his estimation, and couldn't pinpoint it. By 826 he says this. All of this looks very good no matter what Zack's alignment is. But 835 is the major tell. I absolutely believe that Winston Hughes is hunting and finding Logic from a clean notebook using his own detective's reasoning, and it has absolutely nothing to do with sheeping me. He's got his own reasons and views on why Logic is scum. This is an independent get and it doesn't matter the chronology. If I weren't in this game, Winston still would have caught Logic today. He deserves full credit, this is the same level of a bus as if I were the one doing it, and I think Winston also knows how effin' bad that is. He can bus but there's a time and a place and it wasn't early d1 before the poor guy could even establish himself. I think I got him at a time when he couldn't even post that much in his own defense, before the mid-point of d1. That's NOT a time to bus and Winston was attacking him that early. I absolutely believe 839 is a real tinfoil. 840 is really good snap reasoning. 845 is Winston giving credence to a Zack tinfoil that he doesn't even think he should be able to be having, because it would indicate Zack's scum game is enormously improved from previous heights, which WH respected already. This is a thought and a revelation that townies have, and scums don't really. Especially not acted this well. Whatever Zack's alignment, Winston's looks good just from interacting with Zack and sussing him. He struggles hard with Zack's alignment this game but is trying to solve him town based on townie-looking behavior. He's not trying to mislynch Zack, that motive isn't there. 877 Snap read of Fredwood town crossposting with Zack calling Fredwood scum looks like a real crosspost and further adds to the Winston/Zack dichotomy. They're not aligned together unless both are town, and WH looks very town. Also just that bit, I feel like it demonstrates that Winston is looking to build a town, as opposed to tearing one down.

Page 12: NAI

Page 13: No posts





.....

For starters, off the top of my head:
I've observed Zack being a somewhat relaxed version of his usual self, making me want to keep poking him until the cracks show.
I've observed pizza doing the kind of thing that tends to put him under suspicion on D1 as town, but with a certain knowingness about it that makes me question just how many layers he's working through.
I've observed Dp101 looking like his awkward townie self.
I've observed GH playing it cool, but giving hints of underlying reservation.

This feels like real solving and vigilance.

I'm wary of being affected by pizza's mystical bit, but reading Logic's ISO suggests an underlying sense of control that wasn't there in previous games.

This is significant because it is assisting with the suspicion on Logic, but from Winston's own work page. He didn't just copy what little I said and go yeah, he seems off. Instead he volunteers new reasoning and basis for the suspicion from his own detective work, which makes me believe he's actually independently solving the game.

I read his iso. To me, it looks more like a townie toeing the waters on a new group of people than someone with hidden information.

Winston, this... looks odd. It sounds to me like a willingness to lynch pizza, but an admission that you know he's town.

I don't think Logic ever posts this to a partner. Also notable in this post is the top line is a response to Kagemusha questioning how he got Slaan town-read so early, which also makes Kagemusha townie in retrospect as I already mentioned. The underlined bit, ironically, demonstrates Logic's perfect information as he's accusing Winston of having perfect information. How often that's gonna be a scum/scum interaction I leave to the imagination of the reader, but in my book, there's bad and there's not bad, and this ain't bad for the Winstonian.

Just experience talking. As much as I want to keep pizza under pressure, I'm leery of actually lynching him because, historically, it's been a very bad move.

The follow up a couple posts later does not read like Winston is mutually distancing from Logic. In fact, it just reads like Winston is taking what he's saying at face value even though Logic is smearing him. I don't think it sinks in until later, which indicates that it's not acting when it does.

Vote: Logic

Reviewing my reactions, he seems the closest thing to an actual scumread.

Like his repeated return to Zack as a mild suspicion, he repeats his claim that Logic is actually suspect and repeats votes on him as well.

Never change.

Vote: Logic

As has been demonstrated.

choxy so conservative.

Where's the juice, choxy?

Before I switcheroo on choxorn, Winston says what was nagging me during one of my catch-ups. I had chox as town, then posts in between changed my mind, and Winston saw it first.

Three scenarios, ordered most-to-least likely by my estimation:

1) pizza is town and correct about Logic

2) pizza is town and wrong about Logic

3) pizza is scum

Above questions re. pizza are due diligence, in recognition that pizza is better at getting townread as scum than as town (esp. on D1).

looks good.

unvote

Don't want Logic hammered tonight.

Logic actually getting enough momentum to be near hammer danger at this point, and that discussion time is vital for town especially with people who have yet to really post much. Even a strong scum candidate is not worth hammering day one early, that's anti-town. So while this should be NAI, I fully fully back this decision.

