Chess - Game Thread [Concluded]

[Askthepizzaguy]

Would you want joat_giving!slaan to claim here?

Absolutely.

[Slaan]

Then rip me, only poor VT here. You did name my character already in this thread even btw.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Then rip me, only poor VT here. You did name my character already in this thread even btw.

I imagine so. But then again, it looks so far like the peeps in this game are all well-known grandmasters or the most well known online chess personalities.

The flavor also seems completely random. I'd have never expected Mato to be mafia, by flavor. I think flavor gaming is a bad move anyway.

[Slaan]

I don't even know where to start when it comes to flavoring chess grand masters lol. So yea, that part is NAI but I thought it funny when I reread the thread.... 'no thats me dummy' :D

Only thing solid I think I have for defence is my rather early sus on GH if Logic flipped scum.. doubt I'd do that as mafia ever. Bussing a partner and then using that to sus another partner. I can be cold but not D1 attacking 2 mafia bros cold...

If that helps. I'm out now for today :)

[Slaan]

Oh now I gotta read the monty post brb

[Slaan]

Now I'm diving into Montys post about me :)

[Askthepizzaguy]

Slaan, I need to see your card.

I'm going to press you until I die now. I'm sorry.

[Montmorency]

SLAAN FIRST 24 HOURS

I think the overall picture that Pizza just prioritized was Slaan being relatively soft and bantery overall, but especially with regard to Logic, Zack, and GH. Without having finished D1 on Slaan, or caught up to this apparently exploding thread, @Askthepizzaguy, this is it right? Before I go forward, you think this early content is more telling than IIRC the fairly strong content that came afterward?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

1. Sup --- Zack: *waves hello*
2. Zack: Aren't ellpses a scumtell --- Slaan: Dear god I hope not... I do it all the time :( --- Zack: Yeah...
Zack: What kind of game format does Slaan like?
3. Slaan only played with GH and Fred out of this group, some chance of reading. Cuth and Manasi were in mashes, but not enough familiarity to read with confidence.

[Cuth now has Cuth and Fred in upper half of POE]

4. Yes Zack I don't like mashes, also I won some Champs games

Zack: Yes we here know each other. I'm Zack/Zaccino.

5. Thanks Csargo for clarifying phase lengths, asks if he was in Champs
6. Where are the rules, Zack?

Csargo: Yes I was in Champs and played some MU turbos, don't think ever with you.
Zack: Can't read all posts in mashes, here will be more manageable. Also, here are rules.

7. I hope reading will be easier, though I see you are spammy and Manasi is around too.
8. TY for rules Zack
9. Forum has no good skins.

Winston: I stalked Slaan in Champs after bonding over Civ4.
Zack: Skins.

10. Oh cool Winston.
11.Skins, Zack.

Zack: Winston is McGinty on MU.

12. Civ games, Zack.

Zack: Civ games.
Winston: Champs, Slaan.

13. Champs, Winston.

Pizza: The Grandmaster is here (that's me).
Zack: Champs.
Monty: The Guild is the best skin.

14. Champs, Zack.

Pizza: Champs, Slaan.

15. Champs, Pizza.

Pizza: Champs, Slaan. Chess.

16. Yes, Pizza.

Logic: Civ games, Slaan.
GH: Vote Slaan, welcome to the ORG
Winston: Slaan is town below DP lock town.
Zack: Are any of those serious, Winston?
Monty: Winston strong list.
Pizza: Winston strong list.
Logic: GH, I'm glad you didn't welcome me with a vote in my first game here, like you're doing to Slaan.

[...later...]

