Chess - Game Thread [Concluded]

**Montmorency** · 10-12-2017, 04:06

We have most of two days, and the only possible alternative right now is Barto, whom we haven't sniffed at yet.

Unvote: Barto

Vote: Slaan

Have some rest and we'll return to the whole mess the next RL day.

Though I kind of feel that there is no logical way for Slaan to clear himself if Pizza's reasoning is somehow valid.

**Askthepizzaguy** · 10-12-2017, 04:15

LMFAO

I am officially so crazy sounding that even Monty cannot follow my logic.

ACHIEVEMENT. UNLOCKED!!!

**Csargo** · 10-12-2017, 04:22

I don't get why the vig claim would have protected GH/Zack from death, so I don't really follow that.

I do think you're right though, because that paragraph was a huge leap of speculation based on absolutely nothing in the thread on Slaan's part, which just doesn't make sense at all unless you have information everyone else isn't privy too.

**Dp101** · 10-12-2017, 04:25

Originally Posted by Choxorn

A. He can't protect himself
B. I thought the chances were pretty high he'd be the N2 Kill, and I figured I'd give it to another one of my townreads who I thought was more likely to survive
C. I can't give someone more than one gift

Odd, I was told that there were no restrictions on who I could target, so I thought that A wasn't a factor. C makes a lot of sense though.

**Dp101** · 10-12-2017, 04:26

Originally Posted by Csargo

I do think you're right though, because that paragraph was a huge leap of speculation based on absolutely nothing in the thread on Slaan's part, which just doesn't make sense at all unless you have information everyone else isn't privy too.

Ehh, I don't think NK speculation alone is scummy, I've done it as both alignments whenever there's a kill or results that I didn't expect. It's just that the number of kills predicted after only one death is a little odd.

**Csargo** · 10-12-2017, 04:46

Originally Posted by Dp101

Ehh, I don't think NK speculation alone is scummy, I've done it as both alignments whenever there's a kill or results that I didn't expect. It's just that the number of kills predicted after only one death is a little odd.

Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

**Askthepizzaguy** · 10-12-2017, 04:48

Originally Posted by Csargo

I don't get why the vig claim would have protected GH/Zack from death, so I don't really follow that.

I do think you're right though, because that paragraph was a huge leap of speculation based on absolutely nothing in the thread on Slaan's part, which just doesn't make sense at all unless you have information everyone else isn't privy too.

Here's the scenario I see.

D2, Logic just got hung and GH looks bad and Zack looks bad. He'd already laid the ground work on day one and all the way into day 2 about him possibly having a vig shot. He suggested that shot was on choxorn, who had voted logic and also had GH and Zack as scummy at various times.

At that point, choxorn becomes super valuable to mislynch, before Gh and Zack flip.

After they flip, he's much less gettable. So, they'd need to do this on day 2, or on day 3. It also becomes much less plausible after that, because if he claims to have shot choxorn and nothing happened, why'd he wait so long to say so?

So it basically only ever happens on day 2 or day 3.

Meanwhile, he says Zack is town but GH is not.

Then, he and zack and gh decide whether to pull the gambit or not. Thus the stalling most of the day.

They see the writing on the wall as the wagon gets bigger and everyone finds him scummy.

At that point, the danger is if Slaan pulls this claim out, it's gonna look like he's deliberately trying to save GH. The moment has passed.

He could try it again on Day 3, mayyyybe.

That night, Zack dies. It's too late. The plan cannot work now.

Strongman that flipped means we have a town doctor, and he can only speculate on a third kill in his crumb post, with 2 missing kills in a single night, if he knows there was a missing kill. He has to be a town vig or a scum vig.

We have to have a town doctor, otherwise the strongman makes absolutely no sense. It's going to be used against a gifted 1 shot doc, that's overkill. It makes the gift giver even weaker and it's already generally a weak role.

Its value is mostly in confirming itself as an existing role.

**El Barto** · 10-12-2017, 05:10

I have +50 posts to catch up with, but choxie schmoxie was the counterwaggon proposed by GH and also Zack and I did point it out. I don't think either of us is mafia.

