Chess - Game Thread [Concluded]

[Askthepizzaguy]

Dp101


Facilitating Understanding

YES.

[Fredwood]

I've said it before, I'll say it again, Pizza for MVP.

Eh he stopped his ISO right before my best moment of the game, so no.

Ok, you got me, MVP points.

[Montmorency]

Aha, a guilty one!

11 posts.

He actually unvotes and votes for someone else.

Look how he's tossing shade onto people.

Scum-Xiahou from a long time ago:


Compare to his other town games and this game.

I see... words.

Where are his words when he's town? He's got less than half this amount.

His suspects all game have been Csargo (early game, and now), GH, and Zack. That's all.

Csargo could even be scum. Like, I don't even know if he's voted for a townie so far this game. And he's trying to influence people about this much: zero.

Let me check the other games. I don't remember him being especially wordy, but I'll look.

This game was more than a decade ago. If nowadays he plays once every few years, he won't be tied to many conventions or habits.
I understand the notion of taking the slot by default as less likely scum simply for partner aggression in a low-post space, but the game you pulled up is not evidence for any meta now.

Like, I don't even know if he's voted for a townie so far this game. And he's trying to influence people about this much: zero.

He voted for Barto D1 and Manasi in the D3 hammer. People generally haven't had as many opportunities to vote townies; not a point to hold Csargo alone to. So far Xiahou has voted Zack, GH, and (on D4) Csargo.

LOL wrong thread.

Anyway, he's a bit more talkative in VII, but, only here and there.

Instead, I'm finding this, like in Pirate ship.


This post in Pirate Ship III is basically Xiahou's town meta.

Says a reason or asks why it's not wrong, reasoning is super straightforward, or simply a declaration they're scum. They vote, and generally, he does not unvote.

It's rare that he even moves a vote. When he does, it's because the discussion and evidence has pushed him that way. Otherwise he seems to prefer to vote whoever he thinks is scummy once a round,

whether they're being voted already or not. This, plus a few or a couple examples each game where he strings together a few sentences.

Usually a couple separate topics involved, so he's only on any one topic for a sentence or two. But then he returns to one-liners, which are sporadic.

His scum meta was much denser, and involved more shading and persuasion attempts and fewer one liners. And there's a clear difference in intent.

There are clear attempts to control the outcome of the game, from his vantage point of not saying a whole lot, by changing minds and making arguments to push townies in a direction.

In other words, my guess is, Xiahou!scum would have repeated such an attempt here, and said things to push the game in any direction. To persuade the rest of us where to go.

Instead, he's content to come out of the shadows like a ninja, attack someone, and slip back in.

And that's what he does as town. He's not about that controlling the discussion life.

Xiahou is a ninja assassin as town, and his scum game involves visible intent to change course.

I believe he'd change course on Zack or GH or not target them in the first place.

Or it's player-meta, not alignment-meta.

Opening post this game.

Keep in mind, Zack had gotten votes on D1. He had been voted more than once and been shaded by a couple of people before this vote.

But he was also not lock scum or a lost cause nor did he have a big wagon at the time. In fact reinoe had unvoted him.

This is just a bizarre place to put a vote if Xiahou is scum. Timing-wise, plus the fact that he's just not someone who unvotes.

This was a voting Zack to death vote, when Zack was going super hard.

Xiahou lock town based off of this one post alone, and I'm serious about that lock. Look at the context.

Look at his meta and who he is. Look at who Zack is. That's not someone you bus d1. It goes against every single mafia principle.

Why does Xiahou care who Zack is?

So then... Csargo?

As with my other votes, it's more gut feeling than deep analysis- but I just feel like he's trying too hard at being vanilla.

Slaan gives me a little bit of a scummy vibe too- but glancing at the analysis of others, he at least appears to have a little data to support a town claim.

Otherwise... I guess it's just someone who's been flying beneath the radar all game?

On the other hand, Csargo's been read as not trying at all, and this being non-indicative at worst.

You yourself have gone under the radar.

Monty's been under the radar / in a lot of towns and did suggest tying chox/logic. Hiding in plain sight.

In any case I have my 6 townies and 3 scums and I feel a lot more secure in them than I did before.

Monty/Slaan earned their town leans, but Csargo didn't. Sloppy pizza.

I don't think I tend to be UTR anymore. Not for years.

He didn't.

I'm laffin.

An advanced search suggests he didn't vote anyone in the game except Manasi D3. (This isn't contesting your read, I've also town-read Cuth since my ISO.)