Kage: Vote Slaan for hating skins
Manasi: Slaan less comfortable than he should be, likely scum.
Zack: Manasi, have you played with Slaan?
Kage: Slaan doesn't like skins.
Logic: Kage's vote on Slaan is lazy.
Zack: Do not like Kage's post.
Logic: Vote Kagemusha.
Zack: Banter Logic.
Kage: Vote Logic, but I will get Slaan someday.
Zack: What are you doing Kage?
DP: Kage do some work.
Zack: Why joke votes, Kage? Nothing to analyze.
Kage: Here is some analysis...I could not get any reaction from Slaan with my vote, which is too early for me to analyze. Logic seemed to be eager to react to my sudden activity, but thats about it. What have you observed?
Logic: I do not see Slaan as wolf, and Kage's random vote for non-game reasons is a tell.
Kage: Why is Slaan not scum? Meta?
Zack: I will not spoonfeed Kage my observations.
Kage: Why not be helpful?
Winston: Why did I townread Slaan earlier? Nothing substantive; did I think scum would be more relevant?

[SLAAN RETURNS, SOME HOURS AFTER KAGE-LOGIC STUFF BEGAN, WHICH ITSELF WAS AFTER PIZZA OPENED AGAINST LOGIC]

17. Slaan in the house again, will catch up.
18. Can we lynch Pizza for refereences?

Winston: Tempting to lynch Pizza, but no go on D1.
DP: Tempting to lynch Pizza, but he hasn't dropped a tell yet.

19. At least no more chess references if we lynch Pizza.
20. Reinoe, why do you like TMNT, it's not the 90s.
21. Vote Csargo, who is weak for (Csargo's words) "silly little argument" with Zack over OMGUS and suchlike.
22. We should lynch Kage over skins.
23.

I'm currently at this part and I think both are town. Dp101 just seems overall towny in tone and reaction and is trying to figure things out (I really liked post #310 of his) and reinoe seems unreasonable aggressive and obstinate which I hardly see from scum that mostly just want to blend in.

Winston: X-post with Slaan re: DP and Reinoe, Slaan is likely more correct than Winston tinfoil on their being partners.

24. Manasi, why do you think I wasn't comfortable?

Logic: Kage, I read Slaan's ISO and he doesn't feel like someone with PSI. Winston is odd in his response about better not to lynch Pizza, sounds PSI.
Winston: Reinoe is aggressive, yes SLaan, but it depends on the player. E.g. both Zack and Pizza tend to be more aggressive and obstinate by default as scum. And Logic, I was just speaking from experience. Lynching Pizza usually a bad move.

25. Kage how could I react if I wasn't around, there was plenty of other stuff for you to comment on. Zack probably wanted analysis like this anyway.

26. Winston, DP doesn't seem like a player to agree to aggressive posturing with a partner (i.e. Reinoe).

kage: Don't worry about skins. I can't get any scumminess from you but why doesn't Logic want to tell us why he thinks you aren't scum. Maybe he doesnt like to to become too involved in the thread?

[SLAAN BIG READS POST: Expects more from Logic, who isn't really solving - thinks Slaan town "(which makes him scum ;))"; Zack has many posts but not AI, reactions are notable but not AI because I can do similar as either town or scum; GH seems solvey but I know he can fake it so null, has to be judged by success in the day not by posts; Fred is OK, not many posts but focused on solving; Cuth weak pop in]

27.

Alright and I'm done catching up, yay. Overall impressions so far:

