Chess - Game Thread [Concluded]

[Csargo]

Also, chances that the last scum is in the top half of GH's list with the other two?

[Askthepizzaguy]

Also, chances that the last scum is in the top half of GH's list with the other two?

NAI, Gh would put his scums anywhere. All scummy, mostly scummy, null, half and half, mostly townie.

You can't be predictable and he can effortlessly read his own teammates town.

[Csargo]

NAI, Gh would put his scums anywhere. All scummy, mostly scummy, null, half and half, mostly townie.

You can't be predictable and he can effortlessly read his own teammates town.

I'd say it's more likely they're in the top half imo, given the other shenanigans in this game. Potentially the top part below his town line.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I'd say it's more likely they're in the top half imo, given the other shenanigans in this game. Potentially the top part below his town line.

Generic, but ok. Who specifically is your last 3 lynches?

[Csargo]

Generic, but ok. Who specifically is your last 3 lynches?

Slaan/Xiahou/not sure

[Montmorency]

I tried and failed, new attempt, new approach. How do I go about this?

I think it's a reasonable question. How did the 3 flipped scum interact with each other, read each other, and how did the 3 flipped scum interact with and read the flipped townies? Are there any systematic distinctions to be found? If so, what can we discover if we apply these systematic distinctions between the flipped scum and the living players? Can living players be differentiated according to such a model, and how does this match up to the POE obtained by other means?



Here's the impenetrable morass up to Post 240 + Logic ISO:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I’m looking for systematic differences in how two or all scums interacted with each other and how two or all scums interacted with confirmed townies. Then, I check against the rest of the living players.

Zack (N2)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

GH: 1. Game-start banter Zack to GH: “aren’t ellipses a wolf tell?”
2. GH arrives just after the DP-Zack reaction test event, and reads both as okay:

Zack and dp look okay, Zack seems really natural and flow-y and Dp seems uncomfortable so far which is pretty solidly in his town meta.
Everyone else is either null or confusing.

Pizza approves the post. Zack asks GH, “What do you look for to identify me as a wolf?”
DP responds to GH:

Man, if I ever develop a stronger, more confident town game, I'm going to need to be prepared for endless mislynches as a result.

Monty asks DP to clarify the reaction test, and if it makes Zack townier now for voting DP. Zack explains the reaction test from his own perspective, and DP calls the whole thing NAI. Monty still confused, asks Zack what it’s supposed to mean for the current context.
3. Responding to Zack’s question on how GH sees Zack’s meta: It’s mostly “tone and stuff”, but also that Zack challenges townreads others give him, though he did that before as scum, but GH thinks he wouldn’t pull that trick twice. Zack challenges GH reading based on his “tone”, and offers that he contests Zack townreads as scum all the time because WIFOM.

Logic: 1. Zack banters with Logic on Logic’s banter with GH over GH’s welcome-vote on Logic.
2. In his first big reads post, Logic reads DP town and not teamed with Zack or Pizza.
3. Zack asks Logic about the townreads Kage has been getting from various people. Logic sees only that GH and Winston have townreads on Kage. Logic assumes it’s because they have meta. He won’t rely very much on their reads, but the fact they have such strong ones means Logic should either reconsider on Kage, or look at all 3 more critically. (Obliquely shading GH)

GH (D2)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Zack: 1. Game-start banter Zack to GH: “aren’t ellipses a wolf tell?”
2. Zack includes GH in banter w/ Slaan (forum skins).
3. GH arrives just after the DP-Zack reaction test event, and reads both as okay:

Zack and dp look okay, Zack seems really natural and flow-y and Dp seems uncomfortable so far which is pretty solidly in his town meta.
Everyone else is either null or confusing.

Pizza approves the post. Zack asks GH, “What do you look for to identify me as a wolf?”
4. Responding to Zack’s question on how GH sees Zack’s meta: It’s mostly “tone and stuff”, but also that Zack challenges townreads others give him, though he did that before as scum, but GH thinks he wouldn’t pull that trick twice. Zack challenges GH reading based on his “tone”, and offers that he contests Zack townreads as scum all the time because WIFOM.

Logic: 1. Banters with GH about his vote on him.
4. Reinoe’s first post is a vote for Logic. Zack asks him some questions about off-site identity, notifies him of impending welcome-lynch from GH.
2. Zack asks Logic about the townreads Kage has been getting from various people. Logic sees only that GH and Winston have townreads on Kage. Logic assumes it’s because they have meta. He won’t rely very much on their reads, but the fact they have such strong ones means Logic should either reconsider on Kage, or look at all 3 more critically. (Obliquely shading GH)

Logic (D1)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Starts thread with off-topic banter involving Zack and Slaan.
In sum, banters or tries to with Slaan, Csargo, Zack, GH, Cuth, and Fred.

