Chess - Game Thread [Concluded]

[GeneralHankerchief]

I'm bored.

Vote: Choxorn

[Slaan]

Well, 72 hour days...

Btw where did Pizza go? The last bit from his last big post

I'll break this up so it's not a big wall, posting and continuing.

Reads like he wanted to give more reads/info but he just vanished? Did the pasta nation attack?

[Kagemusha]

I'm bored.

Vote: Choxorn

Why? :D

[reinoe]

As a recipient of Barto's unique version of the welcoming committee and me getting a bug in my bonnet about it, he does feel different. I feel a demonstrable difference between Bart in Xcom as opposed to Logic in XCom. Unfortunately most of Logic's play has been off the back foot so even if I did sense a change in playstyle.

I agree with Monty in the sense that Logic feels like the "correct" lynch today, but illogical me would like to vote Bart here.

Anyway fatigue etc etc etc neither have been here defending themselves etc etc etc.

Basically yeah, I'm willing to vote either here, but I think I'm leaning Logic (unfortunately)

lolok either are my top scumread, except logic is more of a thing, if you want to twist that into an agenda then feel free to do so.

Vote count:

Pizza (1): Manasi

Manasi (1): GH

Zack (1): Xiahou

Logic (5): Pizza, Dp101, Slaan, Choxorn, Kagemusha

Reinoe (1): Fredwood

Kagemusha (1): Logic

El Barto (2): Reinoe, Csargo

GH (1): Winston Hughes

Choxorn (2): Montmorency, Zack

Xiahou (1): El Barto

Not voting (1): Cuthillius,

With 17 players there are 9 to hammer.


EOD1:

To everyone who's not comfortable with a logic wagon...

Let's get a Fredwood counterwagon going on right here right now. Fredwood is caught not just in a logical inconsistency, he's also been caught not even continuing to do a re-assessment of the game or push his reads.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I think the most likely scenario is:

you are town, logic is a mislynch, wolves are blowing smoke up your butt to encourage it

I think he's not a mislynch but wolves are definitely blowing smoke up my butt.

I also think he's being bussed by 1 wolf.

[Winston Hughes]

Vote: Choxorn

Vote with one of my top suspects on the counter-wagon to my #1 suspect?

[reinoe]

VOTE: FREDWOOD

I almost edited my post. That feature should be disabled in the mafia sub-forum.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Well, 72 hour days...

Btw where did Pizza go? The last bit from his last big post



Reads like he wanted to give more reads/info but he just vanished? Did the pasta nation attack?

Eating dinner plus wife is watching or was watching border patrol and my god that shit is distracting. This is the post I was working on.

[Winston Hughes]

I also think he's being bussed by 1 wolf.

I got a bussy feeling off chox's vote.

[Askthepizzaguy]

> Says Pizza is going after low-hanging fruit
> Votes El Barto



Your post is bad and you should feel bad

Even El Barto had more to say than just "I don't like how active the thread is"

Post at Zack and Xiahou ^

I think this post is more a point against choxorn than anything else, but there's an outside chance he's not wrong on one of these. I have to mull this, snap judgment not possible here esp when I'm not caught up. This will have to be a body of work read, not a single post read.

I find myself agreeing with most of what Pizza says and getting solid town vibes from him.

Of course, given that this is Pizza, I'm not going to place him in the "definite town" column unless I get a 100% Truescan Reading on him saying he's absolutely, totally townie, and even then I'm still going to have some doubts.

Too generic / cliche. Choxorn needs a close close look from me. Not comfortable with this slot atm.

Some stuff about how he's confused by how Pizza's playing, which is odd, because talk a bunch and engage in weird roleplaying is what Pizza always does.

I don't think I roleplay that often. I need a real reason to roleplay, or else I'm playing as myself. The Askthepizzaguy version of myself anyway.

The rest of the post I agree with but don't know if it's alignment indicative. It could just be choxorn bussing Logic. I feel like choxorn would be comfortable bussing someone for real on day one, because he's one of the few people who would get away with it in the long term, which is the ultimate issue with d1 bussing, it costs you 2 wolves almost always, not just one. They don't have a ton of woofs to spare after that due to the game size.

