Chess - Game Thread [Concluded]

[Slaan]

*checks reddit* *checks back here* oh look more questions :D

So why is Chox in your POE? His spew case is just as valid as Barts, in my mind it's better then Bart's. It isn't because he's acting scummier, the entirety of peoples read on Chox is because of what people have said or done to him this game.

Havent gotten to Chox yet and went on him off my memory. I recall his push unlikely to succeed and thus being a good bus target after failing to save Logic for GH/Zack. I also think his posts were scummy on top of that, so that might cloud my judgement... I won't comment on that further till I have 100% reread this thread.

This looks more like directing the vig than a claim or crumb, but it could be a crumb.

Also looks like directing the vig to Barto, but now that it's repeated it feels crumb-y.

Much later, and referring to Zack:

After those two posts, Slaan goes:

Strange post. Why assume mafia have a NK and a vig, especially if you've been hinting you are a vig?

...

Are you an odd night vigilante, Slaan?

I'm not anything but VT my friend. And yes ofc I was keeping the facade of my vig claim alive and I actually thought you were the vig and kinda annoyed with the game or w/e to make those open claims... so that was my natural reaction. It didnt occur to me that you could be fake claiming as well as... well that is rather wonky from my already fake claimed perspective... so I wanted to - as low key as possible - insert that I made a similar claim earlier.

Later on I just let me thoughts flow without much strategy behind them, the vig claming wasnt really something I actively pursued, just mentioned it when it seemed fitting and then did my own thing.. I don't think I had it on my mind when I made this last post you quoted. This post came iirc from my believe that you are the vig so I figured if you are a vig and we have a doc (strongman indicates as much) then mafia also most likely has a vig so this comment was born. I'm still not really familiar with the roles you guys use as my homeforum has a certain set im meta with fixed roles that just get play all the time (one time doc that gets told the NK each night, 2x oneshot vig, cop) so I felt/feel like in dark waters when it comes to closed games such as this....

I realised how stupid this line of inquiry was when I made the post, see the last sentence... but as town I always figure to just say what I think so ppl can follow my process better and it should help them read me town... I got nothing to hide and all that. If this gets me mislynched here I might have to reconsider this policy ^^

Now I'm really off though, bb :)

[Montmorency]

Why would choxorn be protected on night one though. That doesn't make any sense.

Chox shouldn't be the n1 doc target. And the first inventor gift would have been the gun, delivered too late to affect N1.

Unless choxorn is a bulletproof, the only thing that makes sense is that Slaan is hinting that he shot choxorn, when he wasn't protected, and was actually shooting elsewhere.

Which you don't lie about if you're town.

OK, a little hard to follow the logic for Slaan being scum behind these soft-claims, but it sounds like you're drawing on your experience claiming a mafia vig as a town vig, or using it as a way to tease claims from another townie (both?). If so, maybe we should be reading Slaan independently of these considerations because at some point they probably feed more into confirmation bias than offer new information.

So I was like, he can possibly be scum still somehow, therefore he is scum.

Confirmation Bias.

We can nitpick the early game, but I think most people liked his later D1, so if Slaan is scum then all that substance ought to fall apart on closer examination.


Also, how Slaan is representing the wagonomics before EOD, and how distancing vs. bussing applies, and if it reflects on Slaan's analyses at the time.

Much later tonight.

[Slaan]

Why would choxorn be protected on night one though. That doesn't make any sense.

Chox shouldn't be the n1 doc target. And the first inventor gift would have been the gun, delivered too late to affect N1.

Unless choxorn is a bulletproof, the only thing that makes sense is that Slaan is hinting that he shot choxorn, when he wasn't protected, and was actually shooting elsewhere.

Which you don't lie about if you're town.

What? I just faked the entire thing, I never had any shots

[Slaan]

I got ninja'd while watching the baseball game...which comes down to the crux of the issue with Bart being final 3

If Bart is Town and makes it to final 3, town doesn't win. The thing that keeps making me go back and forth is that putting Bart that high makes no sense as either alignment, It's just an odd stance to take on him. Discounting half the spew and holding up the other spew as relevant....all I ask is for consistency in the spew, maybe it all boils down to only being half through your re-read, but still even when re-checking things I remember the context of the thread at the time. Especially if Zack is playing for a Bart before Zack flip.