Zack: 1. Zack banters with Logic on Logic’s banter with GH over GH’s welcome-vote on Logic.
2. Zack responds to the flavor of Pizza’s Logic vote with banter, doesn’t address substance. Pizza banters with Zack, and back again, and again. DP expresses confusion, and Pizza jokingly affirms it. DP still confused; Pizza advises DP vote to lynch Logic. DP susses Pizza according to meta for cavorting around without purpose or analysis, and Zack likes him for it (which DP finds “SPICY”). Pizza contends that he has been doing the most work, but DP complains that if this is so the work is obscured by fluff, though he will check again for the reasoning against Logic. Zack mocks Pizza.
3. Zack declares an unsolicited townlean – “I like DP” – and DP finds it “S P I C Y”. Logic asks DP why he keeps saying that. This comes right after Zack’s vote on DP and the reaction test admission. DP explains the meta behind the reaction test. Zack returns to banter with DP.
X. Zack asks Logic about the townreads Kage has been getting from various people. Logic sees only that GH and Winston have townreads on Kage. Logic assumes it’s because they have meta. He won’t rely very much on their reads, but the fact they have such strong ones means Logic should either reconsider on Kage, or look at all 3 more critically. (Obliquely shading GH)

GH: 1. GH welcome-votes Logic, asks why others haven’t done the same.

Winston (N1)

In post 123, Winston proposes the scum team Zack/Pizza/GH/Monty. DP calls it spicy, Monty notices that Winston seems to have identified the top-posters (exchanging GH for Slaan, and Pizza calls it suspicious.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Zack: 1. Winston voting exchanges with Zack. Mutual bantering and shading.
2. Monty asks Zack what it means that Winton hasn’t claimed miller. Zack implies it means Winston is scum and must die. Or he’s a neutral survivor.
3. Winston votes Pizza and claims scum, asks to be killed. Zack says he’s working on it.
4. Still game start, but Winston has done Zack’s ISO and it is 40 posts with no solving, buddying with the main influencers, and total manipulation. Zack takes it in stride, acts like it’s just what Winston should find. But Winston thinks Zack bit off more than he could chew, and implies TDome. Pizza wonders whether a stalemate could emerge.
5. Zack susses Winston for not having fun. DP questions this. Zack questions back. DP thinks fun Winston is probably town Winston. Zack says that’s the point: Winston stopped being fun earlier than expected. Monty meta-comments on DP’s reaction to this and Pizza’s reaction to Winston’s scum team by affecting ominousness. Winston banters in response. Zack returns the banter. Pizza likes Zack’s reasoning for suss. And more mutual banter.
6. Winston provides leans that list Zack, GH, and Pizza as scum , Monty as 3P, Logic and Csargo null, and Slaan and DP town. Zack asks if any of these are serious, potentially challenging Pizza as scum or DP/Slaan as town, or Monty as 3P. Winston is vaguely serious but not entirely honest. Pizza approves the list. Monty considers the leans strong and votes Zack for challenging them. Zack boos Monty’s post, asking why the leans are brave and calling Monty unusually low-effort.
7. Monty asks Winston what kind of 3P he thinks he is. Winston tries to place him according to level of aggression. Zack banters that his dream role in a game would be SK with BP and cop-immune. DP asks for elaboration on aggression levels. Monty asks if it’s aggression generally or something about his own meta. Winston answers DP, it depends who it is.

GH: 1. GH banters with Winston during game-start; Winston shades GH.

Logic: 1. Winston takes Slaan’s request to lynch Pizza for RP as a joke, but answers seriously why it’s a bad idea with reference to meta. Logic passive-aggressively susses Winston’s post and suggests it sounds like both willingness to lynch Pizza, and an admission that he is town.
2. Zack asks Logic about the townreads Kage has been getting from various people. Logic sees only that GH and Winston have townreads on Kage. Logic assumes it’s because they have meta. He won’t rely very much on their reads, but the fact they have such strong ones means Logic should either reconsider on Kage, or look at all 3 more critically. (Obliquely shading GH)

Kagemusha (N2)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Zack:

GH:

Logic: 1. In his first reads post and followup, Logic thinks Kage’s vote on Slaan seems like a lazy joke vote (esp. since Logic doesn’t see Slaan as scum), makes more than reasonable chance scum. Slaan not scum because:

I read his iso. To me, it looks more like a townie toeing the waters on a new group of people than someone with hidden information.