1. GH: Seems ok solvey but I know he can fake that as scum so he's just null in my book. Imo he has to be judged by his success in game and not by how towny he seems from posts alone.
2. Csargo: Didnt really like most of what he wrote, an early weird read that he immediatly backpaddled on.. wouldnt mind a lynch here today
3. dp101: Very towny from tone and AtE. From the comments I saw about him here he doesnt seem to be considered as the greatest player so him faking his frustration seems very unlikely
4. Pizza: ... I hope he stops with the rpg stuff or I'd consider vigging him if I had access to a vig.
5. Fredwood: Seems alright so far, not many posts but focused on solving the game.
6. El Barto: no poster
7. Montmorency: ... I'd call him toneally scummish atm.. there were alot of posts that feel off a bit. #119 akwardly trying to insert himself in our nonsense videogame discussion, his push on the 'reaction test' thingy (which I don't understand but I also don't care much), #250 is weird...
8. Zack: Actually don't have anything AI on him despite his many posts. The more memorable stuff was his reactions to being townread but thats just NAI in my book (since I sometimes do the same as both town and scum)
9. Cuthillius: weak pop in
10. Manasi: Manasi seemingly being solvey gives me the creeps. Also weird point made on my, how was I uncomfortable? Cautions sure being mostly w/ new folk but I didnt feel uncomfortable. Maybe a bit drunk but that's neither here nor there
11. Slaan: lock goat
12. Reinoe: The more I think about the more null she is. I don't think it very likely that her antagonizing attitude is wolfy but then again I don't see why not... given that its an alt an all. Maybe someone wants to try out a new strategy.
13. Choxorn: Who?
14. Winston Hughes: Almost same as Zack though I don't recall anything he said in regards to the game.
15. Logic: Didnt start solving really so far, a slight post on Kagemusha, a townread on me (which makes him scum ;))... I expect more!
16. Xiahou: ...
17. Kagemusha: Well his vote on me and then complaining that noone commented on it felt off... curious where he goes from here.

Where this leaves me:
dp101
Fred
GH, Zack, Winston
Csargo, Montmorency


... which isnt much now looking at it. The others are all basically null and I didnt want to put them all in there....

Yap :)

Zack: For now, DP, Fred, and Slaan are the only people I feel good about saying they're above null. Slaan is right that reinoe-DP probably both town.

28. OK Kage not a difficult hurdle to overcome. And Logic did become involved with the thread.

GH: Wary of Slaan who is acting different, but it could be different environment.

29. Ok I put Zack townish for now just for wall posting right after I wallposted!

30. Late response to Kage about ISO concept.

Zack: GH, more detail on kage, slaan, and fred. How is Slaan different? Give meta. And Slaan, wallposting is not AI in itself.

[ZACK-GH EXCHANGE BEGINS THAT WINSTON ULTIMATELY CONSIDERS VERY TOWNY]

31. Very true about wallposting Zack, I just liked seeing the wallposts in the midst of all the small posts. Also, I agree with your content so I upgrade you to a real town read.

GH: Slaan and Fred are both a tier down IMO, though I haven't seen their scum game. I'm comfortable reading Slaan from experience (e.g. Champs). It's hard to explain, but he isn't hitting the tone tells from the other games yet. Give it time and we will be able to tell either way.
Kage: Bad GH, tracking and other new Mafia things are complicated, get off my lawn.

32.

Everyone note it down: If GH mislynches me kill GH :)

Zack: GH, I disagree on Slaan, he seems fine, maybe he's a good wolf but not worth pursuing this early based on just paranoia.
Logic: Why doesn't Kage know what ISO is if he's so experienced?
Csargo: You voted me Slaan? Belated "cool".
Pizza: Manasi is iffy in saying that Slaan is likely scum

33.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Before we continue, answer me this, Slaan.

regardless of alignment.

At one point in the game, it almost looked like you were hinting that you had a vig or a power. Was I imagining things?

You reacted every time I mentioned a vig.

[Slaan]

Before we continue, answer me this, Slaan.

regardless of alignment.

At one point in the game, it almost looked like you were hinting that you had a vig or a power. Was I imagining things?

You reacted every time I mentioned a vig.

Oh yea wanted to be considered a valid NK target to give cover for our real PR's.. as well as a bit of reaction testing on top.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Oh yea wanted to be considered a valid NK target to give cover for our real PR's.. as well as a bit of reaction testing on top.

Slaan, you are like a more likeable version of me.

I was a big fan during g11, and I still am.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I just want to know if I was picking up on something real you were doing to either draw a kill, or be able to counterclaim some townie someday.

Were you hinting you had a power, and did I see that?

[Askthepizzaguy]

@Askthepizzaguy, this is it right? Before I go forward, you think this early content is more telling than IIRC the fairly strong content that came afterward?

The formatting is tricky. I'm unsure how to parse it.