Idk what else to tell you, that's where I arrived after my first 30 pages.

[Slaan]

Also: Can someone explain to me the difference between 'bussing' and 'distancing'? I just assumed it's the same thing... you know, going after a buddy. I bussing only with intention to actually kill said partner and distancing is not or is there another aspect to it?

Anyway, now really, for the third and final time /out

Slaan has left the building \o/

[Askthepizzaguy]

I got it.

He does have a vig power and the doc has been successful.

There's no way he as vanilla townie claims that:

I'm also really wondering which roles there will be in this game in the end. Doc is clear on our side... but I imagine a vig would've vigged Chox or someone last night. Maybe Winston was vigged from mafia and their NK on pizza failed? What other roles could there be in a game such as this? (my homeboard only uses the same boring roles over and over and they don't seem likely)... don't speculate on this, don't think it helps town... just things I wonder.

This is it, this is the damning evidence.

Nooooooo way in hell does he suggest this many kills are in play unless he's eventually going to claim town vigilante.

But EVEN if he was going to claim town vigilante, he's got to explain eventual scummy kills. So in lie-world, there's also a scum vig.

There's no way to account for all the missing kills at this point, so that plan has to be abandoned.

But he's claiming in this post there are 3 kills in play, two more than the known mafia nightkill, and he never had the joat's vig shot, because I did.

There wouldn't be a town vigilante in this game unless the mafia had one. And he could always claim to be a limited vig.

Since he knew that the town had a doctor, he could easily account for missing kills.

But from a vanilla townie standpoint, he should never be claiming a Third Kill.

That's it. That's the proof in your own words, Slaan.

You were gonna claim a limited vig and frame choxorn with it. But you had to back off because that's too many kills in play that we haven't seen yet.

[Fredwood]

Idk what else to tell you, that's where I arrived after my first 30 pages.

I'm just sort of talking out loud to myself hoping someone smarter tells me I'm dumb one way or the other. I read EOD1 at least twice but I probably have a harder time divorcing my memory of the context of the thread because I was observing it all passively but was actively there for the actual "bart" push....I need to stop self-arguing points for your defense damnit.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Vanilla townie fake claiming having a shot claims there could be a missing kill that night, but not two missing kills.

You had to actually be a vigilante to even CLAIM there was three kills.

When you can no longer claim town vigilante, you are sweeping this one under the rug and going with vanilla townie.

None of your actual shots, if any were successful, were on actual suspects.

Since you are a vigilante and claimed not to be, you're mafia, Slaan.

[Askthepizzaguy]

The jig is really up now. No vanilla townie claims there were three kills that night. Never happening.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Fredwood, Monty, check my logic.

I've got him. There's literally no way to explain that.

[Fredwood]

Also: Can someone explain to me the difference between 'bussing' and 'distancing'? I just assumed it's the same thing... you know, going after a buddy. I bussing only with intention to actually kill said partner and distancing is not or is there another aspect to it?

Anyway, now really, for the third and final time /out

Slaan has left the building \o/

Bussing is pushing your teammate with the intention of getting him killed. Distancing is pushing your teammate when death is not immediately on the line but would look good if either of you would flip before the other.

[Montmorency]

I got it.

He does have a vig power and the doc has been successful.

There's no way he as vanilla townie claims that:



This is it, this is the damning evidence.

Nooooooo way in hell does he suggest this many kills are in play unless he's eventually going to claim town vigilante.

But EVEN if he was going to claim town vigilante, he's got to explain eventual scummy kills. So in lie-world, there's also a scum vig.

There's no way to account for all the missing kills at this point, so that plan has to be abandoned.

But he's claiming in this post there are 3 kills in play, two more than the known mafia nightkill, and he never had the joat's vig shot, because I did.

There wouldn't be a town vigilante in this game unless the mafia had one. And he could always claim to be a limited vig.

Since he knew that the town had a doctor, he could easily account for missing kills.

But from a vanilla townie standpoint, he should never be claiming a Third Kill.