**El Barto** · 10-12-2017, 05:56

Originally Posted by Choxorn

Hardclaim: Gift Giver

Oh, this changes everything.

Originally Posted by Fredwood

I think you're both overvaluing and undervaluing the spew and planning too many steps ahead.

The lynch should always be Bart or Chox today in my mind. I don't see any scenario or any reason to even consider of lynching outside of that.

Hindsight's a female dog, innit?

Originally Posted by Montmorency

BTW: Vote: El Barto

I believe in chess this is known as "forking".

If forking is what is usually marked as ??, then sure.

**El Barto** · 10-12-2017, 06:07

OK, in a fit of townie-itis I've collected all the EOD tallies and colour-coded them for your convenience, as the TropeCo catalogue recommends. The interlocking claims of choxie schmoxie, pizzaman the cheesy poster and Dp101 make them all-but-town i.e. unbolded blue; bolded blue are people I know are town because the GM has said so.

Originally Posted by Sooh

THAT'S A LYNCH!

Pizza (1): Manasi

Zack (2): Xiahou, Dp101

Logic (6): Pizza, Slaan, Choxorn, Kagemusha, Winston Hughes, Csargo

Reinoe (1): Fredwood

Choxorn (3): Montmorency, Reinoe, Logic

Xiahou (1): El Barto

Dp101 (2): GH, Zack

Not voting (1): Cuthillius,

With 17 players there are 9 to hammer.

Standby for flip.

Originally Posted by Sooh

THAT IS A HAMMER!

GH (8): Montmorency, El Barto, Xiahou, Kagemusha, Pizza, Dp101, Csargo, Reinoe,

Choxorn (1): Zack,

Not voting (6): Cuthillius, Slaan, Choxorn, GH, Fredwood, Manasi,

With 15 players there are 8 to hammer.

(Zack is killed in the Night Phase, then Manasi implodes and becomes a policy lynch)

Originally Posted by Sooh

THAT'S A HAMMER!!

Manasi (7): Pizza, Slaan, Montmorency, El Barto, Cuthillius, Dp101, Csargo,

Not voting (5): Choxorn, Fredwood, Manasi, Xiahou, Reinoe

With 12 players there are 7 to hammer.

Feel free to wring tour brains with patterns. I'm spent.

**El Barto** · 10-12-2017, 06:08

Originally Posted by Fredwood

Originally Posted by Montmorency

I guess it wasn't PIS.

Plot induced stupidity?

Perfect Information Syndrome.

**Fredwood** · 10-12-2017, 06:11

Originally Posted by El Barto

Oh, this changes everything.

Hindsight's a female dog, innit?

If forking is what is usually marked as ??, then sure.

A plus job of catching up.

**Sooh** · 10-12-2017, 06:19

Vote count:

Slaan (2): Pizza, Montmorency,

Not voting (8): Choxorn, Fredwood, Xiahou, El Barto, Cuthillius, Dp101, Csargo Slaan,

With 10 players there are 6 to hammer.

EOD4:

**El Barto** · 10-12-2017, 06:19

Originally Posted by Fredwood

A plus job of catching up.

Well, I had about eight posts copied in notepad and I suddenly ran into choxorn hard-claiming so I threw most of them out.

**Dp101** · 10-12-2017, 06:20

Originally Posted by El Barto

OK, in a fit of townie-itis I've collected all the EOD tallies and colour-coded them for your convenience, as the TropeCo catalogue recommends. The interlocking claims of choxie schmoxie, pizzaman the cheesy poster and Dp101 make them all-but-town i.e. unbolded blue; bolded blue are people I know are town because the GM has said so.

(Zack is killed in the Night Phase, then Manasi implodes and becomes a policy lynch)

Feel free to wring tour brains with patterns. I'm spent.

Forgot to include Reinoe in blue.

**Choxorn** · 10-12-2017, 06:23

Originally Posted by Dp101

Odd, I was told that there were no restrictions on who I could target, so I thought that A wasn't a factor. C makes a lot of sense though.