[Montmorency]

@Askthepizzaguy

Do you have any advice on how to format ISOs to build case, and how to ISO with format in mind?

I'm struggling a lot to make something more useful than just a final claim alone, without resorting either to exhaustive description or to layering quote chains by 5+ levels.

[Csargo]

NAI, Gh would put his scums anywhere. All scummy, mostly scummy, null, half and half, mostly townie.

You can't be predictable and he can effortlessly read his own teammates town.

I'd say it's more likely they're in the top half imo, given the other shenanigans in this game. Potentially the top part below his town line.

[Askthepizzaguy]

@Askthepizzaguy

Do you have any advice on how to format ISOs to build case, and how to ISO with format in mind?

I'm struggling a lot to make something more useful than just a final claim alone, without resorting either to exhaustive description or to layering quote chains by 5+ levels.

Your question includes the phrase "to build (a) case", so I'll expand beyond just formatting.

I've noticed that people don't click links or even reference posts which are walls of analysis with links. referencing with links and post numbers is less effective. This is fine for your own note taking and planning out your thoughts, but it's for your own open notebook work. No one else will touch it.

So, when presenting your findings, and since the org doesn't automatically include quotes inside of a quoted post, if it is relevant copy and paste it and throw quote tags around it and say who said it. The main quoted post will include a link, so no need to get links. If people want links they can click through. Include the original quote properly so people can easily click through if they're not sure of your context.

Cut out bits that do not refer to what you're talking about, indicate if it's in the middle of text by (snip). Otherwise, if it's just a small section, you can simply quote that one section. Otherwise, leave context as much as is reasonable.

Do things in chronological order as much as possible. Sometimes quoting other major events or tallies that happened around that time frame can help people place when this happened.

Make any point you intend to make in as few sentences as possible, unless it's an important point or requires more explanation to be understood.

The important part is not convincing, but showing what you were thinking, so that thought is also in the reader's mind whether they agree with the assumptions or not. All you're doing is having them consider your POV.

Stuff that is less valuable or alignment indicative can be skipped. If you have a good point make it in fewer quotations (my weakness).

Include things you see which contradict your own point, so you remember that even when you were trying to scum-read this person, you saw them do X which was townie looking, or even when you were trying to town-read this person, you couldn't shake the feeling that Y was scummy. Sometimes you have to see things from both perspectives, and if you can't ignore a scummy thing while town reading someone it could be important, or it might not be. But don't forget it.

Example, when I was originally town reading Slaan, I struggled super hard to town read his JAQ wall. I was concluding and trying to find evidence for, and ultimately, I could barely talk myself into that one. I basically had to resort to "this could just be how he is".

Sometimes it's less of a forced read. Like, I had an odd gut feeling about a dp post, but even at the time, I was not forcing myself to be of two minds about it. It got my attention, so I looked at it in detail, but it wasn't what I thought it was upon analysis and thought that it only looked like something bad in passing.

ISOing someone is tricky on the org. I employed liberal use of ignore mode (for the non-moderator players) on dead townies and strong town reads alike, often as many people as possible, leaving not ignored dead scums and the host's vote counts, and the person in question I wanted to ISO. Call it a poor man's multi-iso.

You can also just control+F name, but the issue is, you'll be reading every single instance of that name and you could miss abbreviated versions of the name. So, like for Cuth for example, search Cuth instead of Cuthillius and you'll also get the abbreviated version.

When looking for just the next instance of this person's post only while not doing an isolated post search (of limited utility on the org...) instead control+F and look for their current total number of posts, join date, under title, or location, something more unique than just their name which will appear to the side of their posts. For example for you, I'd search Sep 2010.

And the meta on Xiahou is relevant because it hasn't changed in a decade, including several games since then, and one very recent one.

It means this is who he is, and it isn't changing. If anything it only more firmly establishes that he's set in his ways. Like Logic, he's not changing.

[Askthepizzaguy]

I'd say it's more likely they're in the top half imo, given the other shenanigans in this game. Potentially the top part below his town line.

Generic, but ok. Who specifically is your last 3 lynches?

[Montmorency]

And the meta on Xiahou is relevant because it hasn't changed in a decade, including several games since then, and one very recent one.

It means this is who he is, and it isn't changing. If anything it only more firmly establishes that he's set in his ways. Like Logic, he's not changing.

The problem is you're both arguing and assuming that it hasn't changed. You see? Ultimately he could have a more generalized approach because he isn't engaged with either the culture or the specific games to a large degree. Why is that less plausible than, 'He should be agenda-setting as mafia because he did that once 10 years ago'?

