Chess - Game Thread [Concluded]

[Zack]

vote: choxorn

Don't really want to lynch barto anymore

I'm going to bed

[Cuthillius]

winston's stuff recently looks good

i like what he's doing and where he's going

movin' him up

[El Barto]

Time's up, lads.

(…)Also, I had a lot fewer RL commitments back in February than I do right now, which is why I'm only just briefly popping in and out- that's all I really have time to do.

Is this why you're voting choxorn, Zack?

[Dp101]

I've read everything, but I'm not sure if I'm going to be able to participate much tonight. I'm wiped out after a whole bunch of studying and probably should get more sleep than normal rather than play mafia late into the night. What I will say is that Zack is becoming even more lock town to me, I really feel the push on him is criticising him playing the game effectively rather than him doing anything scummy. I also think that the Fredwood mini-push based on the "unfortunately" phrasing is really stupid, and probably a poor look for everyone involved. Such a minor phrasing thing is just a really poor thing to base a read off of. Also, I think I'm mostly off of the Logic wagon, the GH analysis feels like it pushes him more towards town than anything else. Zack's Barto case looks decent, and I think that it is probably one of the stronger options at this point in time. The swap to chox is hot garbage IMO, the strategy of lynch the lowposter is rarely a good one. I get that the posts themselves have been a tad sheepy, but not sure that it's enough to make him the lynch.

[Choxorn]

did you read my posts on el barto?

I don't think the case is totally without merit, but I think it's grasping at straws a bit- Town El Barto is also prone to complaining about how active the thread is and Town El Barto also loves to OMGUS people. And it's for sure a low-hanging fruit case, because El Barto is, by virtue of his unconventional play, always a low-hanging fruit case that scum love to go after at some point.

[Sooh]

Vote count:

Pizza (1): Manasi

Manasi (1): GH

Zack (1): Xiahou

Logic (5): Pizza, Dp101, Slaan, Choxorn, Kagemusha

Reinoe (1): Fredwood

Kagemusha (1): Logic

El Barto (2): Reinoe, Csargo

GH (1): Winston Hughes

Choxorn (2): Montmorency, Zack

Xiahou (1): El Barto

Not voting (1): Cuthillius,

With 17 players there are 9 to hammer.


EOD1:

[Sooh]

[Zack]

I've read everything, but I'm not sure if I'm going to be able to participate much tonight. I'm wiped out after a whole bunch of studying and probably should get more sleep than normal rather than play mafia late into the night. What I will say is that Zack is becoming even more lock town to me, I really feel the push on him is criticising him playing the game effectively rather than him doing anything scummy. I also think that the Fredwood mini-push based on the "unfortunately" phrasing is really stupid, and probably a poor look for everyone involved. Such a minor phrasing thing is just a really poor thing to base a read off of. Also, I think I'm mostly off of the Logic wagon, the GH analysis feels like it pushes him more towards town than anything else. Zack's Barto case looks decent, and I think that it is probably one of the stronger options at this point in time. The swap to chox is hot garbage IMO, the strategy of lynch the lowposter is rarely a good one. I get that the posts themselves have been a tad sheepy, but not sure that it's enough to make him the lynch.

don't remember you being so quick to dismiss things as stupid and hot garbage before

I don't think the case is totally without merit, but I think it's grasping at straws a bit- Town El Barto is also prone to complaining about how active the thread is and Town El Barto also loves to OMGUS people. And it's for sure a low-hanging fruit case, because El Barto is, by virtue of his unconventional play, always a low-hanging fruit case that scum love to go after at some point.

why are you defending him but not logic?

also, I was hoping that when barto said he was going to be around that long he would do a little more than that :/

[Slaan]

Hello

[Slaan]

If Logic flips wolf I'm going to start looking realy hard at GH btw... in the wild west game he also tried to save a mafia buddy by going after Fredwood.

That being said I don't mind his attitude rn, doesnt hurt to look further than the 'easy' lynches so that's fine

[Slaan]

Btw whats the EoD meta here? What can I expect? CFD's? Lots of vote change? Or is it more quiet?

[Zack]

more quiet, though some people might be here to do stuff

[Kagemusha]

If Logic flips wolf I'm going to start looking realy hard at GH btw... in the wild west game he also tried to save a mafia buddy by going after Fredwood.

That being said I don't mind his attitude rn, doesnt hurt to look further than the 'easy' lynches so that's fine

Im thinking along the same lines. One reason for switching back to Logic yesterday for me was to see what GH would do.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Quick question to all before I even read up:

The people on the Logic wagon. Are we all townies? This 1-wagon formation is really not what I was expecting to come back to. I don't have an issue with anyone on the wagon though, or didn't at the time of my last post.