2. Kage asks Slaan why Logic refuses to explain why he townreads him (Slaan). Logic responds by pointing back to his old 1-sentence account of Slaan, but does not elaborate. Shades Kage for not knowing what “ISO” is.

Reinoe (N3)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Zack: 1. Reinoe’s first post is a vote for Logic. Zack asks him some questions about off-site identity, notifies him of impending welcome-lynch from GH.

GH:

Logic: 1. In his first big reads post, observes without value judgement that Reinoe is the target of DP’s ire, and Reinoe is voting Logic. Logic isn’t sure of the reasons behind the vote, wonders if it’s merely sheeping Pizza or if there are other reasons.

Manasi (D3)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Zack: 1. Zack during game-start asks Manasi to get in thread.

GH:

Logic:

El Barto (D4)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Zack:

GH:

Logic:

Montmorency

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Zack: 1. During game start, Monty says Zack-Winston-Csargo interactions/wagons are scummy. Zack doesn’t get it, says it’s two idiots clicking buttons and shouldn’t jump to w/w conclusions. I declare intent to follow up on the suss later.
2. Monty asks Zack what it means that Winton hasn’t claimed miller. Zack implies it means Winston is scum and must die. Or he’s a neutral survivor.
3. Winston votes Pizza and claims scum, asks to be killed. Zack says he’s working on it. Monty claims it’s scummy to say that because Zack is voting Csargo. Zack responds that early wagons disappear by EOD and we have plenty of time.
4. Monty comments on Winston’s game-start ISO of Zack with approval for prospective TDome.
5. Winston provides leans that list Zack, GH, and Pizza as scum , Monty as 3P, Logic and Csargo null, and Slaan and DP town. Zack asks if any of these are serious, potentially challenging Pizza as scum or DP/Slaan as town, or Monty as 3P. Winston is vaguely serious but not entirely honest. Monty considers the leans strong and votes Zack for challenging them. Zack boos Monty’s post, asking why the leans are brave and calling Monty unusually low-effort. Monty pushes back. Zack asks, “So?”. Pizza comments cryptically, confusing Zack and DP.
6. Zack and DP on the same wavelength for both expressing confusion over Pizza’s RP. Monty calls this buddying. Zack calls it confirmation bias. Monty won’t dignify that with words. Pizza’s response is cryptic. Monty makes the same wavelength claim wrt DP, to Zack’s displeasure.
7. Monty asks Winston what kind of 3P he thinks he is. Winston tries to place him according to level of aggression. Zack banters that his dream role in a game would be SK with BP and cop-immune. DP asks for elaboration on aggression levels. Monty asks if it’s aggression generally or something about his own meta. Winston answers DP, it depends who it is.
8. GH arrives just after the DP-Zack reaction test event, and reads both as okay:

Zack and dp look okay, Zack seems really natural and flow-y and Dp seems uncomfortable so far which is pretty solidly in his town meta.
Everyone else is either null or confusing.

Pizza approves the post. Zack asks GH, “What do you look for to identify me as a wolf?”
DP responds to GH:

Man, if I ever develop a stronger, more confident town game, I'm going to need to be prepared for endless mislynches as a result.

Monty asks DP to clarify the reaction test, and if it makes Zack townier now for voting DP. Zack explains the reaction test from his own perspective, and DP calls the whole thing NAI. Monty still confused, asks Zack what it’s supposed to mean for the current context.

GH: 1. GH arrives just after the DP-Zack reaction test event, and reads both as okay:

Zack and dp look okay, Zack seems really natural and flow-y and Dp seems uncomfortable so far which is pretty solidly in his town meta.
Everyone else is either null or confusing.

Pizza approves the post. Zack asks GH, “What do you look for to identify me as a wolf?”
DP responds to GH:

Man, if I ever develop a stronger, more confident town game, I'm going to need to be prepared for endless mislynches as a result.

Monty asks DP to clarify the reaction test, and if it makes Zack townier now for voting DP. Zack explains the reaction test from his own perspective, and DP calls the whole thing NAI. Monty still confused, asks Zack what it’s supposed to mean for the current context.

Logic: 1. In response to exchanges between Pizza, Zack, and DP following from Pizza’s vote on Logic, Monty asks Logic what he thinks “Pizza is doing”, and what he thinks of DP’s response to what “Pizza is doing”. Pizza buddies Monty.

I don't get it. I've not seen pizza play like this before. I know everything he does has a purpose, but here it feels like he is just playing by the seat if his pants. I'm confused, but I don't know if am am more or less so than Dp.

Choxorn

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Zack:

GH:

Logic: 1. When Logic reappears for EOD, it is ~2 days after his last post. He self-pres votes Choxorn.