I read all of Slaan's posts up until almost end of day 1 again. What I remember is that he had a very banter-y, slow start, made a comment about Logic to the tune of he didn't really agree with what I was accusing Logic of, I remember the passive aggression at Cuth post, and I remember that he hard bussed Logic and then named 4 other suspects, none were GH or Zack even though he had them in his mild scummy pile earlier than that post.

After that, GH and Zack outed themselves so any content after D1 is not alignment indicative.

[Slaan]

The formatting is tricky. I'm unsure how to parse it.

I read all of Slaan's posts up until almost end of day 1 again. What I remember is that he had a very banter-y, slow start, made a comment about Logic to the tune of he didn't really agree with what I was accusing Logic of, I remember the passive aggression at Cuth post, and I remember that he hard bussed Logic and then named 4 other suspects, none were GH or Zack even though he had them in his mild scummy pile earlier than that post.

After that, GH and Zack outed themselves so any content after D1 is not alignment indicative.

I don't think I had them in my slight scum pile, I had them at neutral iirc. Slight scum was Monty and csargo if I'm not mistaken at the time.

Regarding Logic.. well yea, from my perspective your push was purely a meta read which I can't really agree with.. I mean how, I don't have the meta. I thought logic was fairly alright-ish... except for his townread on me which I just ignored at first for a random rvs read and was more on Csargo at the time. Only when I reread after your push did I realise his read was meant to be seriously and that it made no sense from scum.

[Montmorency]

The formatting is tricky. I'm unsure how to parse it.

I read all of Slaan's posts up until almost end of day 1 again. What I remember is that he had a very banter-y, slow start, made a comment about Logic to the tune of he didn't really agree with what I was accusing Logic of, I remember the passive aggression at Cuth post, and I remember that he hard bussed Logic and then named 4 other suspects, none were GH or Zack even though he had them in his mild scummy pile earlier than that post.

After that, GH and Zack outed themselves so any content after D1 is not alignment indicative.

OK, just by the 24 hours here's a condensed view that might reflect the harshest interpretation of Slaan (easier to give a charitable interpretation of later content, which you did):

0. Slaan recently is affirming the principle that we shouldn't even be seeing multi-scum sussing or distancing in D1 given the Logic threat. My own position is that we should expect controlled distancing, especially after halfway into D1. So keep in mind that this is a bit less than the first half of D1.
1. In opening posts Slaan talks about only playing with GH and Fred out of this group, some chance of reading. Cuth and Manasi were in mashes, but not enough familiarity to read with confidence. Slaan now has Cuth and Fred in upper half of POE. If you're going by the long-term significance route.
2. Slaan almost entirely banters for 16 posts, mostly w/ Zack and Winston, then Logic arrives at the tail end to begin his first round, including getting sussed by Pizza. GH welcome-votes Slaan, and Logic expresses relief that GH didn't do that when it was Logic's first ORG game.
3. Kage votes Slaan as a joke and Manasi thinks Slaan is uncomfortable and scummy. Zack soft-challenges her and Kage. Logic says Kage's vote on Slaan is lazy and begins the voting and other interactions between the two. Logic says Slaan is not scum, Kage asks why, etc.
4. Slaan returns, jokes about lynching Pizza, Winston and DP chuckle sensibly about it, and later Logic attacks Winston as having PIS wrt Pizza (Winston also a bit earlier questioned his own first town read on Slaan).
5. Vote Csargo for discussing OMGUS with Zack in a weird way, and wants to lynch Kage as a joke over skins.
6. Possible buddying with Winston and DP.
7. Slaan gives a big reads post, considers Logic, Zack, and GH in nullish and jokey ways. Zack now finds "DP, Fred, and Slaan are the only people I feel good about saying they're above null."
7. Kage feels no scumminess from Slaan now but wonders why Logic doesn't want to become involved in thread. Slaan counters that Logic is involved in thread, and confident that he can become town for Kage ("easy hurdle").
8. Slaan reads Zack true town after wallposts and other friendly interactions. GH says Slaan and Fred are down a tier but he can't really explain it; Zack disagrees only on Slaan.
9.