My level of confidence in pizza's towniness and his read of Logic is a new sensation.

I want to prod at it before it's either confirmed or questioned by the flip.

This rings true. I don't look so townie so early so well and I don't think I make a super solid case on d1 very well either. But I also don't think WH is just saying this to hide in my town. That's basically what it has to be if he's scum, and the rest of his ISO doesn't match that theory. I think we are simply mindmelding. Scums have an agenda, and that agenda is rarely as simple as "say what pizza is thinking before he knows he's thinking it, and sheep him relentlessly". That's not ever really a playbook they choose or could stick to if they tried. They have to be able to move around, not tie their own hands.

@Montmorency

Would you really lynch Zack today?

I believe if I'm correct, this is Winston's mild discomfort with Zack re-appearing. At this point, and in the posts just after, he asks Monty to develop the Zack read more and flesh out his reasons, and he begins to question Zack in a solving Zack's alignment sense.

I feel you.

But I came to a Logic scumread for my own reason: control.

What I've seen of townie Logic, he exercises little conscious control and just posts what he thinks.

This Logic feels like he's thinking about it.

This is WH's independent get for Logic. The chronology doesn't matter, Winston nabbed Logic legitimately.

GH's big post looks townie in itself, but it feels a little scummy to me that he'd make that his main engagement with the thread at this stage.
Where's the chat, GH?

Complex thoughts and good vigilance. Looks townie but feels scummy is a real and complex thought that scums don't often use as a line of attack.

If Zack isn't town, he's nailed the impression.

I'm sold.

Still struggling with the apparent contradiction of having scummy vibes about Zack, while Zack's actual acting is amazing. Even this wording indicates that he's giving Zack his earned acting award, but is having trouble in his gut with fully believing in it. This is more like a decision to stick with the odds and being impressed by Zack than a wholehearted town read. This is the theme of his day one feelings toward Zack. Man it looks townie but I'm having trouble keeping Zack in my town, kind of thoughts. Keeps giving bad feelings but still looks amaze. Those are complex thoughts and shows Winston's struggle.

Zack is a bad vote.

Join me on GH.

Does not feel correct to try to talk Xiahou out of voting for Zack if the goal is to cause mislynches and Zack is town, especially after he would have been putting a lot of acting investment into struggling with Zack's alignment this round. This post demonstrates Winston's motive clearly: He was looking for townies and struggling to put Zack into his town despite the fact that it looks like he belongs there on some levels. But here he is, defending his hard-fought town lean on Zack, because he's trying to build a town, not destroy one.

Vote: Logic

That's about all that needs to be said.

That's a ton of work to establish him as town and he's obvious town and everyone has him town, so don't take him out of your town even if he messes up later. But the diligence has been done. His iso is clean, no scums lurking inside of it.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Winston Hughes, the short version.

457
511
835

I'm wary of being affected by pizza's mystical bit, but reading Logic's ISO suggests an underlying sense of control that wasn't there in previous games.

I read his iso. To me, it looks more like a townie toeing the waters on a new group of people than someone with hidden information.

Winston, this... looks odd. It sounds to me like a willingness to lynch pizza, but an admission that you know he's town.

Vote: Logic

Reviewing my reactions, he seems the closest thing to an actual scumread.

Never change.

Vote: Logic

unvote

Don't want Logic hammered tonight.

I feel you.

But I came to a Logic scumread for my own reason: control.

What I've seen of townie Logic, he exercises little conscious control and just posts what he thinks.

This Logic feels like he's thinking about it.

Vote: Logic

Logic spewed him town, he spewed himself town by going after Logic, he spewed himself town by having his own reasons in spite of my case that some folks couldn't grok or didn't agree with. I think he lynches Logic today even if I weren't around, or at least highly suspects him and votes him.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Winston Hughes needs to be universally lock town. Moving on to next lock townie.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Kagemusha, the tl;dr version.

Page 1: No posts
Page 2: No posts
Page 3: No posts
Page 4: No posts
Page 5: Opens with joke vote on Slaan. Later, does a roleplay post of an arrogant and crazy person, likely Bobby Fischer. The beard reference is likely due to Bobby not having a beard while active, and then having one much later. Logic's 397 indicates well for Kage.
Page 6: Kage responds to Logic's vote with an OMGUS. 415 even more strongly indicates town-Kage. That process is a legitimate way to get the ball rolling and one I believe Kage will default to often enough. 424 Logic spew is sharply good for Kage. Kage's own 425 snap back 3 minutes later is extremely good for Kage. After that, Logic doesn't have a good answer for a good long time. Over 2 hours later he comes back with this weaksauce.