That's it. That's the proof in your own words, Slaan.

You were gonna claim a limited vig and frame choxorn with it. But you had to back off because that's too many kills in play that we haven't seen yet.

But why does he need to frame Choxorn if he's in the POE? How does that happen?

If he doesn't know there's a Santa role then he can't expect there ever to be an opportunity to claim anything.

Vanilla townie fake claiming having a shot claims there could be a missing kill that night, but not two missing kills.

You had to actually be a vigilante to even CLAIM there was three kills.

When you can no longer claim town vigilante, you are sweeping this one under the rug and going with vanilla townie.

None of your actual shots, if any were successful, were on actual suspects.

Since you are a vigilante and claimed not to be, you're mafia, Slaan.

Aha, so you're claiming that he actually hit a protection tonight. But - we don't know that without a doctor claim?

And if a doctor doesn't claim, then we shouldn't lynch because a town doctor should absolutely claim if it clear a townie and saves them from lynch?

That makes it sound like either way he's town, but no - it means hinging so much on this assumption doesn't work.

[Fredwood]

Fredwood, Monty, check my logic.

I've got him. There's literally no way to explain that.

It looks bad?, I mean I'm already waffling... I'll have to think some more just in case I'm just being blinded by your brilliance and fancy pants. (In other words I feel that might be a little bit over my head wrt to PR hunting providing scummy kill cover, where I come from everyone is a Power Role)

[Dp101]

The jig is really up now. No vanilla townie claims there were three kills that night. Never happening.

So wait, are you saying we had an additional doctor as well as the gifter? Because that's the only way this past night's results make sense from my perspective, and it seems like we have a few too many roles in that situation (or at least, it feels weird to me for there to be 2 protective roles of the same alignment).

[Montmorency]

Wait, DP claimed, OK.

Well, that's consistent, but... I need to think.

[Fredwood]

I think Pizza is playing 20 moves ahead of us already and I'm racing to catch up.

[Askthepizzaguy]

So wait, are you saying we had an additional doctor as well as the gifter? Because that's the only way this past night's results make sense from my perspective, and it seems like we have a few too many roles in that situation (or at least, it feels weird to me for there to be 2 protective roles of the same alignment).

Yes, there is a full doc!

Shit I need to be able to explain this.

Ok, deep breath. There are two ways of explaining Slaan's posts. Check this logic.

[Dp101]

Idk, maybe it makes sense for there to have to be a doctor for a one-shot strongman to come into play, because gifts being one shot only (and presumably non-repeatable) makes it so unlikely that strongman would actually make a difference that it would be basically pointless if gifts were the only means of doccing someone.

[Dp101]

Yes, there is a full doc!

Shit I need to be able to explain this.

Ok, deep breath. There are two ways of explaining Slaan's posts. Check this logic.

Oh no, I get what you mean about predicting 3 kills and 2 prevented being scummy in this way, I was just saying that last night's results mean that we 100% have to have a full doc and I was not completely certain of that.

[Montmorency]

Idk, maybe it makes sense for there to have to be a doctor for a one-shot strongman to come into play, because gifts being one shot only (and presumably non-repeatable) makes it so unlikely that strongman would actually make a difference that it would be basically pointless if gifts were the only means of doccing someone.

Idk, maybe it makes sense for there to have to be a doctor for a one-shot strongman to come into play, because gifts being one shot only (and presumably non-repeatable) makes it so unlikely that strongman would actually make a difference that it would be basically pointless if gifts were the only means of doccing someone.

Bulletproof? Crimson snow in XCOM was like the only BP, and Mafia had to hit him twice, so it works. Also, all their kills were strongman (because of Winston), but that was a special balance characteristic...

If it's 1X Strongman and a full doctor, then it's like there's not much point to having extra 1X protection.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Universe 1: Pizza is wrong and Slaan is a vanilla townie.

He had been hinting on d1 that he was gonna shoot choxorn or pizza. Later, after the night phase, he claims if he was a town vig he would have shot choxorn last night, which then means that choxorn was protected somehow.