Now that I think about it, I don't remember any restrictions on self-protection either, so maybe I just assumed that because that's how I'm used to doctor roles working.

**Askthepizzaguy** · 10-12-2017, 06:34

Doctors can self protect on some sites I've been to. But on most, it's assumed that they cannot, or it's even written into the role that they can't.

**Slaan** · 10-12-2017, 07:02

Good morning and holy crap is Pizza going off the deep end... let me tell you why his case is (sorry for the language) moronic....

1) He assumes I'm mafia vig, why tf would the mafia vig build up to fake claiming the town vig? Like why. It draws attention and questions when weird, non consensus night kills happen and as mafia vig I want non consensus night kills.... why would I ever bread crumb this? I could maybe understand the argument for another mafia to breadcrumb instead of the actual vig or smth but this ???. Maybe its possible a lategame move towards lylo or smth but D1?
2) My 'theory of 3 shots' wasnt a theory of 3 shots. It was me saying 'we apparently don't have a vig as a vig would've vigged Chox'.. at least that's what I thought. I then, it was late-ish in D2, went wondering about PR's in general... I remembered Sooh saying there'd be 'some PR's' in this game so I wondered what the could be. We saw the first day and first night pass and nothing unusual happen... ok a strongman flipped which also meant a doc around most likely but that's about it? A vig being somewhere made sense to me... so I blindly speculated. Why would I speculate as fucking mafia this way? This perfect information syndrom bs is just that, bs. I literally just finished in a huge experimental game 'Orchestrated Chaos' where I as mafia had tons of informations that V's didnt have and I didnt spill a thing over the almost 3 weeks this game went on (knew of like 70% of all abilities from the get go) and now I sit here and TMI such a basic thing? I'm actually considering this to be insulting on some level...
3) Why the

would I ever vig Winston of all ppl in N1? I didnt have a read on him at all at this point, I would've killed off one of my townreads so I could develop Winston however I saw fit. Why kill of a null from my pile instead of Kage of dp? Makes no sense
4) What the

did I do other than that? So I'm a vig... ok. Not a regular vig, no additional kills N2 or N3. Odd night vig? But then I'd have to have vigged myself last night... that doesnt quite seem likely. One shot vig? Then why _THE

_ would I vig in N1? I was in zero danger, I was part of the town core. Keep it holstered, play the game quietly etc etc... you know, what I'd have done if I was actual part of mafia. Why waste it N1 on Winston?

This entire case is Pizza getting unsecure because Manasi didnt work out, getting called out for it and now and needing to find someone he misread previously to push today to cement his hero image... which will only take a deeper dive after he mislynched me over this bs case.

It has had its ups though, Monty is now secured in my town pile. He stood up for me early and asked the correct questions, as mafia he could've just been happy pizza threw out one of his cores... (though his vote on me in the end doesnt look too good.. why make that if he wants to reconsider.......... >_>)

Anyway, I also believe Chox claim.. at least until there is a counter claim and if that doesnt come forth today he is locked... or the actual gift giver is an idiot. I doubt the second possiblity though, Chox was in no immediate danger so yea. Just one question @Choxorn : What did you do N1?

With all those infos let us recheck all players:

2. Csargo - PoE, dont see why not
3. Dp101 - lock town still, spewed hard town imo
4. Pizza - misguided town or some weird 3p which I don't see us ever defeating so w/e. After him going after me like this I was wondering if he could ever be mafia but he was too obsessed the entire game... mafia tends to not be obsessed but calculating and he wasnt.
5. Fredwood - PoE, but need to read further than page 30
6. El Barto - ... guess PoE after all the backlash I got from my townreading him, will be reviewed with my rereading.
7. Montmorency - lock town after everything imo. Spew quite good and him defending me looks good as well.
9. Cuthillius - PoE, don't see why not at this point
11. Slaan - super sith lord mafia vig
13. Choxorn - lock town
16. Xiahou - I'm SERIOUSLY gonig to be me if Xiahou ends up being the last scum. That would be bm as fuck essentially not playing at this point as scum.