It just a gut thing at this point, in regards to pizza, I think there's decent potential for pizza to be mafia. I can see why people are town reading him though, he's playing very similarly to XCOM. I don't think it's the same though, so I have reservations.

This is what Manasi does as scum and probably as town.

I can't read El Barto well.

Choxorn for low posts, can't get a read on him. Same for Xiahou.

I feel like logic is different from XCOM, but I need to iso that game and see.

I'd much rather eliminate people with less posts this early in the game tbh. I can get a much better read on the non-bolded people going forward, less so with the others.

Too generic.

This post is easily good for strategic reasons. If you cast a wide net and no real reasons to support anything you say, you have all the options still on the table.

Csargo just clearing hurdles, I don't see depth, and even though he's not known to be super talkative or explanatory as town, I still don't believe these reads. I feel like if he's scum then he can easily distance from any of them this way without contributing to their deaths.

I think Csargo is rand or better correct on the suspects but he's not pushing them in a way that makes me believe he believes it. Too vague and generic even for Csargo. If he's town and everything he's saying is true then I can see how I'm arriving at these conclusions incorrectly, lack of WIM and time, but still. When he's here and posting his beliefs I have to believe he believes them, and I still don't so far.

Csargo and choxorn both feel significantly scummy to me, enough to mention and highlight.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I got a bussy feeling off chox's vote.

CORRECT!

I shouldn't rp here, I'm being serious. Exactly, that was where I was. It seems obvious, even, the more I think about it.

Should we lynch choxorn before Logic? I'm at like 99 percent Logic is scum, I don't want him to get away, but yeah, I think it's a bus.

Even if Logic were somehow town it still looks bad for chox.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I'm lagging behind in my initial read of the missing posts, I'll try to power through them but this is where I'm currently at.

Logic scum
Choxorn scummy
Csargo fairly scummy

I feel like these three are distancing each other.

[Askthepizzaguy]

However I imagine a wolf!cuth to be more concise. To have some sort of point or agenda or direction you'd want to bring across when you post which seems to be lacking... which is probably a terrible reason to start townreading you... but here I am.

I don't know. It could be more valid than I think. I'll look for this when I research Cuth, to see if that's true or not.

I understand the overall sentiment of this post, but I take issue with this portion of it. You know very well that I am not lissa, or "a few others", and personally, after playing with me for as many games as you have, I would think that you'ld know that I don't often do the expected thing. In particular, I really try and avoid getting heated as a wolf, because I feel it strays too close to the kind of emotional manipulation that makes me feel guilty, as opposed to the more fun gleefully lying about what I feel and why I feel it. Your first post is slightly accurate in that I can certainly imagine myself screwing around a little like that as a wolf, but overall I think I'd only do that at MU. After how fast I was caught as scum the one time I randed it on this website, I'm pretty sure that if it happened again, I'd be really frozen and clunky in my posting out of fear of that same kind of rapid collapse.

This post gave me a bad gut feeling, so I stopped and thought about it.

The line "You know very well that I'm not Lissa or "a few others"" with the scare quotes felt wrong. I'm looking for advantage taking or posturing when I read that bit.

I feel like the self meta on his wolf game is true regardless of his alignment, just something he probably doesn't lie about. The last bit in bold feels like it should be true. I know that dp's town game and therefore his more honest self in these games is often characterized by self-doubt. So the basis of what he's saying should all be true. I don't think this is a lock. When one has nearly perfect information, one can be a lot more bold. I think what dp is saying here is based in truth but he could be overplaying his hand if my read is wrong and he were somehow scum here.

If the rest of dp101's iso didn't look townie and I didn't already have a good town read on him I'd think about this more. This post also isn't a tell, as it should also come from town dp101, all I'm saying is I think it could be less conclusive than he's suggesting which worried me for a moment.

