Chess - Game Thread [Concluded]

[Slaan]

Strong feelings? I acknowledged for half a day that Pizza's case on Logic was solid. I never expected the Chox wagon to blow up.

I did care about EOD.

Ugh that post feels baaad. Never expected for the Chox wagon to blow up but the Chox wagon was in the lead at some point (6 to 5).. and the way he cared about the EoD was also rather aritificial with the proposed tie and preflip wagonomics... only thing good looking here is that was in response to Zack sussing him. Monty being mafia would also mean that all four mafia were on Chox at some point which doesnt seem all that likely.. in addition to him defending me today...

[Montmorency]

I havent ever seen a wolf anouncing his doc blocked night vig in thread for no reason.... but yea that appears to be the linchpin in your case against me and I can't defend from that. I was merely blindly speculating on possibilities and what else could've happened during the night (mainly because I thought the Winston kill to be odd but w/e) without giving it much thought, but that will become obvious after I flip or the game ends. Will stop defending myself overall from this as I don't see it going anywhere, if you think that I would make such a blunder then lynching me is the correct play for you and I can't fault you for that (doesnt change the fact that I think the case to be bad though but w/e, it's not like we have any slam dunk cases left anyway).

I will now pick up where I left off when rereading and see if I can get through the rest before EoD.

@Askthepizzaguy

If there is a town doctor, and Slaan talked about 3 killing powers in the game, and he did it because he is a Mafia vig that failed to kill you or whoever N1, and he was setting the stage to make claims about role actions later in the game to frame Choxorn, protect teammates, or clear himself, then why hasn't a town doctor come forward to confirm a N1 protection? No point hiding since claiming, "I protected Pizza N1" seals the case and the game surely ends with lynching Slaan. OTOH, silence suggests either that the case on Slaan is wrong, or there is no town doctor, which causes to weaken the other assumptions of the case against Slaan.

Unvote: Slaan

Vote: Barto

That being said I'm getting an uncomfortable feeling from Fred... why does he have problem in reading Monty as long as I'm around? Doesnt matter what my affiliation is, as either I'm scum then the game ends when I'm lynched or I'm town in which case the game proceeds... so they only way it makes sense to look at monty should be under the assumption that I'm town.

Well, he should. As long as he's doing a critical ISO, best to get everything coherent in one sitting.

Ugh that post feels baaad. Never expected for the Chox wagon to blow up but the Chox wagon was in the lead at some point (6 to 5).. and the way he cared about the EoD was also rather aritificial with the proposed tie and preflip wagonomics... only thing good looking here is that was in response to Zack sussing him. Monty being mafia would also mean that all four mafia were on Chox at some point which doesnt seem all that likely.. in addition to him defending me today...

It was never in the lead. I started it because the case against Choxorn at the time was better than the one against other low-posters. GH and Zack joined almost immediately, then Reinoe and Logic self-pres. Winston was a pressure-voter and returned to Logic once the wagons got close.

I didn't present it as a lynch that had to happen over Logic's, and my response to Zack (1) pointed out that my not pushing Choxorn (2) as the alternative to Logic did not mean I didn't care about EOD (3). That's the sequence of propositions.

[Slaan]

Not sure about your doc point, that would only be correct if the doc received information that his protect was succesful (which there is no way that happened). If he just protected pizza then that doesnt make me as scum imo because it makes no difference as I'm not vig and I didnt shoot at pizza... only thing that would tell us is that pizzas theory isnt 100% wrong (any other protect would make that clear).

Also: Here you have the Chox wagon being in the lead:

Vote count:

Pizza (1): Manasi

Zack (1): Xiahou

Logic (5): Pizza, Dp101, Slaan, Choxorn, Kagemusha

Reinoe (1): Fredwood

El Barto (1): Csargo

Choxorn (6): Montmorency, Zack, GH, Winston Hughes, Reinoe, Logic

Xiahou (1): El Barto


Not voting (1): Cuthillius,

With 17 players there are 9 to hammer.


EOD1:

[Fredwood]

Perfect post. Though I think I'm being also suspected for the exact planning you are now proposing when giving a list and order of ppl I'd want to lynch (and also floated the idea that I wasnt sure about you and I'd consider lynching you around F5 or smth) because planning apparently means expecting mislynches which is somehow wolfy or smth, not quite sure myself on that one but I was accused something like that.