(pizza snip)
Kage shows up with what looks like a lazy vote on Slaan. Possibly a joke, but I think there's a more than reasonable chance that Kage is mafia.
(pizza snip)
[b]Vote: Kagemusha[b/]

Click for context, most of that post is irrelevant for Kage, but this is the important bits.

Another one who cant understand what true strategy is.Truly illogical! Unvote and Vote: Logic . Though i will get you for your slander Slaan, sooner rather then later!

Snap.

At least it got you to talk and Logic to vote. Is there something else we can do at the moment? Get people to talk and start drawing lines into thin air in order to find associations later? In the past Ive tried to play old style as town only observing at the start and got myself mis lynched enough times for lurking. So her i am talking. Lets talk.

A mish-mash of old school Kagemusha and modern Kagemusha, still out of date in the current meta but the old warhorse has valid methods that he believes in, he uses, this is his real process as mentioned before.

I only know the style of few people playing. This morning when i went to through the thread, mostly it is just nonsense. Csargo seems like Csargo. So does GH. Pizza seems to be claiming some sort of ultimate knowledge which is completely normal for him. Choxorn drops by and does the minimum and you and Manasi seem to have some sort of sweet talking going on, which i think i recall also from earlier games. DP seems like he is on the verge of meltdown when it comes to mafia, which i can relate to quite well. I could not get any reaction from Slaan with my vote, which is too early for me to analyze. Logic seemed to be eager to react to my sudden activity, but thats about it. What have you observed so far? It would be lot easier to read it through one post then from myriad of posts.

This is a lot of depth in Kage terms. All offered freely. For some other people I'd consider this thin, but for Kage this early, it's got depth and reveals bits of his process as well, see the bits on Slaan. I should call this NAI but it gives me good feels.

One seemingly random vote for something very minuscule, and not related to the game? Yeah, I thought it was a tell. Especially since I don't see Slaan as a wolf.

The bolded makes Kage sharply townie. The phrasing is all wrong for Logic if Kage is a partner. It just looks like Logic randomly white knighting Slaan when he had no business doing so, so he could attack Kagemusha.

And where does the thought of Slaan not being a wolf stems from? Do you know him from other games/forums or what are you basing on that assumption?

Obliteration. Kage destroys Logic independently of me or Winston with one punch. This one question is the damning one.

I read his iso. To me, it looks more like a townie toeing the waters on a new group of people than someone with hidden information.

Winston, this... looks odd. It sounds to me like a willingness to lynch pizza, but an admission that you know he's town.

The first bolded is why he had Slaan as town apparently, after Kage snapped back at him about where in the heck he could think he's town. This is not indicative of a real process as I said at the time, and now we know is true, and the second bolded is him trying to deflect. Looking at the chronology, Logic's mistakes largely take place because Kage prompted them, after he voted for Kage. That sequence of events is never Logic voted a partner, partner fired back with an instantly crippling question, followed by other huge mistakes from Logic that I was able to see and what ultimately got him lynched because several folks saw them as mistakes. This sequence happens when Kage is town only.

Gonna stop here, Kage is never dying this game except by murder. This is all you need, this is sufficient.

Universal town read on Kage from everyone, even if he makes mistakes from here on out, please. This is a read that should not fade with time or based on Kage pushing a townie. It's a perma read.

[Askthepizzaguy]

NETA, confusing unfinished thought because of missing link:

"Over 2 hours later he comes back with this weaksauce."

Should have included a link to the bottom quote in the above post. That was the finishing blow to Kage ever being scum here.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Still 9 hours left on the clock. Got a very early dinner and I'm fueled up to continue.

Let's take a look at why Slaan is a townie now. That's the part a couple were taking issue with, so it's important I flesh it out right.

See if you agree or tell me why you disagree.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Dp101 is not on the table for me. I've stated why in the iso I did of him. If GH and Zack pushed him like that, it was good distancing, but I don't believe it since he doesn't AtE as scum as far as I know, and he got mad at reinoe.

Csargo I never isoed. I remember just thinking as the game got on in days that his posts looked better and better and the opening awkwardness was missing.

Fredwood could be scum, in some universe. I guess. I don't see it. I did iso him and he looks fantastic.

Barto is in the POE and he's who I would have lynched today if Slaan's POE didn't look overly calculated.

Monty is townier than I've ever seen him. I guess he could do this, because he's an amazing scum.

Cuthillius I have very little to go on. Just a feeling from isoing him. I also don't think it's in his meta to just slank to the end of a game. But I can't lock him.

Choxorn is lock by claim now.