[Csargo]

Generic, but ok. Who specifically is your last 3 lynches?

Slaan/Xiahou/not sure

[Montmorency]

I tried and failed, new attempt, new approach. How do I go about this?

I think it's a reasonable question. How did the 3 flipped scum interact with each other, read each other, and how did the 3 flipped scum interact with and read the flipped townies? Are there any systematic distinctions to be found? If so, what can we discover if we apply these systematic distinctions between the flipped scum and the living players? Can living players be differentiated according to such a model, and how does this match up to the POE obtained by other means?



Here's the impenetrable morass up to Post 240 + Logic ISO:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I’m looking for systematic differences in how two or all scums interacted with each other and how two or all scums interacted with confirmed townies. Then, I check against the rest of the living players.

Zack (N2)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

GH: 1. Game-start banter Zack to GH: “aren’t ellipses a wolf tell?”
2. GH arrives just after the DP-Zack reaction test event, and reads both as okay:

Zack and dp look okay, Zack seems really natural and flow-y and Dp seems uncomfortable so far which is pretty solidly in his town meta.
Everyone else is either null or confusing.

Pizza approves the post. Zack asks GH, “What do you look for to identify me as a wolf?”
DP responds to GH:

Man, if I ever develop a stronger, more confident town game, I'm going to need to be prepared for endless mislynches as a result.

Monty asks DP to clarify the reaction test, and if it makes Zack townier now for voting DP. Zack explains the reaction test from his own perspective, and DP calls the whole thing NAI. Monty still confused, asks Zack what it’s supposed to mean for the current context.
3. Responding to Zack’s question on how GH sees Zack’s meta: It’s mostly “tone and stuff”, but also that Zack challenges townreads others give him, though he did that before as scum, but GH thinks he wouldn’t pull that trick twice. Zack challenges GH reading based on his “tone”, and offers that he contests Zack townreads as scum all the time because WIFOM.

Logic: 1. Zack banters with Logic on Logic’s banter with GH over GH’s welcome-vote on Logic.
2. In his first big reads post, Logic reads DP town and not teamed with Zack or Pizza.
3. Zack asks Logic about the townreads Kage has been getting from various people. Logic sees only that GH and Winston have townreads on Kage. Logic assumes it’s because they have meta. He won’t rely very much on their reads, but the fact they have such strong ones means Logic should either reconsider on Kage, or look at all 3 more critically. (Obliquely shading GH)

GH (D2)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Zack: 1. Game-start banter Zack to GH: “aren’t ellipses a wolf tell?”
2. Zack includes GH in banter w/ Slaan (forum skins).
3. GH arrives just after the DP-Zack reaction test event, and reads both as okay:

Zack and dp look okay, Zack seems really natural and flow-y and Dp seems uncomfortable so far which is pretty solidly in his town meta.
Everyone else is either null or confusing.

Pizza approves the post. Zack asks GH, “What do you look for to identify me as a wolf?”
4. Responding to Zack’s question on how GH sees Zack’s meta: It’s mostly “tone and stuff”, but also that Zack challenges townreads others give him, though he did that before as scum, but GH thinks he wouldn’t pull that trick twice. Zack challenges GH reading based on his “tone”, and offers that he contests Zack townreads as scum all the time because WIFOM.

Logic: 1. Banters with GH about his vote on him.
4. Reinoe’s first post is a vote for Logic. Zack asks him some questions about off-site identity, notifies him of impending welcome-lynch from GH.
2. Zack asks Logic about the townreads Kage has been getting from various people. Logic sees only that GH and Winston have townreads on Kage. Logic assumes it’s because they have meta. He won’t rely very much on their reads, but the fact they have such strong ones means Logic should either reconsider on Kage, or look at all 3 more critically. (Obliquely shading GH)

Logic (D1)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Starts thread with off-topic banter involving Zack and Slaan.
In sum, banters or tries to with Slaan, Csargo, Zack, GH, Cuth, and Fred.