Because you weren't proposing to break POE and still planning out the lynches. We are now considering breaking the POE.

[Slaan]

If he’s scum, he did nothing but tunnel his buddies all day. I don’t think that scum ever leaves him alive for wifom purposes because there’s no one alive who would (or at least should) tinfoil him. At this point I’m thinking either doc save (and there’s some other source of KP that killed Winston), redirector, or Pizza is horrifically wrong on something that winston was right on.

Ugh dp don't do this... We now know that Zack and GH were also wolves but at the time only knew of Logic for sure... then why say he did nothing but tunnel buddies as in more than one at this point. Am I crazy or is this a slip? If it was from anyone else I'd hard push here but the rest of dp looks sooo goood...

[Slaan]

Because you weren't proposing to break POE and still planning out the lynches. We are now considering breaking the POE.

I what now? I have my own PoE and posted it and planned it out (well sorta, didnt really count the lynched we had...).

[Fredwood]

This is also a read that's weird to me. Especially as mafia I'd be careful on how my reads progress and make sure everything fits neatly together... just look at my readlists from the orchestrated chaos game:

Day 1 part1
Day 1 part2
Day 2
Day 3
Day 4

I don't forget reads as mafia.. and I don't make them up unless I can explain how I got there. As towny here on the the other hand I have other things on my mind and don't pay so much attention to my progression but why would I, got nothing to hide... which is probably not a good thing but I can't invest the energy over this long period of times lacking the motivation I'd have as mafia (I much prefer playing as scum...). In addition I had a hard work week, hosted a mafia game on my homesite (currently still running) and other private stuff going on so yea, me adopting someone elses reads whom I trust and then forgetting about it because it wasnt really my read is just something that happens apparently.

I mean I know that that's what happened, don't know if I can make you believe me.... or if it makes any difference as I doubt anyone would trust me come F3 or smth so might as well resolve me today if that clears other stuff up.

That being said I'm getting an uncomfortable feeling from Fred... why does he have problem in reading Monty as long as I'm around? Doesnt matter what my affiliation is, as either I'm scum then the game ends when I'm lynched or I'm town in which case the game proceeds... so they only way it makes sense to look at monty should be under the assumption that I'm town. Feels like he's setting up Monty to be another lynch candidate after I flip... not to mention that I feel his play is different from his wild west game. Feels way more aggressive here.. maybe that's only because I'm on the receiving end though (or because he was under fire in the WW game..).

Pizza literally requested someone else to ISO monty because he needed fresh eyes. He has no reason to listen to you, Monty isn't going to do it, Bart is isn't even reading the thread. So I mean I guess I should have ignored him. In the end I'm pretty much where I was at the beginning of the phase with Monty just with more specifics, I'm not going into where I'd Lynch Monty because I don't know, I think he's town at the moment. I don't have him unlynchable, or lock, I never did.

[Montmorency]

Not sure about your doc point, that would only be correct if the doc received information that his protect was succesful (which there is no way that happened). If he just protected pizza then that doesnt make me as scum imo because it makes no difference as I'm not vig and I didnt shoot at pizza... only thing that would tell us is that pizzas theory isnt 100% wrong (any other protect would make that clear).

Also: Here you have the Chox wagon being in the lead:

A doctor claim would support the existence of a Mafia vig, and so Pizza's mechanical case against you. It's not 100%, but it's pretty strong, in that case.

Vote: Logic

For more than 12 hours, the wagon had 2 votes, then after GH made #3 in just a couple hours it reached its peak of 6. Half an hour after Logic pushed Choxorn past his own wagon, Winston switched.

[Slaan]

Pizza literally requested someone else to ISO monty because he needed fresh eyes. He has no reason to listen to you, Monty isn't going to do it, Bart is isn't even reading the thread. So I mean I guess I should have ignored him. In the end I'm pretty much where I was at the beginning of the phase with Monty just with more specifics, I'm not going into where I'd Lynch Monty because I don't know, I think he's town at the moment. I don't have him unlynchable, or lock, I never did.

I wasnt objecting to you ISOing him or even the points you made, it's the way you didnt want to place him... the reason being essentially because I'm around. You said in your ISO of monty Post #1896 that your read has taken a hit and you see crafty wolf in his day and now he's town again.. the fact that you mention me in this ISO 3 times is also weird to me.... though tbh I don't know how to place that. Guess its simliar to the way you suss that I find this progression and reasoning bad but I also somehow don't see this coming from a mafia who'd have a firmer opinion and not flip flap like that....