DP

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Zack: 1. DP enters thread and Zack banters, but DP wants to take things seriously. Zack keeps it light, lampshading Mafia game-start. DP complains about post count.
2. Zack susses Winston for not having fun. DP questions this. Zack questions back. DP thinks fun Winston is probably town Winston. Zack says that’s the point: Winston stopped being fun earlier than expected.
3. Zack declares an unsolicited townlean – “I like DP” – and DP finds it “S P I C Y”.
4. DP agrees with Zack that Monty’s post voting Zack for challenging Winston’s leans is bad, but DP’s reasoning is that Monty is superficial, fake, and trying too hard to be casual. Monty admits it’s the clipped sentence structure he’s been using.
5. Zack and DP on the same wavelength for both expressing confusion over Pizza’s RP. Monty calls this buddying. Zack calls it confirmation bias. Monty won’t dignify that with words. Pizza’s response is cryptic. Monty makes the same wavelength claim wrt DP, to Zack’s displeasure.
6. Zack responds to the flavor of Pizza’s Logic vote with banter, doesn’t address substance. Pizza banters with Zack, and back again, and again. DP expresses confusion, and Pizza jokingly affirms it. DP still confused; Pizza advises DP vote to lynch Logic. DP susses Pizza according to meta for cavorting around without purpose or analysis, and Zack likes him for it (which DP finds “SPICY”). Pizza contends that he has been doing the most work, but DP complains that if this is so the work is obscured by fluff, though he will check again for the reasoning against Logic. Zack mocks Pizza.
7. Zack votes DP for saying “SPICY”. DP anticipated this and admits to doing it as a reaction test. Zack returns to banter with DP.

GH: 1. GH arrives just after the DP-Zack reaction test event, and reads both as okay:

Zack and dp look okay, Zack seems really natural and flow-y and Dp seems uncomfortable so far which is pretty solidly in his town meta.
Everyone else is either null or confusing.

Pizza approves the post. Zack asks GH, “What do you look for to identify me as a wolf?”
DP responds to GH:

Man, if I ever develop a stronger, more confident town game, I'm going to need to be prepared for endless mislynches as a result.

Monty asks DP to clarify the reaction test, and if it makes Zack townier now for voting DP. Zack explains the reaction test from his own perspective, and DP calls the whole thing NAI. Monty still confused, asks Zack what it’s supposed to mean for the current context.

Logic: 1. Zack declares an unsolicited townlean – “I like DP” – and DP finds it “S P I C Y”. Logic asks DP why he keeps saying that. This comes right after Zack’s vote on DP and the reaction test admission. DP explains the meta behind the reaction test. Zack returns to banter with DP.
2. In response to Pizza defending his RP to DP101, Monty asks Logic what he thinks “Pizza is doing”, and what he thinks of DP’s response to what “Pizza is doing”.

I don't get it. I've not seen pizza play like this before. I know everything he does has a purpose, but here it feels like he is just playing by the seat if his pants. I'm confused, but I don't know if am am more or less so than Dp.

3. In his first big reads post, besides shading Cuth on finding DP awkward, Logic reads DP town and not teamed with Zack or Pizza.

ATPG

I’m not tallying every instance of a direct attack by Pizza on Logic.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Zack: 1. Zack game-start banter. Then Zack claims he doesn’t understand any of Pizza’s starting material (did Pizza “switch accounts with El Barto?”). Pizza disagrees.
2. Winston votes Pizza and claims scum, asks to be killed. Zack says he’s working on it.
3. Pizza comments on Winston’s game-start ISO of Zack with banter.
4. Pizza likes Zack’s reasoning for sussing Winston.
5. Zack asks Pizza about the self-meta he made after XCOM.
6. Zack and DP on the same wavelength for both expressing confusion over Pizza’s RP. Pizza’s response is cryptic. Monty makes the same wavelength claim wrt DP, to Zack’s displeasure.
7. Csargo votes Zack, and Zack tells him it stops being cute at some point. Pizza makes a quip. Csargo makes a quip to Zack. Pizza answers Csargo’s quip with another quip. Csargo banters with Pizza.
8. Zack responds to the flavor of Pizza’s Logic vote with banter, doesn’t address substance. Pizza banters with Zack, and back again, and again. DP expresses confusion, and Pizza jokingly affirms it. DP still confused; Pizza advises DP vote to lynch Logic. DP susses Pizza according to meta for cavorting around without purpose or analysis, and Zack likes him for it (which DP finds “SPICY”). Pizza contends that he has been doing the most work, but DP complains that if this is so the work is obscured by fluff, though he will check again for the reasoning against Logic. Zack mocks Pizza.
9. Zack shades Pizza for agreeing with GH’s read on Zack (i.e. trying to read Zack). But Pizza claims Zack is more readable than most of the game so far.