Zack: 1. Zack banters with Logic on Logic’s banter with GH over GH’s welcome-vote on Logic.
2. Zack responds to the flavor of Pizza’s Logic vote with banter, doesn’t address substance. Pizza banters with Zack, and back again, and again. DP expresses confusion, and Pizza jokingly affirms it. DP still confused; Pizza advises DP vote to lynch Logic. DP susses Pizza according to meta for cavorting around without purpose or analysis, and Zack likes him for it (which DP finds “SPICY”). Pizza contends that he has been doing the most work, but DP complains that if this is so the work is obscured by fluff, though he will check again for the reasoning against Logic. Zack mocks Pizza.
3. Zack declares an unsolicited townlean – “I like DP” – and DP finds it “S P I C Y”. Logic asks DP why he keeps saying that. This comes right after Zack’s vote on DP and the reaction test admission. DP explains the meta behind the reaction test. Zack returns to banter with DP.
X. Zack asks Logic about the townreads Kage has been getting from various people. Logic sees only that GH and Winston have townreads on Kage. Logic assumes it’s because they have meta. He won’t rely very much on their reads, but the fact they have such strong ones means Logic should either reconsider on Kage, or look at all 3 more critically. (Obliquely shading GH)

GH: 1. GH welcome-votes Logic, asks why others haven’t done the same.

Winston (N1)

In post 123, Winston proposes the scum team Zack/Pizza/GH/Monty. DP calls it spicy, Monty notices that Winston seems to have identified the top-posters (exchanging GH for Slaan, and Pizza calls it suspicious.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Zack: 1. Winston voting exchanges with Zack. Mutual bantering and shading.
2. Monty asks Zack what it means that Winton hasn’t claimed miller. Zack implies it means Winston is scum and must die. Or he’s a neutral survivor.
3. Winston votes Pizza and claims scum, asks to be killed. Zack says he’s working on it.
4. Still game start, but Winston has done Zack’s ISO and it is 40 posts with no solving, buddying with the main influencers, and total manipulation. Zack takes it in stride, acts like it’s just what Winston should find. But Winston thinks Zack bit off more than he could chew, and implies TDome. Pizza wonders whether a stalemate could emerge.
5. Zack susses Winston for not having fun. DP questions this. Zack questions back. DP thinks fun Winston is probably town Winston. Zack says that’s the point: Winston stopped being fun earlier than expected. Monty meta-comments on DP’s reaction to this and Pizza’s reaction to Winston’s scum team by affecting ominousness. Winston banters in response. Zack returns the banter. Pizza likes Zack’s reasoning for suss. And more mutual banter.
6. Winston provides leans that list Zack, GH, and Pizza as scum , Monty as 3P, Logic and Csargo null, and Slaan and DP town. Zack asks if any of these are serious, potentially challenging Pizza as scum or DP/Slaan as town, or Monty as 3P. Winston is vaguely serious but not entirely honest. Pizza approves the list. Monty considers the leans strong and votes Zack for challenging them. Zack boos Monty’s post, asking why the leans are brave and calling Monty unusually low-effort.
7. Monty asks Winston what kind of 3P he thinks he is. Winston tries to place him according to level of aggression. Zack banters that his dream role in a game would be SK with BP and cop-immune. DP asks for elaboration on aggression levels. Monty asks if it’s aggression generally or something about his own meta. Winston answers DP, it depends who it is.

GH: 1. GH banters with Winston during game-start; Winston shades GH.

Logic: 1. Winston takes Slaan’s request to lynch Pizza for RP as a joke, but answers seriously why it’s a bad idea with reference to meta. Logic passive-aggressively susses Winston’s post and suggests it sounds like both willingness to lynch Pizza, and an admission that he is town.
2. Zack asks Logic about the townreads Kage has been getting from various people. Logic sees only that GH and Winston have townreads on Kage. Logic assumes it’s because they have meta. He won’t rely very much on their reads, but the fact they have such strong ones means Logic should either reconsider on Kage, or look at all 3 more critically. (Obliquely shading GH)

Kagemusha (N2)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Zack:

GH:

Logic: 1. In his first reads post and followup, Logic thinks Kage’s vote on Slaan seems like a lazy joke vote (esp. since Logic doesn’t see Slaan as scum), makes more than reasonable chance scum. Slaan not scum because:

I read his iso. To me, it looks more like a townie toeing the waters on a new group of people than someone with hidden information.

2. Kage asks Slaan why Logic refuses to explain why he townreads him (Slaan). Logic responds by pointing back to his old 1-sentence account of Slaan, but does not elaborate. Shades Kage for not knowing what “ISO” is.

Reinoe (N3)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Zack: 1. Reinoe’s first post is a vote for Logic. Zack asks him some questions about off-site identity, notifies him of impending welcome-lynch from GH.

GH:

Logic: 1. In his first big reads post, observes without value judgement that Reinoe is the target of DP’s ire, and Reinoe is voting Logic. Logic isn’t sure of the reasons behind the vote, wonders if it’s merely sheeping Pizza or if there are other reasons.