Everyone note it down: If GH mislynches me kill GH :)

Pizza, don't go full volcano, we have 45 hours and I'm taking this slow.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Pizza, don't go full volcano, we have 45 hours and I'm taking this slow.

I got one vote and it's not going anywhere.

We have stuff to talk about today, so no quick hammer is needed.

We can afford to discuss who was deep in our town who might not belong there, and this is the only time several of us will have to do so. If we just plunge forward in the POE, which is made up of people I had at least mild town reads on at some point, we're going for the low hanging fruit.

If it is in the low hanging fruit, fine. But if it's not, then we're not fine.

[Montmorency]

I got one vote and it's not going anywhere.

We have stuff to talk about today, so no quick hammer is needed.

We can afford to discuss who was deep in our town who might not belong there, and this is the only time several of us will have to do so. If we just plunge forward in the POE, which is made up of people I had at least mild town reads on at some point, we're going for the low hanging fruit.

If it is in the low hanging fruit, fine. But if it's not, then we're not fine.

I'm complaining about the pace of discussion in the moment. I'm just being a baby.

[Slaan]

0. Slaan recently is affirming the principle that we shouldn't even be seeing multi-scum sussing or distancing in D1 given the Logic threat. My own position is that we should expect controlled distancing, especially after halfway into D1. So keep in mind that this is a bit less than the first half of D1.

True. As long as the Logic wagon wasnt set in stone (and I really feel it wasnt for the first half.. even first 2/3 of D1) and GH/Zack tried hard to get ppl off him and onto others (especially bart imo) I don't think they were distancing with their actual pushes. There might've been low key distancing going on but nothing they really pushed imo. Again, I don't think defending one scum partner thats under alot of pressure and offering the last partner up as an alternative is a thing.

1. In opening posts Slaan talks about only playing with GH and Fred out of this group, some chance of reading. Cuth and Manasi were in mashes, but not enough familiarity to read with confidence. Slaan now has Cuth and Fred in upper half of POE. If you're going by the long-term significance route.

Cuth and Fred are in my PoE for PoE reasons, not because I think them particularly scummy. Only one I find scummy currently is Chox.

2. Slaan almost entirely banters for 16 posts, mostly w/ Zack and Winston, then Logic arrives at the tail end to begin his first round, including getting sussed by Pizza. GH welcome-votes Slaan, and Logic expresses relief that GH didn't do that when it was Logic's first ORG game.

That's what I've learnred to do at the start of the game, just talk a bit to get some sort of reads on ppl... not even AI reads but just how they play, how active they are, how open etc. Nothing that could ever be really put in words or actual gamey reads but to get a feel about ppl... Funny thing though about the GH voting me to welcome me: I noticed he didnt do that to renioe. I thought a bit that it might indicate reinoe scum to not treat her the same way (...) but now it looks kinda the opposite lol :D

3. Kage votes Slaan as a joke and Manasi thinks Slaan is uncomfortable and scummy. Zack soft-challenges her and Kage. Logic says Kage's vote on Slaan is lazy and begins the voting and other interactions between the two. Logic says Slaan is not scum, Kage asks why, etc.

I still don't know why Manasi thought I was uncomfortable.. I asked her but she didnt reply :(.

7. Kage feels no scumminess from Slaan now but wonders why Logic doesn't want to become involved in thread. Slaan counters that Logic is involved in thread, and confident that he can become town for Kage ("easy hurdle").

I don't recall that? I remember saying that Kage wanted the reason why Logic townread me which he did provide (which along the line made me scumread Logic) and Kage apparently didnt see.

8. Slaan reads Zack true town after wallposts and other friendly interactions. GH says Slaan and Fred are down a tier but he can't really explain it; Zack disagrees only on Slaan.