That's a lot of folks just spread out on random names elsewhere.

[Slaan]

I'm highly suspicious of Cho, rest is fine

[Kagemusha]

How i see Chox, is that all his townie games prepare for playing scum eventually, so there is not anything one can pick apart as difference. For that reason Chox becomes someone to be lynched at one point always, but i rather lynch him at points when there is not anything else to pursue.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Oh, I was referring to his consistent early pushing of me when he's scum. I'm pretty happy calling him town now.

It might have happened a couple of times, but I don't think that should be a reliable tell. I know when I am scum I do try to deliberately mix it up who I push against, and it's largely based off of who I think I can call scummy based on the game state. It'd be a coincidence if it was the same person in multiple games.

i don't have much of a lean on winston

i've been burned in the past

i'm not going to maintain that as a read unless i actually can come up with some reason

My gut reaction is to town read this post, regardless of where I have everyone else or the game state. It just strikes me as a genuine thought, but I don't know if I can put into words why I think so, and I'd rather go study some Cuth as scum games to get a better read for his latest scum meta. All I can remember offhand is his town game because it's been a while since he was scum against me I think.

Cuth someone I didn't have a strong read on before, so that's my homework assignment for end of round / before start of day 2.

1. GH
2. Csargo
3. Dp101
4. Pizza
5. Fredwood
6. El Barto
7. Montmorency
8. Zack
9. Cuthillius
10. Manasi
11. Slaan
12. Reinoe
13. Choxorn
14. Winston Hughes
15. Logic
16. Xiahou
17. Kagemusha

Any of the bolded people I'd consider suspicious. Probably throw WH in there for paranoia reasons as well, maybe Zack too for tinfoil reasons.

This list isn't making me feel better about Csargo's slot. If you bold WH and Zack, what you have left is still a bunch of folks I've argued are town, and doesn't town read any of my suspects. He doesn't even disagree with my suspects, but he thinks I'd bus them on day 1, which is not my MO at all. I feel like there should be a dichotomy between me and Logic if you suspect either one. Actually with such strong agreement with my leans, I don't think he should be having an issue with my slot at all, which makes me think he's not actually reading my slot for alignment.

Csargo doesn't really care if you scum read him if he's town. I've seen him get wagons on him and not even react. This list just feels like it was written from a non-town perspective for Csargo.

No more or less suspect than before, but it doesn't look right to me. Feels dishonest.

... what? Do you know what my scumrange and townrange are and could you even tell what is in one and not the other? Have you read a scum game from me to make those reads? Sorry but this post feels very bad from my point of view. What do you think is underwhelming about or going in a strange direction? Who do I shade unnecessary? You linked post is me calling out Bart for apparently being Bart and playing like crap (no offence ;)), I think calling him out on it is necessary. And yes my opening is weak, I don't care for the game in RVS and I'm not looking to solve there. I try to get to know the ppl a bit so I can better remember their names going forward... Let me put this differently: Who didnt have a weak opening in the first 2 hours?

This post just feels empty despite there being many words... same as the long post about dp previously... whats up Cuth?

This post reads generically like it could be scum taking advantage of a weak/attackable post by a townie. But all of those questions also feel legitimate and I feel like this could all be normal Slaan.

What I mean another way, is that this is the kind of post I look for motive on, because if Cuth is town, that post was really attackable, and how people attack suspicious posts tells me a lot about their real process. Passive aggression is something I've been noting across games more and more as a fairly reliable generic scumtell, if passive aggression is not in the person's town playbook. Something about being scum causes people to give easier justifications for scumreading people, and they also tend to distance themselves from that suspicion. Not always, not even in the majority of cases, but they do like to make it someone else's fault that they're scum reading them and they also tend to phrase the suspicion like innocent questions or smudges as opposed to "X is a wolf for this post".

This post would fit that pattern in general of Just Asking Questions to smudge Cuthillius. But my gut is telling me to discount that, like the reasons Slaan is doing it would be more like his own personality causing him to react this way to Cuth. The specific questions on townrange/scumrange and the question on who had a strong opening in the first couple hours feel like solving questions Slaan would most likely legitimately have.

So it fits a scummy pattern in the generic sense, but I don't think the tell is reliable in this specific instance. Slaan can be scum, I haven't locked him town, but this post isn't pushing me in that direction, even though it fits stuff I tend to look for.