So yea, enjoy that post. Sorry if I was getting a bit mean at times... I don't mind being scumread over stuff generally but if someone calls me out for essentially mechanical mistakes I just can't help myself. I would never even start such a weird long term strategy as mafia.. because why? Just get townread and ride it out...? Why risk ppl asking 'why are you still alive after claiming vig' or whatever bs.. it makes. no. sense. And that annoys me, that pizza still put on his helmet and went full force... because his case only makes sense if he considers me an imbecil at mafia and I'm not. Check the MU award nomination thread where I was nominated for my Orchestrated Chaos mafia play.....

Don't know what else I could do. If you mislynch me I'll haunt you from the graveyard and root for the last mafia ;)

**Slaan** · 10-12-2017, 07:04

Also this post wasnt checked for grammar or spelling or any other errors (not that it matters, my english has been shite here so far... once said 'just've' instead of 'should've' <_<) so sorry for anything that slipped through.

**Slaan** · 10-12-2017, 07:05

Just glancing over it... I'm not gonna be 'me' if Xiahou ends up being last scum... I'm going to be mad. MAD

**Slaan** · 10-12-2017, 07:06

Gonna be off to work now, bb

**Fredwood** · 10-12-2017, 08:15

Originally Posted by Slaan

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

This makes less sense then Pizza's post.

Luckily there's some things that are bad regardless of the "did he crumb or didn't he crumb" debate which even my pea brain can comprehend.

First Winston was a universal Town Read Day 1, even by you.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

That was 3 hours before Day 2 opened. Post #1224 So I know there's some short term memory loss that you just forget everything that happened in the thread while you're re-reading, but you should remember that you had him lock cleared before his flip. Then again, Maybe not

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

. I mean I guess you could argue that you'd remember why you murdered him, but that means if you're town that it wasn't a real read, which makes less sense then you forgetting that post.

You're lock clearing Monty now (don't get used to it Monty he'll cruelly retract the lock clear status in a day or two

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

) for defending you...he's the only person other then Pizza voting for you. Also what spew spewed Monty clear? Monty was in everyone's "seems like he's trying but we can't give him full credit" pile, I could check but I think you're the first to claim that he was spewed clear. Seems like you missed his vote and are still trying to appease him and his work ethic.

I mean the only other explanation other then scum is that you use the words spew and lock town entirely too much.

**Fredwood** · 10-12-2017, 08:26

I also would like to point out, WRT to your night one post where you put Winston on the same level of Pizza and Kage that you had DP in the same category before the GH flip.

There was reason to town read DP then, and there's never a scenario where you vote out DP before GH. To your admission DP was lock clear because of GH and Zack spew, yet you had DP as top tier town a full day before GH's flip, whichmay be a difference in process, there's no reason to top tier town him until after the GH flip, he easily solvable but not confirmed.

**Fredwood** · 10-12-2017, 08:30

Originally Posted by Fredwood

I also would like to point out, WRT to your night one post where you put Winston on the same level of Pizza and Kage that you had DP in the same category before the GH flip.

There was reason to town read DP then and there's never a scenario where you vote out DP before GH. Most of your stance today was that DP is lock clear because of GH and Zack spew, yet you had DP as top tier town a full day before GH's flip, which may be a difference in process, there's no reason to top tier town him until after the GH flip. Easily solvable but not confirmed

EPWIOP, migraines and insomnia make good words.

**Askthepizzaguy** · 10-12-2017, 08:43

Originally Posted by Slaan

Good morning and holy crap is Pizza going off the deep end... let me tell you why his case is (sorry for the language) moronic....

1) He assumes I'm mafia vig, why tf would the mafia vig build up to fake claiming the town vig? Like why. It draws attention and questions when weird, non consensus night kills happen and as mafia vig I want non consensus night kills.... why would I ever bread crumb this? I could maybe understand the argument for another mafia to breadcrumb instead of the actual vig or smth but this ???. Maybe its possible a lategame move towards lylo or smth but D1?