I probably wouldn't even be making a comment about this, but I think I want to get it all off my chest in case I'm right on Logic and wrong on dp. Town lean good for dp, town lock, not sure. He's good so long as we're mostly lynching scums. Examine again if we get way off track.

Tl;dr I think he's still town. Just putting in the diligence in case he's giving a better wolf performance than I expect.

I feel dissected. Perhaps a cigarette yuo sexy beast?

Reading through the night. I like my vote on Cuth the only weakness is that i do not know his playstyle. What Slaander is posting suggest towards reading Cuth´s initial ISO. Any other takes on Cuth?

I think he should be town here, but my gut isn't there and I need to solidify that read along with a couple other nulls or former nulls. Look for a decision before start of day 2, as he should have been more reliably readable because of his content and volume by then. Even now, if I had the time.

God I have multiple tabs open. Why this wasn't included in the other post. I have no idea if this was supposed to come before or after the other one.

[Sooh]

Vote count:

Pizza (1): Manasi

Zack (1): Xiahou

Logic (5): Pizza, Dp101, Slaan, Choxorn, Kagemusha

Reinoe (1): Fredwood

Kagemusha (1): Logic

El Barto (1): Csargo

Choxorn (4): Montmorency, Zack, GH, Winston Hughes

Xiahou (1): El Barto

Fredwood (1): Reinoe

Not voting (1): Cuthillius,

With 17 players there are 9 to hammer.


EOD1:

[Csargo]

If you lay out your problems with me concisely ATPG I'll try to respond to them to the best of my current ability.

[Askthepizzaguy]

To everyone who's not comfortable with a logic wagon...

Let's get a Fredwood counterwagon going on right here right now. Fredwood is caught not just in a logical inconsistency, he's also been caught not even continuing to do a re-assessment of the game or push his reads.

I'll give you a quick response as I read. As of now, I can't lend my support to this. I think I'm solidly going to vote inside of choxorn or logic, or csargo as a third option today.

I don't have a big town read on Fredwood, he's in limbo so far. I think we're on more solid ground on several candidates and I think I need time to flesh out Freddy's alignment. I got some false bad reads on him in XCOM and then arrived at a goodish spot on him. Unless he posts something super indicative, I don't think the logic thing is as big a tell as you think. I also am only kind of seeing what you're thinking, I don't know if I can agree it's that much of a logic inconsistency in the first place.

I'll continue to look at Fred and try to resolve his alignment. If I come to the conclusion he's scum and I've had a chance to shoot inside the above three, then if I'm still alive I'll lend support. I just can't chase so many rabbits here, especially when I think I have more catchable and more likely to be scum options.

[reinoe]

I was gonna rally to try and get a wagon going on Fredwood but I'm fine with Chox and Logic getting lynched.

Let's make it truly even.

Vote: Choxorn

[Askthepizzaguy]

Why did you ask zack?

For her, this is probably not significant. If you've ever had a buddy you like to play with, and would defer to when you're not sure, Zack is probably that for Manasi.

I get why you'd think it's odd. This is the exception. If Manasi is scum it's not for this kind of brainwave.

[Askthepizzaguy]

wolfy

Yeah.

Good snap read. Feels correct in terms of both outcome and mindmeld.

choxy so conservative.

Where's the juice, choxy?

Mmm. Plus Zack and reinoe all saw it.

I think choxorn is a must-lynch here. He's always gonna be a question now and too many folks I'm pretty sure are town are coming to that conclusion.

Three scenarios, ordered most-to-least likely by my estimation:

1) pizza is town and correct about Logic

2) pizza is town and wrong about Logic

3) pizza is scum

Above questions re. pizza are due diligence, in recognition that pizza is better at getting townread as scum than as town (esp. on D1).

+1

My level of confidence in pizza's towniness and his read of Logic is a new sensation.

I want to prod at it before it's either confirmed or questioned by the flip.

Phrasing here has ring of truth and feels townie.

What's the likely hood that pizza is scum and logic is town?

What's the likely-hood that pizza is scum and he's bussing his partner into the ground?