Manasi (D3)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Zack: 1. Zack during game-start asks Manasi to get in thread.

GH:

Logic:

El Barto (D4)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Zack:

GH:

Logic:

Montmorency

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Zack: 1. During game start, Monty says Zack-Winston-Csargo interactions/wagons are scummy. Zack doesn’t get it, says it’s two idiots clicking buttons and shouldn’t jump to w/w conclusions. I declare intent to follow up on the suss later.
2. Monty asks Zack what it means that Winton hasn’t claimed miller. Zack implies it means Winston is scum and must die. Or he’s a neutral survivor.
3. Winston votes Pizza and claims scum, asks to be killed. Zack says he’s working on it. Monty claims it’s scummy to say that because Zack is voting Csargo. Zack responds that early wagons disappear by EOD and we have plenty of time.
4. Monty comments on Winston’s game-start ISO of Zack with approval for prospective TDome.
5. Winston provides leans that list Zack, GH, and Pizza as scum , Monty as 3P, Logic and Csargo null, and Slaan and DP town. Zack asks if any of these are serious, potentially challenging Pizza as scum or DP/Slaan as town, or Monty as 3P. Winston is vaguely serious but not entirely honest. Monty considers the leans strong and votes Zack for challenging them. Zack boos Monty’s post, asking why the leans are brave and calling Monty unusually low-effort. Monty pushes back. Zack asks, “So?”. Pizza comments cryptically, confusing Zack and DP.
6. Zack and DP on the same wavelength for both expressing confusion over Pizza’s RP. Monty calls this buddying. Zack calls it confirmation bias. Monty won’t dignify that with words. Pizza’s response is cryptic. Monty makes the same wavelength claim wrt DP, to Zack’s displeasure.
7. Monty asks Winston what kind of 3P he thinks he is. Winston tries to place him according to level of aggression. Zack banters that his dream role in a game would be SK with BP and cop-immune. DP asks for elaboration on aggression levels. Monty asks if it’s aggression generally or something about his own meta. Winston answers DP, it depends who it is.
8. GH arrives just after the DP-Zack reaction test event, and reads both as okay:

Zack and dp look okay, Zack seems really natural and flow-y and Dp seems uncomfortable so far which is pretty solidly in his town meta.
Everyone else is either null or confusing.

Pizza approves the post. Zack asks GH, “What do you look for to identify me as a wolf?”
DP responds to GH:

Man, if I ever develop a stronger, more confident town game, I'm going to need to be prepared for endless mislynches as a result.

Monty asks DP to clarify the reaction test, and if it makes Zack townier now for voting DP. Zack explains the reaction test from his own perspective, and DP calls the whole thing NAI. Monty still confused, asks Zack what it’s supposed to mean for the current context.

GH: 1. GH arrives just after the DP-Zack reaction test event, and reads both as okay:

Zack and dp look okay, Zack seems really natural and flow-y and Dp seems uncomfortable so far which is pretty solidly in his town meta.
Everyone else is either null or confusing.

Pizza approves the post. Zack asks GH, “What do you look for to identify me as a wolf?”
DP responds to GH:

Man, if I ever develop a stronger, more confident town game, I'm going to need to be prepared for endless mislynches as a result.

Monty asks DP to clarify the reaction test, and if it makes Zack townier now for voting DP. Zack explains the reaction test from his own perspective, and DP calls the whole thing NAI. Monty still confused, asks Zack what it’s supposed to mean for the current context.

Logic: 1. In response to exchanges between Pizza, Zack, and DP following from Pizza’s vote on Logic, Monty asks Logic what he thinks “Pizza is doing”, and what he thinks of DP’s response to what “Pizza is doing”. Pizza buddies Monty.

I don't get it. I've not seen pizza play like this before. I know everything he does has a purpose, but here it feels like he is just playing by the seat if his pants. I'm confused, but I don't know if am am more or less so than Dp.

Choxorn

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Zack:

GH:

Logic: 1. When Logic reappears for EOD, it is ~2 days after his last post. He self-pres votes Choxorn.