If you need to counterclaim a vig, or to claim you had a one shot vig and tried to vig someone, is leaving something visible in the thread. Otherwise when you claim, you don't have anything visible in your posts all game long to support it. Much like when scums claim cop in cop games, their posts have to match their eventual claim in a believable way. One can't for example say that X is scummy and then later claim that they cop checked them and found them to be innocent. The story doesn't match.

If you ever claim vig, for counterclaim or simply claiming-to-cause-mislynch purposes, having something that matches the story is the only way it is bought.

The play is only good for one lynch, just like counterclaiming a cop. Once a flip happens, the jig is up.

A vig is no different in that regard. It has the exact same claim utility. How often do you play with vigs? You've never seen someone fake claim vig? You even said you were faking crumbing a vig here, so obviously you've seen people fake vig claims before.

Acting surprised that someone would use it as a strategy as an actual vig, is not just iffy, it's unbelievable.

2) My 'theory of 3 shots' wasnt a theory of 3 shots. It was me saying 'we apparently don't have a vig as a vig would've vigged Chox'.. at least that's what I thought.

Lets go back to what you wrote in black and white.

Originally Posted by Slaan

I'm also really wondering which roles there will be in this game in the end. Doc is clear on our side... but I imagine a vig would've vigged Chox or someone last night. Maybe Winston was vigged from mafia and their NK on pizza failed? What other roles could there be in a game such as this? (my homeboard only uses the same boring roles over and over and they don't seem likely)... don't speculate on this, don't think it helps town... just things I wonder.

You were saying, by context, either you believed that town didn't have a vig, or they would have vigged choxorn.

What's missing then is the leap between that concept, and the idea that the mafia had a vigilante shot against Winston Hughes and a mafia team kill against Askthepizzaguy on the same night, in the exact same post, in the next sentence.

Let's pretend both kills succeeded and were visible, which is also a leap since there was only one kill attempt that we know of.

Even so, why would you not immediately assume one of the kills was a really misguided town vigilante who one of Winston or Pizza had been accusing, or they had put us down as scum and decided to yolo it.

Why is that not the more logical theory than immediately leaping to, town has no vigilante but the mafia has two kills?

3) Why the

would I ever vig Winston of all ppl in N1? I didnt have a read on him at all at this point, I would've killed off one of my townreads so I could develop Winston however I saw fit. Why kill of a null from my pile instead of Kage of dp? Makes no sense

At no point was I ever suggesting you were really a town vigilante here. You hard claimed not being one, I asked you directly.

Why you'd vig him is if he's not on your team.

4) What the

did I do other than that? So I'm a vig... ok. Not a regular vig, no additional kills N2 or N3. Odd night vig? But then I'd have to have vigged myself last night... that doesnt quite seem likely. One shot vig? Then why _THE

_ would I vig in N1? I was in zero danger, I was part of the town core. Keep it holstered, play the game quietly etc etc... you know, what I'd have done if I was actual part of mafia. Why waste it N1 on Winston?

Aside from the stuff about what you'd have been doing as a town vig, which I am not saying you were doing.

I don't know what could have happened on night two. Full night vig would have to hit doctor protection on N1 and N2 both times.

It's plausible that once a vig is the solo scum they cannot keep a second kill, but I don't know about that for sure. I've seen them be able to have team kills before in mashes, just don't know if such mechanics would apply to a small game. Doubtful even.

A one extra shot vig or an odd night vig are the only other plausible explanations for the scum team. You wouldn't need to claim many shots, and it's even possible for there to be multiple vigs in a game and not be scum if they have limitations (i.e. one shot from an inventor, one sometimes shot but not every night shot from a different role). You also know in this setup there's a strongman if you're scum, therefore missing kills can be explained by doctor protections as I said.

With the idea of limited shots in play and plausible reasons why they'd go missing, the claim is much easier to make for a scumbag. Then you could claim a shot on someone and say it did not cause a death and suspect them for it, and later, you can explain the missing night of a kill, and then visibly kill on the night thereafter to prove you have the power, and it isn't immediately outing if it's odd night. Or, you could completely claim to be a one-shot vig even if you had an odd night. The point is, you have options.