[Slaan]

A doctor claim would support the existence of a Mafia vig, and so Pizza's mechanical case against you. It's not 100%, but it's pretty strong, in that case.

Ok dumb question: Wouldnt a doc also protect from mafia faction kill? (thats how it works on my homeboard...) or does it only protect against vigs?

For more than 12 hours, the wagon had 2 votes, then after GH made #3 in just a couple hours it reached its peak of 6. Half an hour after Logic pushed Choxorn past his own wagon, Winston switched.

True, but I still think it's weird to say 'I didnt expect it to blow up' (then why vote and argue for it in the first place)... Idk just feels off a bit. Then you just know also said that it was never the lead wagon... but I suppose some amnesia is going around so I don't fault you for that ;)

[Fredwood]

I what now? I have my own PoE and posted it and planned it out (well sorta, didnt really count the lynched we had...).

You're saying it was a perfect post and what you were doing. When it wasn't.

Monty's whole point in the post is the fact that we are considering lynching you means we are considering breaking established POE and should plan for failure, that was Monty's point. You weren't breaking POE, you were altering it (while inconsistently assessing spew) sure, but still planning out the failure while still trying to exist within it.

[Slaan]

You're saying it was a perfect post and what you were doing. When it wasn't.

Monty's whole point in the post is the fact that we are considering lynching you means we are considering breaking established POE and should plan for failure, that was Monty's point. You weren't breaking POE, you were altering it (while inconsistently assessing spew) sure, but still planning out the failure while still trying to exist within it.

??? Whats the difference between breaking PoE and altering it? When you plan out failure it's fine but if I do it it's not? And why would I ever place myself in my PoE to be lynched? If you mislynch me thats mainly your problem from where I stand as you have to figure out the last mafia with one less lynch and I woulnd't have to bother anymore.

I have 0 clue how this strategy behind your 'breaking PoE' or 'altering PoE' or whatever is supposed to work. I look at ppl and determine who my most likely mafia candidates are and who my most likely town candidates are and publish my thoughts. It doesnt matter much to me when doing it what the rest of you think, that's mostly irrelevant for my thoughts outside of very specific situations (such as the Winston case where I mindmelded with pizza over so many things and after his long Winston case (which after rereading it remembering to have read it and thought it good.. just didnt stick in my head because it still wasnt my read but w/e, not like you'll believe that before you see me flip) made me adopt this read of his w/o me having actually read winston myself). So why I be bound by your PoE or be concerend about breaking it or altering it or whatever?

And how would that make me scum?

[Fredwood]

I wasnt objecting to you ISOing him or even the points you made, it's the way you didnt want to place him... the reason being essentially because I'm around. You said in your ISO of monty Post #1896 that your read has taken a hit and you see crafty wolf in his day and now he's town again.. the fact that you mention me in this ISO 3 times is also weird to me.... though tbh I don't know how to place that. Guess its simliar to the way you suss that I find this progression and reasoning bad but I also somehow don't see this coming from a mafia who'd have a firmer opinion and not flip flap like that....

Because I wouldn't lynch Monty before I lynch you because of how you've treated Monty so forgivingly this phase (lock clearing) despite some serious suss you threw down on him Day 1 and that you said in the first 30 pages of your re-read that he looked good, when he in fact he didn't, he didn't look bad exactly either.

So what am I to think?

If Town Slaan is rereading, why would Town Slaan over credit Monty for his Body of work day 1, while also forgetting that some of his strongest suss in the game was on Monty. Is there a reason for Town Slaan to do this?

If Scum Slaan is "re-reading" why would Scum Slaan over credit Monty for his body of work day 1 and leave out that some of his strongest suss was directed towards him? I can think of a couple of reasons for this.

Basically every negative point for Monty in my ISO is a negative point for you and since you started with more negative points already it means I'm not going to be able to properly assess Monty.

Now, obviously I'm not fully sold on your lynch today, there's been bad stuff but some fair points, and I don't know if scum allows himself to become a target at this point in the game. At least this is what I would do, but I'm also not that good as scum so.

It's a fair point that you would remember your reads as scum, but I just don't like the idea that such a high town read would just be sheeping without saying anything, especially when it was shared by almost the entire thread. That means I can't trust your reads as town and if I can't trust what you're saying as town, what's the point of having you around?