Xiahou has an outstanding vote record. I don't think you ever lynch there. I feel like I have a good record with low posters because of my experience playing on this site. I've played with Khazaar, I've played with Autolycus, I play with csargo when he's posting twice a round. I'm used to snapping a read on the low posters. This is what my gut is telling me about him.

Those are the alternatives today. If I just go into Csargo or Barto and they're both wrong, by then I'm probably dead, I can't look at my deeper townies.

That's all I have. Hopefully someone else can figure this out.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Mixed up csargo and choxorn's names again.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Going to be cleaning up some language in earlier posts. Keep cool, people.

[Csargo]

Mixed up csargo and choxorn's names again.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Pizza
Choxorn
Dp101
Monty
Csargo
Xiahou
Cuthillius

Even if the lovers both died tonight, that puts us at a final 5, which means enough time to hit them both.

[Askthepizzaguy]

If it was Csargo then we should have lynched him on the day Xiahou and I voted him and the rest voted for Barto.

But a town/scum lover pairing is bad balance, imo.

[Dp101]

Pizza
Choxorn
Dp101
Monty
Csargo
Xiahou
Cuthillius

Even if the lovers both died tonight, that puts us at a final 5, which means enough time to hit them both.

Yeah, I think we have a lock, I don't think there's any more point beating ourselves up. We've won, probably.

[Montmorency]

I can't tell anymore, do we have enough lynches to hit them both?

If so, you can win this game. It's not in dp and it shouldn't be in the lovers.

We should have two lynches.

Look, Pizza, you have a point about Cuth being attacked by Zack and GH, and my counter was that so were Barto and Choxorn, but Cuth is the only one who was attacked by all three flipped scum.

However, what do you think about both GH and Zack taking time to talk about Xiahou's action indirectly, only to conclude with nullish reads ('not arrogant enough to town-read but want to'/'he voted me for no good reason but should be resolvable in the future'), a parallel that from checking D1 several times was not evident with any other player?


Your analysis this game has been high quality, you just sometimes get hung up on obscure specifics and connections that other people have a hard time interpreting or scrutinizing - so it's hard to talk you out of points you're wrong on.

Pizza
Choxorn
Dp101
Monty
Csargo
Xiahou
Cuthillius

Even if the lovers both died tonight, that puts us at a final 5, which means enough time to hit them both.

I have a thought about this, and I'll say if I'm able to when night ends.

[Askthepizzaguy]

What I can say about Xiahou is that I can be wrong about him.

I just have not seen the strategy employed by him this game if he's scum. Typically, the wolves that don't talk and don't influence do not join in on suspicions on a talkative, high value, high influencing wolf on day one, when there are lots of low hanging fruits to park a vote on.

If I had seen that strategy employed more since I began playing nine years ago, then I'd suspect Xiahou. I even admit that it's trivial to replicate.

I just.... have no history of such a strategy in my memory ever being executed by any low talker wolf, ever.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I think the only thing my high effort this game was worth, in the end, was the ability to guess wrong this many times and still be in everyone's town lists.

That's it. It gave us one additional townie over standard. A lot of work and little to show for.

[Dp101]

I think the only thing my high effort this game was worth, in the end, was the ability to guess wrong this many times and still be in everyone's town lists.

That's it. It gave us one additional townie over standard. A lot of work and little to show for.

I'm really not sure that we all would have come around to GH and Zack, or that we would have collectively cleared as many people as you managed to. Sure, you were wrong, but slots like Reinoe's I'm not sure if I ever would have townread. Hell, the logic push that got this all started would not have been as successful without you constantly telling literally everyone to vote him. Again, this is pointless, please stop beating yourself up over your mistakes while ignoring what you did well.

[Slaan]

First day was great. Much less fun without Sooh and you.

I recall no details, but retain an impression of you showing game.

Well I wouldnt say less fun. It was still lots of fun reading with Awa and Tigger imo ^^

[Askthepizzaguy]

Well I wouldnt say less fun. It was still lots of fun reading with Awa and Tigger imo ^^

Terrible!

There's good and there's not good, and that's ^^^ not good.

[Slaan]

Terrible!

There's good and there's not good, and that's ^^^ not good.

I didnt say it was good, I said it was fun. Like lol fun :)

[Zack]

Pizza -- how late you plan on staying up tonight?

[Askthepizzaguy]

Pizza -- how late you plan on staying up tonight?

I get paid by the hour. You tell me.

[Montmorency]

working on it chief

Scummy, you're voting Csargo.

[Zack]

I get paid by the hour. You tell me.

I ... don't understand what you're implying here, or what the joke is if it's a joke