Yep, on top of his activity in the thread he had a good post I could nod along with on D1 is enough for me to put ppl in my townpile. Well my townpile is more often than not 'ppl I'd least want to lynch' ... it also gave me pause yesterday and I didnt think that Zack would flip scum.. oh well :)

Rest isnt something I can comment on... Just figured I add my thoughts/context.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I still don't know why Manasi thought I was uncomfortable.. I asked her but she didnt reply

Well if she was right, she's gonna laugh and laugh at me in post. And I agree.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I still think there is a doctor, a full doctor, because a strongman killer makes no sense against a gift giver / inventor role that will likely give out 1 doctor protection.

It's possible the strongman is just to counter the inventor's doc gift, but that makes such a role for town really really weak.

A one shot doctor is super weak anyway. It's highly unlikely to make any impact on a game.

Strongman only makes sense to counter a full doc.

[Montmorency]

I still think there is a doctor, a full doctor, because a strongman killer makes no sense against a gift giver / inventor role that will likely give out 1 doctor protection.

It's possible the strongman is just to counter the inventor's doc gift, but that makes such a role for town really really weak.

A one shot doctor is super weak anyway. It's highly unlikely to make any impact on a game.

Strongman only makes sense to counter a full doc.

Given that the JOAT also gave out a vig, maybe we're looking at a bulletproof.

Maybe that was just my own impression... considering I did as you've said since N1 basically... just went down the PoE and didnt care much outside that ^^. Well I didnt even vote on D2 iirc, I wanted GH to post something before he is hammered but that never happened...



I didnt do the math when I made my post so chances are this doesnt work out as I've written down. Then again I probably wouldnt mind Bart in F3? It's a tough one between Monty and Bart tbh, Monty is more towny from WIM/solving and his going hard after Zack D1 and not minding the Logic wagon. Bart on the other hand I think is spewed town from the way Zack/GH acted...

I just think it so unlikely that Zack and GH are defending scum!Logic as strong as they were and proposing scum!Bart as an alternative wagon. I mean it's not impossible, nothing is yada yada... but I don't see it happening. If they wanted to bus a partner they couldve just jumped on the Logic wagon early... At some point the Logic issue did become a Point of no return for them imo (couldnt have made a 180° ) but I think it was still very much possible when they went after Barto? At least that's the impression I got, at the time there was 'only' pizza that pushed him hard, dp+ (someone, don't remember.. kage prolly) that sheeped pizza and me on the wagon... which is why GH and Zack tried so hard to save Logic int he first place - it was still very much possible. But then whyyy go after their last scumbuddy? Just seems so unlikely in my book

But if Bart is cleared from a brief timeframe in mid-day, then why isn't Choxorn even more spewed clear?

I made the case of controlled distancing as a strategy. Barto was never really under threat for more than 5 minutes. OTOH, if he (or Chox) were under threat

I think in the end one of Chox/Bart has to be scum, and the other is like camouflage. (This Slaan YOLO needs very serious consideration, since if it's wrong then it's very very wrong)

I said two or three times smth like 'If I had a vig I might vig here' or smth



Uhm yea? I saw his townread but didnt think much of it at the time, thought it was rvs random read or smth. After I read the thread for the first time and Zack said smth like 'I like to mafia read ppl that townread me as this makes me towny' which I think I referenced in my big read list... which I said I also do at times. Then there was this random townread from Logic on me which just seemed random at the time, so I made a funny (and ppl say I dont have fun) comment regarding it referencing Zack's earlier statement about reading early town reads as mafia and moved on not minding it any more than that. My mind was more on Zacks comment on those issues than it was on the townread of Logic himself.

OK, so like Pizza.

Zack said to Winston (off the top of my head) that he is capable of challenging people's town reads of him as mafia because WIFOM.

[Dp101]

I still think there is a doctor, a full doctor, because a strongman killer makes no sense against a gift giver / inventor role that will likely give out 1 doctor protection.

It's possible the strongman is just to counter the inventor's doc gift, but that makes such a role for town really really weak.

A one shot doctor is super weak anyway. It's highly unlikely to make any impact on a game.

Strongman only makes sense to counter a full doc.

Completely missed this earlier, sorry for being repetitive in my doubts.