Winston isn't the only issue, you lock cleared me, you hard sussed Monty, and these weren't consensus reads at the time so there was no sheeping going on. Ok so we can write off one as your misuse of the term lock clear. However, the fact that you accused Monty hard in a long involved post, and just sort of forgot about it just doesn't ring true to me. It wasn't an adoptive read, it was a progression. You can't possibly have the same excuse that you have for the Winston slip.

[Montmorency]

In other news, I feel like poking the bear a bit.

Vote: Manasi

It's probably somewhere in between how well she thinks I can read her and how well I think I can read her.

I think I can read her reasonably well.

not really

I think she's one that's easier to read when a wolf or two has already flipped. I'm not too good, and by which I mean horrible, at reading her tonally or by content.

Winston asks GH and Zack how well they can read Manasi. GH can read Manasi "reasonably well"; Zack reads Manasi "horribly".

GH went after Manasi and Zack never joined him. Soon after, Zack launched a case against Barto, which GH did not join.

This is just a tendril, but I'm working on a thesis that GH and Zack actively tried to differentiate their reads from each other's on the same people or things. If this is correct, then we should try to use the flips so far to make a model using the comparisons between reads and attitudes. It could help isolate candidates for their partner. Logic could affect this modeling, but to manage complexity we should do GH-Zack bivariate first and separately before we add Logic as a third variable. Since Logic has relatively few reads or interactions, it shouldn't be hard to layer the modifications onto the completed bivariate model.

Ok dumb question: Wouldnt a doc also protect from mafia faction kill? (thats how it works on my homeboard...) or does it only protect against vigs?

Would it matter? Whether or not (as Pizza wondered) a solo Mafia could wield two kills, if the game started with Mafia teamkill + vig, then as long as one of the kills gets blocked the effect is the same. Whether Winston, or Kagemusha, was a TK or a vig shouldn't affect the case wrt Town doctor.

True, but I still think it's weird to say 'I didnt expect it to blow up' (then why vote and argue for it in the first place)... Idk just feels off a bit. Then you just know also said that it was never the lead wagon... but I suppose some amnesia is going around so I don't fault you for that ;)

To have the case in the thread. Clearly, that's useful.

It was lead wagon for half an hour, cut me some slack.

[Fredwood]

??? Whats the difference between breaking PoE and altering it? When you plan out failure it's fine but if I do it it's not? And why would I ever place myself in my PoE to be lynched? If you mislynch me thats mainly your problem from where I stand as you have to figure out the last mafia with one less lynch and I woulnd't have to bother anymore.

I have 0 clue how this strategy behind your 'breaking PoE' or 'altering PoE' or whatever is supposed to work. I look at ppl and determine who my most likely mafia candidates are and who my most likely town candidates are and publish my thoughts. It doesnt matter much to me when doing it what the rest of you think, that's mostly irrelevant for my thoughts outside of very specific situations (such as the Winston case where I mindmelded with pizza over so many things and after his long Winston case (which after rereading it remembering to have read it and thought it good.. just didnt stick in my head because it still wasnt my read but w/e, not like you'll believe that before you see me flip) made me adopt this read of his w/o me having actually read winston myself). So why I be bound by your PoE or be concerend about breaking it or altering it or whatever?

And how would that make me scum?

sigh...

Maybe you truly don't see the difference, maybe you do, at this point I don't know how else to say it to make it clear.

At the start of the day you weren't in the POE for today, you were in the lynch as last resort pile. Now you're in the needs to be dealt with sooner then later pile. I

You were saying, Yes, I believe we should follow this POE (except lol Bart is in my Final 3...for whatever reason), but Imma go ahead and plan out all the lynches until final 3.

It's the difference between playing for the day and playing 4 days ahead. Now what Monty is saying that since we're considering you that we're severely altering our path to victory that was established pretty much since the first phase, so that means we have to think it out. I don't think it really is a valid point, it just means we have a smaller don't lynch until later pile.

[Slaan]

Yea, never gonna use the term lock clear anymore. At times I think I just said it to sell a point I saw as very towny... rip me I guess on that front, and well learned.