The first is impossible and it's still more likely than the second one. I've talked at length about how bad this is. Only a select few can get away with it and I in particular am not one of them, as I don't have late game staying power unless most of my buddies made it to the middlegame and I controlled who lived and died well. My impact on the game has to come soon, and by impact, I mean dead townies. I need me some dead townies. Even if I'm not the one pushing them hard.

If I'm distancing from my partner, it's designed to not cause death, just make me look good later.

I'm seriously more likely to have randed town and secretly been mafia all along than the latter. I believe I told my scum buddies to bus me hard in a recentish game as scum, the one with Monty and El Barto as my partners, but that's because I know I don't have late game staying power and they very much do. And it also would have only worked because I'm so vocally against it as a valid strategy. It was a one time trick that didn't even play out the way I envisioned, and now people will expect such a thing is possible, when it's not a good idea. The rest of that game even proved it was way better to have me alive, so it's still a shitty strategy.

Look I still feel kinda bad (kinda lol as well) about the one time I accidentally killed Monty on day 1 with my lone vote that got a last minute second vote, and then I had to solo the game. I'm really not big on bussing anyone on day one, especially as something I would get the lion's share of the credit/blame for. If he's scum, it's bad that I never get murdered. If he's town, I look like shit and I did it to get rid of Logic, who is easy middlegame lynchbait. If I'm gonna trade myself it's gonna be for someone who isn't a more crucial mislynch down the line. Like dp101, for example, because he clears himself later on.

When I do bus my buddies it's day 2 onward, middlegame or late game. And even then, I almost always choose some buddies and defend them. You might have seen me do this before if you visit many sites. My scum game has a lot of repeating characteristics because they work well. They'll stay that way until they don't.

Pizza is a known busser, but given it's D1 and he's leading the bus, he and his partners individually don't get any advantage (since Pizza would have to die tonight).

This could be possible if Pizza is planning a 180 or the discovery of an urgent new wagon and abandons the Logic wagon. But it would happen so fast it would only be evident retroactively.

Truer words can't be found. I wrote the above before getting to this post, and damn.

Despite having played a fair few games together I don't have a clear meta on Cuth's style.

The main thing I've found consistent between games is his inconsistency within each game. He'll be waxing hard scummy to me, then flip it right around with a moment of keen insight or a burst of plausible mindset progression. And then go right back to looking scummy again.

Cuth is a scummy looking townie and I'd say fair at taking advantage of a mediocre town when he's scum, not necessarily quickly catchable.

I need a really specific thing to latch onto that makes him town. Otherwise he's a tough read and gives lots of false flags.

Like, the confidence I had that he was town in XCOM was partly mechanics related and partly related to a couple really specific brainwaves I felt confident I could bet the farm he couldn't fake. But that combo was needed when he pushed me, because it would have shaken me otherwise.

Think I'll cut this post here and continue.

[Logic]

Got busy with RL, and now have almost 1000 posts. Sheesh. If I survive, I should be more productive on the next day phase.

I'm going to park my vote on Choxorn, because it might mean I survive the day. If I don't, then C'est la vie.

If nothing else, I gotta do the most town thing I can, and save someone I know is a townie (me.)

Unvote: Kage

Vote: Choxorn.

[Sooh]

Vote count:

Pizza (1): Manasi

Zack (1): Xiahou

Logic (5): Pizza, Dp101, Slaan, Choxorn, Kagemusha

Reinoe (1): Fredwood

El Barto (1): Csargo

Choxorn (6): Montmorency, Zack, GH, Winston Hughes, Reinoe, Logic

Xiahou (1): El Barto


Not voting (1): Cuthillius,

With 17 players there are 9 to hammer.


EOD1:

[Askthepizzaguy]

You and others have contested this (mostly indirectly), but Zack feels too free-spirited. He's committing to trivial things, but gliding about the agendas of the day. Only Csargo agrees AFAIK. If Zack flips scum I think it spews you as scum-risk, but if not I think you're a solid town read. Pizza for one believes this kind of calculation only has a place later in the game.