He still has choxorn as scummy, but he never claims and says that he shot choxorn and that choxorn survived. The doc also wouldn't be protecting there, so we know since this is vanilla townie world, he never shot choxorn. That explains the lack of choxorn dying.

But, we also have Slaan claiming the mafia have a vigilante shot on Winston and a full mafia kill on Pizza in that same post.

So, at the time of that post, Slaan the vanilla townie was claiming there were 3 shots in play, not 2. A really odd thing to ever claim, when only 1 kill happened that night.


Universe 2: Slaan is a Sith Lord

He had been planning to claim a limited town vig at one point, and was crumbing who he supposedly shot.

He wasn't claiming, but if it came down to it, he could claim that he crumbed shooting choxorn, and then it would be weird why choxorn survived. Maybe he's a mafia scumbag with a bulletproof, for example.

He could counterclaim any townie who claimed vigilante too, with this plan.

Ok.

But, since he's scum and knows scum team has a vig (which is him, it can only be him now) he claims there were 3 kills, only 2 successful.

One of which was on a protected target, which is why we didn't see it.

Only the scum vigilante or a town vigilante should know there were three kills last night, or even think to claim such a thing.

Since he has disavowed being a town vigilante (as well he should, he hasn't shot anyone for real since choxorn wouldn't have been protected n1)

He must be town vanilla or scum vigilante.

If he's town vanilla, why does he claim there were three kills, only 1 of which was visible?

This was an aborted fake claim attempt while there were still scumbags alive that he could trade himself away for to help them survive a round.

But no, he can't do that anymore, so he has to abandon the plan.

That's the story. He's not vanilla townie and he's not a town vig. His own words hang him.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Oh no, I get what you mean about predicting 3 kills and 2 prevented being scummy in this way, I was just saying that last night's results mean that we 100% have to have a full doc and I was not completely certain of that.

We do, otherwise he wouldn't have blundered and guessed/claimed 3 kills.

Our town doctor was successful on night one!

[Fredwood]

huh...

what does crumbling mean?

[Askthepizzaguy]

Why would the mafia shoot both Pizza and Winston on night one?

Because the doc can only cover one of us!

[Askthepizzaguy]

huh...

what does crumbling mean?

If I had a vig shot, I would have shot choxorn last night.

If I got a night zero cop scan on a vanilla townie, it was probably on dp101, lock town.

Not claims. Just posts that mean if you do eventually claim later, you can say you left a crumb.

If you flip, people go back and read your posts to see what you did.

Town power roles, vanillas, and scums often crumb. It's leaving the info without hard claiming it.

Think of it as a super duper soft claim you can easily retract.

[Montmorency]

Universe 1: Pizza is wrong and Slaan is a vanilla townie.

He had been hinting on d1 that he was gonna shoot choxorn or pizza. Later, after the night phase, he claims if he was a town vig he would have shot choxorn last night, which then means that choxorn was protected somehow.

He still has choxorn as scummy, but he never claims and says that he shot choxorn and that choxorn survived. The doc also wouldn't be protecting there, so we know since this is vanilla townie world, he never shot choxorn. That explains the lack of choxorn dying.

But, we also have Slaan claiming the mafia have a vigilante shot on Winston and a full mafia kill on Pizza in that same post.

So, at the time of that post, Slaan the vanilla townie was claiming there were 3 shots in play, not 2. A really odd thing to ever claim, when only 1 kill happened that night.

And he's not claiming, just speculating?

Universe 1: Pizza is wrong and Slaan is a vanilla townie.

He had been hinting on d1 that he was gonna shoot choxorn or pizza. Later, after the night phase, he claims if he was a town vig he would have shot choxorn last night, which then means that choxorn was protected somehow.

He still has choxorn as scummy, but he never claims and says that he shot choxorn and that choxorn survived. The doc also wouldn't be protecting there, so we know since this is vanilla townie world, he never shot choxorn. That explains the lack of choxorn dying.

But, we also have Slaan claiming the mafia have a vigilante shot on Winston and a full mafia kill on Pizza in that same post.

So, at the time of that post, Slaan the vanilla townie was claiming there were 3 shots in play, not 2. A really odd thing to ever claim, when only 1 kill happened that night.