I don't know Slaan's range, all I remember is that he was a seemingly competent and fun town player in his champs game. That's all I got. My town is pretty full but I still don't think he's doing anything here that would lead to kicking him out, despite the List Of Questions style post.

I'll break this up so it's not a big wall, posting and continuing.

[GeneralHankerchief]

@reinoe

I'm somewhere around here right now:

Zack
Kage
Monty

Dp101
reinoe
Slaan
Logic
Winston
ATPG

---town line---

Csargo
Xiahou
Cuth
Fredwood
El Barto

Choxorn
Manasi

~~~~~~

Zack is obvious town, Kage I already talked about, Monty seems like usual Monty.

The people in the next best slot all are either matching their town meta or are otherwise helping push the gamestate along in a way I consider to be townie.

Xiahou I think might be town just off the two post reads but I'm not arrogant enough to move him up a tier for that. I don't really have a read on Csargo and Cuth is sort of improving for me since I voted him early on in the phase as he gets more engaged, but he's not there yet. Fredwood I need to take another look at now that we've had some distance from our interaction yesterday and how it went down.

Choxorn as town just has... more bite to him. I'm not really seeing that from him here. Compare his some of his posts in Swords and Sorcery, where he was town:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I didn't know there was a lynchproof spell, it wasn't among my options.



I don't like this post at all, it sounds like what a scum would say if they wanted to defend a scumbuddy and go after the one attacking them. What do you mean, would have found something else by now? It's been a few pages, and it's still day 1, there's not much to go on.

Vote: Dp101



Well, only for one hand, he can still get more for his other hand, can't he (oh dear god, please no)

[snip]
At this point I'd say Sooh is probably scum unless she has a really good explanation for what happened night 1 and can show up today and stop acting like a scum with low wim who's resigned to defeat. If not her, lynch Snerk, if not either of them, lynch Csargo.

Vote: Sooh

To posts in Representative Democracy, where he was mafia:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

You missed my district vote for Cuth.



And I thought Pizza's textwalls were bad...

Seriously, make your point more succinctly, or quote some of the posts you're referring to, or something, because this is more or less a bland wall of text, it's hard to see the evidence if you don't quote anything Zack has actually said, and I can't really parse a lot of it to make sense of what your argument is.

And he's just more direct and to the point when he's town. So far the closest note he's hit here is probably this post:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

> Says Pizza is going after low-hanging fruit
> Votes El Barto





Your post is bad and you should feel bad

Even El Barto had more to say than just "I don't like how active the thread is"

Which isn't quite there.

[Slaan]

Well, it was just a normal Slaan response to a read post about me that doesnt make sense from my perspective, I think I'd respond this way as either alignment. Same way I'm now voting on Logic because of his read on me, Winston's read on me also pinged me a bit scummy and why I questioned Fred's townread on me. Reads towards me are always of considerable interest because trying to see how they got that read can tell me what mindset they have in regards to solving...

And on the subject of Cuth... for some reason I have him as a strong player in my mind but I'm starting to question it ... don't even know how I came to that conclusion in the first place, probably the different coloured nametag on MU and having talked with him on discord during champ games... anyway, I expected alot from him and his read on me fell way short.

Interesting analysis on the passive aggressive thing though... and I agree on principle although I might get into trouble for that considering I can be pretty p/a in general :D

[Askthepizzaguy]

no? i haven't read a single wolfgame from you, i'm just comparing it to when i have played with you, particularly anni

you just

are going in directions that... i don't expect and i don't think are the most productive, and i'm honestly not going to bother isoing you and quoting more

because it's a relatively thin read from my single read-through of this thread

and there's no huge reason i feel is making me want to or need to figure you out at this point

and... most people didn't have that weak of an opening? or at least felt more natural or, as is probably more applicable in the case, acted like i'm used to them acting, in that i've played with most of them at least multiple times

do you have a particular issue with me talking through a read of you/anyone else if i don't come to a firm conclusion at this point in the game?

Strikes me as a real thought townies have.

It may not be a perfect process, but I often have to juggle who I invest my time in. I often deliberately put some people in a vaguely town or vaguely suspect limbo state and wait until they do more, or I have more time, to tackle the slot.

I feel like such thoughts go missing from a scum-perspective. That's not on the forefront of their mind which is why this is more town indicative when you see it.

It's not widely thought of as a town tell so only the truly best scum actors should be faking this brainwave.

That should mean I have a strong town read on Cuth by now. I don't think my gut has caught up to my head.