GH: 1. GH arrives just after the DP-Zack reaction test event, and reads both as okay:

Zack and dp look okay, Zack seems really natural and flow-y and Dp seems uncomfortable so far which is pretty solidly in his town meta.
Everyone else is either null or confusing.

Pizza approves the post. Zack asks GH, “What do you look for to identify me as a wolf?”

Logic: 1. Pizza opens with suss on Logic. Logic is obsequious and self-deprecatory in his responses, even as Pizza summarily votes him and implies his death.
2. In response to exchanges between Pizza, Zack, and DP following from Pizza’s vote on Logic, Monty asks Logic what he thinks “Pizza is doing”, and what he thinks of DP’s response to what “Pizza is doing”. Pizza buddies Monty.

I don't get it. I've not seen pizza play like this before. I know everything he does has a purpose, but here it feels like he is just playing by the seat if his pants. I'm confused, but I don't know if am am more or less so than Dp.

3. In his first big reads post, Logic reads DP town and not teamed with Zack or Pizza. Also, Csargo and Pizza not teamed. One could be wolf, but not both. Pizza feels really weird, not sure if on same team as Logic, playing “by the seat of his pants”.
4. Winston takes Slaan’s request to lynch Pizza for RP as a joke, but answers seriously why it’s a bad idea with reference to meta. Logic passive-aggressively susses Winston’s post and suggests it sounds like both willingness to lynch Pizza, and an admission that he is town.

Csargo

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Zack: 1. Following the exchange with GH, Csargo votes Zack during the game-start flurry. Zack banters and joke-votes Csargo for using ellipses (a “scumtell”, as he asked GH earlier). Csargo banters.
2. Csargo votes Zack, and Zack tells him it stops being cute at some point. Pizza makes a quip. Csargo makes a quip to Zack. Pizza answers Csargo’s quip with another quip. Csargo banters with Pizza.
3. Reinoe comes in accusing Zack and Logic, with ATPG and GH probably town. Csargo disagrees with everything except on Zack (“Zack's quality vs quantity isn't very good at all. There's almost no gamesolving other than OMGUS.”). Zack and Csargo get into a quarrel about Zack and OMGUS. Csargo gives up.

Logic isn't my strong suit. Neither are words. Or making good arguments. I'm bad at everything.

GH: 1. Csargo enters thread by bantering with GH, and GH votes him (RVS).

Logic: 1. Csargo votes Zack, and Zack tells him it stops being cute at some point. Pizza makes a quip. Csargo makes a quip to Zack. Pizza answers Csargo’s quip with another quip. Csargo banters with Pizza. Logic responds to Csargo with more banter.
2. Following Csargo’s forsaking the squabble with Zack, Logic makes wordplay on Csargo’s closing post (“Logic isn’t my strong suit”), banters, and declares a break from the thread.
3. In his first big reads post, Logic thinks Csargo and Pizza not teamed. One could be wolf, but not both.

Fredwood

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Zack:

GH:

Logic: 1. After GH writes up a reads post including shade at Fred, Fred gives GH a flippant response. Logic tries to banter with Fred wrt that flippant response.

Cuthilius

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Zack:

GH:

Logic: 1. After Cuth’s entrance, Logic banters about chess and asks shades a bit by asking why he gets a feeling no on else seems to (i.e. finding DP and his “SPICY” reaction test weird and stiff). Wonders if he is suspicious of DP.

Slaan

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Zack: 1. Game-start banter with Zack.
2. Zack includes GH in banter w/ Slaan (forum skins).

GH: 1. During game-start banter, Slaan mentions he only has experience playing w/ GH and Fred (some confidence reading), and Cuth and Manasi (unsure if able to read).

Logic: 1. In his first reads post and followup, Logic thinks Kage’s vote on Slaan seems like a lazy joke vote (esp. since Logic doesn’t see Slaan as scum), makes more than reasonable chance scum. Slaan not scum because:

I read his iso. To me, it looks more like a townie toeing the waters on a new group of people than someone with hidden information.

2. Kage asks Slaan why Logic refuses to explain why he townreads him (Slaan). Logic responds by pointing back to his old 1-sentence account of Slaan, but does not elaborate. Shades Kage for not knowing what “ISO” is.

Xiahou

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Zack:

GH:

Logic:

Banter is, uh, important for D1 development.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Slaan/Xiahou/not sure

Csargo's POE.