Why would a solo scum want to claim vig? He has to die soon after.

But, since he's scum and knows scum team has a vig (which is him, it can only be him now) he claims there were 3 kills, only 2 successful.

One of which was on a protected target, which is why we didn't see it.

One successful, since you're alive.

If he's town vanilla, why does he claim there were three kills, only 1 of which was visible?

Why not, if he's town? I'm certain townies have speculated on there being 3 kills before.

This was an aborted fake claim attempt while there were still scumbags alive that he could trade himself away for to help them survive a round.

Why would "lock town" Slaan trade himself to keep Zack and/or GH alive for another day?

?????????????????????????

[Askthepizzaguy]

If the full town doctor was protecting me on night one, they stopped that kill.

That's why Slaan suggested that there was a kill on both me and winston on night one.

He has perfect information syndrome. He outed himself as the scum vig in that post.

He went too far in claiming both pizza and winston were shot night one.

No vanilla townie should ever have said that.

He can only know that if he's scum or if he's a town vigilante. And he hard claimed not being one.

That's GG

[Askthepizzaguy]

Why would a solo scum want to claim vig? He has to die soon after.

He was not solo at the time. He had teammates, or did we kill them so fast you forgot? :P

The answer to your question is, the same reason they claim cop sometimes. To survive a lynch (even if only one lynch) and then use the doctor as an excuse as to why they still live.

But this game don't have a cop. So he wasn't gonna crumb cop, right. So he crumbed vig instead, anticipating the game had one.

They have only very limited use out of claiming doctor. Doctors always have to die. If he can claim vig at the critical moment, he can draw a lynch away from someone and onto someone else. Particularly, the town vigilante, if they suspect the game has one.

Why not, if he's town? I'm certain townies have speculated on there being 3 kills before.

With one death? I don't think so.

Why would "lock town" Slaan trade himself to keep Zack and/or GH alive for another day?

They were not lock scum at the time. He was still arguing until Zack flipped that Zack was town, for example. Many people still had skeptical face.

All of those plans got shot to hell when Zack did.

[Montmorency]

Someone other than Pizza explain why Slaan was claiming D2 rather than idly speculating, why the specific fact of suggesting a town vig and a mafia vig on top of mafia NK is a tell given the events of D2, N2, D3, N3, and how any variation of this could have been a plausible strategy following the events of D1.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I get it pizza. And I agree (with some minor caveats)... but we shouldnt think us victorious just yet. Suprising things always happen and I wouldnt be super suprised if there is in the end only one wolf under GH/manasi/chox... just because I've very very rarely solved the game after D1 in my 7 years of playing (and arguably when it worked it was mostly lucky guessing ^^). I like rein as town for probably all the wrong reason and would have to check her out again at some point, same with most others. Thing is the ISO function here is kinda annoying and makes me not want to do it...

It's weird, I'm kinda trapped in a game here that's between my homesite and MU. Few good tools to use (same as my homsite) but activity similiar to MU which makes rereading stuff annoying. Also I see a clear path to be taken rn which gives me even less motivation to go and check ppl out again.

I'm also really wondering which roles there will be in this game in the end. Doc is clear on our side... but I imagine a vig would've vigged Chox or someone last night. Maybe Winston was vigged from mafia and their NK on pizza failed? What other roles could there be in a game such as this? (my homeboard only uses the same boring roles over and over and they don't seem likely)... don't speculate on this, don't think it helps town... just things I wonder.

Would Sooh tell us if there is 3p around?

This post was from before GH even died. on Day 2.

GH and Zack hadn't flipped yet, and they were both stalling to figure out some way of not dying.

Meanwhile, Slaan was putting forward a theory about 3 shots, 2 of which were on Winston and Pizza.

This would explain later on in the game why there was no scum vig visible that night.

But then GH got run over by a truck and then Zack got blasted. This plan had to be abandoned, thus the vanilla townie claim today.

He couldn't claim gift giver either, that's an instant loss.

But no vanilla townie can claim a missing kill that night that wasn't his own missing shot.

By simple deduction, if he's not vanilla and he's not a townie vig, and he knows the scums have a vig, who is Slaan?