Regarding Monty: I didnt like Monty D1 thats true. But now that Zack has flipped this looks alot better in my eyes... He is not locked by any means, except chox (and I guess pizza, cuz that would be some srsly disgusting play if he was ^^) noone is. Having now reached well into D2 in my reread I've gotten concerned again because he has GH/Zack as 'only one of them can be mafia, they are never partners' or somesuch.... and then goes after GH over Zack even though he sussed Zack on D1 rather strongly.. at this point I'm just trying to make an ordered list of ppl from least scummy to most scummy and hope to get ppl to vote with me on the most scummy ppl. There arent any obvious slam dunk scum cases for anyone around, at least not that I can see so I have to deal in shades of grey and obviously figuring this it out is hard. Which is to no suprise since anyone on me is wrong and outside of that no one seems to be sure about much so yea. Maybe me bringing up town points on ppl I prev looks scummy looks bad from youru perspective or the other way around but I'm not going to tunnel any read at this juncture...

Regarding Winston: iirc I even said in the post where I put him as one of my top points that pizza's case on him was good so I'm good with the read... and before pizza made that case I even said that I'm still pretty null on Winston if I'm not mistaken... can't look it up rn because I want to be through with my reread before the day is over (obviously) and I have to still do some grocery shopping + EoD/night is coming up in game I'm hosting so yea..

[Slaan]

Would it matter? Whether or not (as Pizza wondered) a solo Mafia could wield two kills, if the game started with Mafia teamkill + vig, then as long as one of the kills gets blocked the effect is the same. Whether Winston, or Kagemusha, was a TK or a vig shouldn't affect the case wrt Town doctor.

So just to nail this: If the doc is around and has protected pizza and gets a confirmation that his protection worked then I agree. I'd laugh loud if that happened (as that would mean there is actually a mafia vig out there and shot pizza N1) but in that case I'm the obvious lynch and will laugh at it from the graveyard. But the existing of a doc that protected pizza N1 doesnt prove anything alone in my eyes.... clearing would be (at least in regard to pizzas theory) if the doc had protected someone else that night... but I'm not sure if I want the doc to out himself for that tbh, even with that clear I'd probably don't get back to the secure town pile after all that happened today so him staying quiet would probably be +EV even if I'm mislynched.

[Slaan]

sigh...

Maybe you truly don't see the difference, maybe you do, at this point I don't know how else to say it to make it clear.

At the start of the day you weren't in the POE for today, you were in the lynch as last resort pile. Now you're in the needs to be dealt with sooner then later pile. I

You were saying, Yes, I believe we should follow this POE (except lol Bart is in my Final 3...for whatever reason), but Imma go ahead and plan out all the lynches until final 3.

It's the difference between playing for the day and playing 4 days ahead. Now what Monty is saying that since we're considering you that we're severely altering our path to victory that was established pretty much since the first phase, so that means we have to think it out. I don't think it really is a valid point, it just means we have a smaller don't lynch until later pile.

Didnt Chox just basically take my place? What else has changed?

[Sooh]

Vote count:

El Barto (1): Montmorency,

Csargo (1): Xiahou,

Not voting (8): Choxorn, Fredwood, El Barto, Cuthillius, Dp101, Csargo Slaan, Pizza,

With 10 players there are 6 to hammer.


EOD4:

[Askthepizzaguy]

Strongman and no doctor. That's just bizarre.

Okay. Barto I guess.

Vote: El Barto

[Fredwood]

Didnt Chox just basically take my place? What else has changed?

No Chox is in the never lynch pile now. To my mind nothing has changed because yes, essentially you guys swapped. Which is why I don't agree with Monty, but he's also not saying the same thing you were doing.

However according to your logic with Bart, Chox should have always been in the never lynch pile. Basically anybody with somewhat valid spew should be, which means Monty shouldn't have been in your lynch as last resort. Your logic was inconsistent within your own post.

[Fredwood]

Pizza what do you make of the Xiahou vote?

[Montmorency]

sigh...

Maybe you truly don't see the difference, maybe you do, at this point I don't know how else to say it to make it clear.

At the start of the day you weren't in the POE for today, you were in the lynch as last resort pile. Now you're in the needs to be dealt with sooner then later pile. I

You were saying, Yes, I believe we should follow this POE (except lol Bart is in my Final 3...for whatever reason), but Imma go ahead and plan out all the lynches until final 3.

It's the difference between playing for the day and playing 4 days ahead. Now what Monty is saying that since we're considering you that we're severely altering our path to victory that was established pretty much since the first phase, so that means we have to think it out. I don't think it really is a valid point, it just means we have a smaller don't lynch until later pile.