[Slaan]

@GH Why do you have Logic so far up? He hasnt really been pushing the thread forward or anything really... Even if you don't agree with pizzas point or mine to have him so far above Xiahua who has similarly done not much... ?

PS: Can someone tell me why 'reply to thread' button sometimes opens a 'quick reply' window at the bottom and sometimes take me to the 'detailed reply' form?

[GeneralHankerchief]

@GH Why do you have Logic so far up? He hasnt really been pushing the thread forward or anything really... Even if you don't agree with pizzas point or mine to have him so far above Xiahua who has similarly done not much... ?

PS: Can someone tell me why 'reply to thread' button sometimes opens a 'quick reply' window at the bottom and sometimes take me to the 'detailed reply' form?

Logic has a larger sample size than Xiahou to judge, and he's acting in line with his town meta as per the context of the game as I mentioned yesterday.

No idea about the other issue unfortunately. Just one of those things.

[Slaan]

@GH/Pizza: do you guys know how both of you have such different interpretations of Logics meta? Do you feel like the other is lying/pushing a mislynch ?

[GeneralHankerchief]

@GH/Pizza: do you guys know how both of you have such different interpretations of Logics meta? Do you feel like the other is lying/pushing a mislynch ?

I don't think it's a different interpretation of Logic's meta so much as Pizza's case kind of just snowballing. At the time Pizza initially posted his first suspicion of Logic, Logic was still just interacting with the thread and engaging in the general fluffposting that had characterized the game to that point and called him out for it. As I mentioned in the big wall I made yesterday, Logic got down to the game faster in Pokemon, but that was also because everybody got down to the game faster in Pokemon.

Pizza also has a tendency to tunnel every now and then. I think he does it more as town than mafia, and he's right maybe a bit >rand, and he's been getting better at not doing it lately, but he still does it from time to time and I think the foundation of his tunnel is flawed here as I pointed out last night.

Hence, snowballing.

[Zack]

Xiahou I think might be town just off the two post reads but I'm not arrogant enough to move him up a tier for that.

???

[Zack]

Quick question to all before I even read up:

The people on the Logic wagon. Are we all townies? This 1-wagon formation is really not what I was expecting to come back to. I don't have an issue with anyone on the wagon though, or didn't at the time of my last post.

That's a lot of folks just spread out on random names elsewhere.

I think the most likely scenario is:

you are town, logic is a mislynch, wolves are blowing smoke up your butt to encourage it

[Zack]

I will be in and out today, most likely

will try to get the tiers list I talked about yesterday settled

should be here for eod

[Cuthillius]

monty's interaction with winston/zack at the beginning of the game is really really weird

i just

don't think it's particularly game-related

it

still really just bothers me a little

i feel like he drags something that's unrelated anything out for no discernable reason?

it's not even fluff or stuff, it just feels like it's taking fluff and... almost trying to get it to a game-related area without doing so?

probably reading into it too much

[Csargo]

This list isn't making me feel better about Csargo's slot. If you bold WH and Zack, what you have left is still a bunch of folks I've argued are town, and doesn't town read any of my suspects. He doesn't even disagree with my suspects, but he thinks I'd bus them on day 1, which is not my MO at all. I feel like there should be a dichotomy between me and Logic if you suspect either one. Actually with such strong agreement with my leans, I don't think he should be having an issue with my slot at all, which makes me think he's not actually reading my slot for alignment.

Csargo doesn't really care if you scum read him if he's town. I've seen him get wagons on him and not even react. This list just feels like it was written from a non-town perspective for Csargo.

No more or less suspect than before, but it doesn't look right to me. Feels dishonest.

It was probably a poor decision to bold you in that list tbh, since I would probably lump you in with Zack/WH at this point. My vote has just been a placeholder for a while now. Zack/WH/ATPG are me just being cautious about just lumping you all as town without due diligence on my part. It's still early and I think doing so would be a mistake. I did say at some point that the Logic flip would effect my view, which seems clear to me, but maybe I didn't make it so, but I really like holding contradictory views in my head, which has already been pointed out :). I honestly don't really town read anyone at this point, besides Kage, Monty, and DP101, I feel good about a lot of the unbolded people in my list, but I'm not really town reading them per se. As far as reading your slot for alignment, I'll just say that I'm being obstinate ~.

Just because we've come to the same conclusions on who is suspect at this point doesn't mean that you can't be scum or I can't be scum. It's just waiting for flips to see.

[Cuthillius]

I don't get it. I've not seen pizza play like this before. I know everything he does has a purpose, but here it feels like he is just playing by the seat if his pants. I'm confused, but I don't know if am am more or less so than Dp.

this post feels mildly discredit-y