El Barto is kind of a wasted lynch for now, but it would be neutral policy lynch. Similar for Manasi.

Choxorn is edging toward old-school scummy lurking and popping-up.

Xiahou has only his entrance, and as the guy who invited him to play I want to see him play.

For now that sounds like a Logic lynch by default, which as I said is a case Pizza argued well.

I'm actually reading Monty town, so help me.

There are weird non-consensus tinfoils, but he's not flooding the game with them, and a lot of other things he says I can follow, reasoning wise.

I feel like I should be seeing more resistance / objections / tinfoils and weird pushes with bizarre unreadable reasoning that he's massively confident on, if he were scum.

I think he can still do this, but he'd have to be committed to it as a strategy, it doesn't evolve organically from his normal persona.

[Slaan]

That's a long post about why you'd never be scum in this situation... I didnt even bother to read all of it because self-meta analysis is often bad to begin with ;).

I'd agree that you and Logic are never w/w. Imo such a play would require you two to have agreed to in in wolfchat and then I'd expect Logic to still be around... only exception here would be that Logic knows he won't have time to play this game after all and says 'bus me hard' or smth... duno, ppl that know Logic (outside of pizza obviously) would that be a possibility? That's high level tinfoil territory though so maybe only something to consider going into lylo or w/e, just figured I'd share on this front.

You being w and Logic town? Sure why not, 'as wolf I'd never push a mislynch so hard' is not an unheard of defence... even townies often come to that conclusion - it's a valid strategy.

Doesnt mean that I think you are scum, just that I'm not one to buy such defences :)

[Kagemusha]

I sense something between GH and Winston. I cant point my finger into it yet, but i hope others will oit it under scrutiny as well. Maybe its just one of them, but my gut is giving strange vibes. GH can you elaborate concerning Chox and also wgat you think about Winston?

[Slaan]

Got busy with RL, and now have almost 1000 posts. Sheesh. If I survive, I should be more productive on the next day phase.

I'm going to park my vote on Choxorn, because it might mean I survive the day. If I don't, then C'est la vie.

If nothing else, I gotta do the most town thing I can, and save someone I know is a townie (me.)

Unvote: Kage

Vote: Choxorn.

Oh hey its Logic :). Can you tell me what made you townread me? I contributed 0 to the game and was 0 solvy and your explanation left quite a bit to be desired.

Are you gonna be around for the last 3h?

[Kagemusha]

I think Logig is far better lynch then Chox at this point. Lurk for a ehile and wait to get out eith evetual counter wagon. Cheess!

[Askthepizzaguy]

Zack, here are your notable D1 posts from Swords and Sorcery. You seem different somehow. I think you probably are. I have time to figure it out.

Yeah... even just skimming them I feel a strongly different vibe.

Good catch. I agree. I have Zack way way too high.

[Slaan]

I'm actually reading Monty town, so help me.

There are weird non-consensus tinfoils, but he's not flooding the game with them, and a lot of other things he says I can follow, reasoning wise.

I feel like I should be seeing more resistance / objections / tinfoils and weird pushes with bizarre unreadable reasoning that he's massively confident on, if he were scum.

I think he can still do this, but he'd have to be committed to it as a strategy, it doesn't evolve organically from his normal persona.

Can't help you on meta reads. Just that I though Monty was scummy after his first few posts but he bounced back nicely lately... don't have him highly as town but I'd need progression and flips to sort him out further.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Zack I'm kicking you out of my town until further notice. I think Monty is right about you.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Can't help you on meta reads. Just that I though Monty was scummy after his first few posts but he bounced back nicely lately... don't have him highly as town but I'd need progression and flips to sort him out further.

Oh he is going to be among the most difficult reads you ever get.

I can show you some of his scum games if it helps, thing is, he's also got a town game that's slowly evolving towards what you're seeing in this game, and it used to look a lot more like his scum game, which is why I gave up on reading him for a long time.

I think his town game is actually getting separation now.