I should point out, I recognized some problems with planning if planning involves changing course on the basis of flips - because all flips are town until the game ends.

Standard 2 deaths per round. 4 lynches, 3 kills.

Predict only 1/4 locked survives to LYLO.







But there's nothing new here. Actually, this is more arbitrary than I imagined. I can't really switch around people in the Lock/Lynch piles, or do so contingent on future lynches, because there's no new flips to distinguish lynches (effectively all town until game ends). No one can be cleared or spewed anymore (without role claims) because there are no more Mafia partners to lynch. I can't predict what new information changes the variables, so it becomes random if you make plans that deviate from Pizza's OG stable.

OK I was somewhat mistaken. You really do have to take it day by day.

So just to nail this: If the doc is around and has protected pizza and gets a confirmation that his protection worked then I agree. I'd laugh loud if that happened (as that would mean there is actually a mafia vig out there and shot pizza N1) but in that case I'm the obvious lynch and will laugh at it from the graveyard. But the existing of a doc that protected pizza N1 doesnt prove anything alone in my eyes.... clearing would be (at least in regard to pizzas theory) if the doc had protected someone else that night... but I'm not sure if I want the doc to out himself for that tbh, even with that clear I'd probably don't get back to the secure town pile after all that happened today so him staying quiet would probably be +EV even if I'm mislynched.

I said that if there is no claim it creates problems for Pizza, so claiming now, especially near EOD, would harm town. A claim would only strengthen the case against you, even if it isn't airtight.

But I believe that the absence of any claim up to now suggests that there is no doctor, and there is no vig: Pizza's scenario is all wrong.

[Fredwood]

I should point out, I recognized some problems with planning if planning involves changing course on the basis of flips - because all flips are town until the game ends.







I said that if there is no claim it creates problems for Pizza, so claiming now, especially near EOD, would harm town. A claim would only strengthen the case against you, even if it isn't airtight.

But I believe that the absence of any claim up to now suggests that there is no doctor, and there is no vig: Pizza's scenario is all wrong.

Or Cuth is the doctor, or whoever is the doctor didn't read Pizza's post.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Pizza what do you make of the Xiahou vote?

I don't know.

At this point I will say we are not masons and I don't have any reason besides his votes to suspect he's a townie.

The votes looked good is all.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Or Cuth is the doctor, or whoever is the doctor didn't read Pizza's post.

Or the strongman shooter was assigned to one person, and it was meant to counter the gift giving inventor protection(s).

It's possible that it would cycle back to being another doctor protection.

Here's how you can tell we have no doctor: choxorn dies tonight.

[Fredwood]

I don't know.

At this point I will say we are not masons and I don't have any reason besides his votes to suspect he's a townie.

The votes looked good is all.

No I don't mean for the point of sussing Xiah, it's a bad post I guess. I was just seeing if you thought he was an accurate voter in this situation like Auto was in XCom. It basically was never mentioned or discussed by anyone but a ? from Bart.

[Montmorency]

Or Cuth is the doctor, or whoever is the doctor didn't read Pizza's post.

I had a thought that Cuth or some other lurker could be scum - just weren't around to help their partners on the Choxorn wagon toward EOD - but it's not strong reasoning and you shouldn't rely on it.

[Fredwood]

I had a thought that Cuth or some other lurker could be scum - just weren't around to help their partners on the Choxorn wagon toward EOD - but it's not strong reasoning and you shouldn't rely on it.

I'm not, my suss on Slaan never involved Pizza's points about the doctor and crumbing. It was a bit too high level of games theory for me to really get on board with.

[Askthepizzaguy]

No I don't mean for the point of sussing Xiah, it's a bad post I guess. I was just seeing if you thought he was an accurate voter in this situation like Auto was in XCom. It basically was never mentioned or discussed by anyone but a ? from Bart.

.
I have to be able to see the motive.

The bare naked vote from Xiahou on Csargo doesn't do much for me. If I am to change on a town read I have to see the motive.

Spelled out for me where during the game Csargo was helping the mafia team, and why those posts are indicative of mafia instead of town.

Like, I can see a plan from Monty, if I squint real hard. I didn't really ever see a plan from Csargo.

Plans can be individual tactics or coordination with the scum team as a whole.