Putting shots into both Winston and Pizza on night 1 guarantees one of us dies, somewhat checks if we're bulletproof, or confirms we're being doctor protected. There was never going to be a more useful time to shoot twice, even if you only had a single shot to play with.

So yea, enjoy that post. Sorry if I was getting a bit mean at times...

I don't call people morons for wrong guesses and I don't appreciate being called one.

You told me all game long that this play from you was part of your own scum meta. You'll have to forgive me at some point for believing it, when you posted about choosing people who would make a good final 5 lynchee, anticipating a lot of failure between now and then, and claiming a never-seen mafia vig in addition to a mafia team kill, while also admitting to crumbing that you might have been a vig earlier this round before you confirmed you were not one.

If I am not allowed to have legitimate suspicion on you after that, I shouldn't be playing this game. Frankly none of us should be.

That's all I have to say on that. I prefer these games stay civil, joking, the interplay between us meant to elicit entertaining reactions, not hurt feelings. If I've offended you by accusing you wrongly then it was not my intention.

I don't give a single fig about these games. I care about them to an extent as a hobby I enjoy a LOT, but if it results in people getting personally offended or upset in real life, it's not a game to me anymore.

After the game, my intention is that Slaan and Askthepizzaguy can still like each other. If I've failed on that then the game doesn't matter to me.

But I have to be allowed to be wrong or I cannot be allowed to play.

Unvote

**Askthepizzaguy** · 10-12-2017, 08:45

I've dealt with too many people yelling at me for being a moron for accusing them this game.

I've had my fill.

**Fredwood** · 10-12-2017, 08:46

Also, you had Chox below GH for that upcoming day 2, which falls in line with the concerted attempt that Zack and GH had to push Chox day 2. Your post about your GH/Chox theory would further back this up

Originally Posted by Slaan

I have a simple theory about GH rn. The Wild West game on MU was in a similar D1 state if Chox is mafia with two mafia being in the crosshairs of town right from the start and both got killed in the first two days. GH was the third wolf this game and bussed the partner that died D2 on D1 but tried to get off him D2 and onto Fred instead... in the end nothing worked out quite right (though the game was very close till then end, ending with a coinflip costing GH the game)

Anyway, so now he looks at a similar game with 2 of his partners (potentially) being in towns crosshairs yet again.. and he doesnt want to be with his back against the wall again so he starts earlier to try and get town off his partners, delay their lynches if at all possible.

Thats my working theory anyway rn in regards to GH... though I would always lynch Chox over him tomorrow

At the time I contested this theory.

1st because a Logic bus doesn't help GH because he can use the overtly contrarian stance to prop up WIFOM.

2nd because that wasn't a move designed to save Chox. Chox was in no danger of being lynched, in fact the only ones really pushing him were Zack and GH, so it's clouding the game state implying there was two actual wagons. It also further increased the chances of the Chox lynch Day 2 so it did nothing to distract away from a scum teammate. You were playing the role of the "logical townie" to try and see if the Chox and GH are scum theory works but never was able to fully pursue it because distancing.

It's also interesting to not the places of GH and Chox on your post here. This seems to indicate you want to Lynch GH next phase but are willing to switch to Chox, but the post you make later is one that indicates Chox is your number one suspect in a tier by himself.

**Askthepizzaguy** · 10-12-2017, 08:49

This is why I don't play on a lot of other sites anymore. I come home to the org so I don't have to be verbally abused if I guess wrong.

**Askthepizzaguy** · 10-12-2017, 08:51

I can actually say my tinfoil hat theories and put my emotions into those cases and really try, and not worry about what if I'm wrong to an abnormal extent.

If the only cases I can make are the ones where the conclusion is obvious, consensus, or straightforward in a game with championship-caliber tacticians and strategists, I don't know what I'm friggen doing here.

**Choxorn** · 10-12-2017, 08:53

Originally Posted by Slaan

Just one question @Choxorn : What did you do N1?

I would think, given the timing of Zack's death, that the ordering of my actions would be obvious.

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