DP

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Zack: 1. DP enters thread and Zack banters, but DP wants to take things seriously. Zack keeps it light, lampshading Mafia game-start. DP complains about post count.
2. Zack susses Winston for not having fun. DP questions this. Zack questions back. DP thinks fun Winston is probably town Winston. Zack says that’s the point: Winston stopped being fun earlier than expected.
3. Zack declares an unsolicited townlean – “I like DP” – and DP finds it “S P I C Y”.
4. DP agrees with Zack that Monty’s post voting Zack for challenging Winston’s leans is bad, but DP’s reasoning is that Monty is superficial, fake, and trying too hard to be casual. Monty admits it’s the clipped sentence structure he’s been using.
5. Zack and DP on the same wavelength for both expressing confusion over Pizza’s RP. Monty calls this buddying. Zack calls it confirmation bias. Monty won’t dignify that with words. Pizza’s response is cryptic. Monty makes the same wavelength claim wrt DP, to Zack’s displeasure.
6. Zack responds to the flavor of Pizza’s Logic vote with banter, doesn’t address substance. Pizza banters with Zack, and back again, and again. DP expresses confusion, and Pizza jokingly affirms it. DP still confused; Pizza advises DP vote to lynch Logic. DP susses Pizza according to meta for cavorting around without purpose or analysis, and Zack likes him for it (which DP finds “SPICY”). Pizza contends that he has been doing the most work, but DP complains that if this is so the work is obscured by fluff, though he will check again for the reasoning against Logic. Zack mocks Pizza.
7. Zack votes DP for saying “SPICY”. DP anticipated this and admits to doing it as a reaction test. Zack returns to banter with DP.

GH: 1. GH arrives just after the DP-Zack reaction test event, and reads both as okay:

Zack and dp look okay, Zack seems really natural and flow-y and Dp seems uncomfortable so far which is pretty solidly in his town meta.
Everyone else is either null or confusing.

Pizza approves the post. Zack asks GH, “What do you look for to identify me as a wolf?”
DP responds to GH:

Man, if I ever develop a stronger, more confident town game, I'm going to need to be prepared for endless mislynches as a result.

Monty asks DP to clarify the reaction test, and if it makes Zack townier now for voting DP. Zack explains the reaction test from his own perspective, and DP calls the whole thing NAI. Monty still confused, asks Zack what it’s supposed to mean for the current context.

Logic: 1. Zack declares an unsolicited townlean – “I like DP” – and DP finds it “S P I C Y”. Logic asks DP why he keeps saying that. This comes right after Zack’s vote on DP and the reaction test admission. DP explains the meta behind the reaction test. Zack returns to banter with DP.
2. In response to Pizza defending his RP to DP101, Monty asks Logic what he thinks “Pizza is doing”, and what he thinks of DP’s response to what “Pizza is doing”.

I don't get it. I've not seen pizza play like this before. I know everything he does has a purpose, but here it feels like he is just playing by the seat if his pants. I'm confused, but I don't know if am am more or less so than Dp.

3. In his first big reads post, besides shading Cuth on finding DP awkward, Logic reads DP town and not teamed with Zack or Pizza.

ATPG

I’m not tallying every instance of a direct attack by Pizza on Logic.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Zack: 1. Zack game-start banter. Then Zack claims he doesn’t understand any of Pizza’s starting material (did Pizza “switch accounts with El Barto?”). Pizza disagrees.
2. Winston votes Pizza and claims scum, asks to be killed. Zack says he’s working on it.
3. Pizza comments on Winston’s game-start ISO of Zack with banter.
4. Pizza likes Zack’s reasoning for sussing Winston.
5. Zack asks Pizza about the self-meta he made after XCOM.
6. Zack and DP on the same wavelength for both expressing confusion over Pizza’s RP. Pizza’s response is cryptic. Monty makes the same wavelength claim wrt DP, to Zack’s displeasure.
7. Csargo votes Zack, and Zack tells him it stops being cute at some point. Pizza makes a quip. Csargo makes a quip to Zack. Pizza answers Csargo’s quip with another quip. Csargo banters with Pizza.
8. Zack responds to the flavor of Pizza’s Logic vote with banter, doesn’t address substance. Pizza banters with Zack, and back again, and again. DP expresses confusion, and Pizza jokingly affirms it. DP still confused; Pizza advises DP vote to lynch Logic. DP susses Pizza according to meta for cavorting around without purpose or analysis, and Zack likes him for it (which DP finds “SPICY”). Pizza contends that he has been doing the most work, but DP complains that if this is so the work is obscured by fluff, though he will check again for the reasoning against Logic. Zack mocks Pizza.
9. Zack shades Pizza for agreeing with GH’s read on Zack (i.e. trying to read Zack). But Pizza claims Zack is more readable than most of the game so far.

GH: 1. GH arrives just after the DP-Zack reaction test event, and reads both as okay:

Zack and dp look okay, Zack seems really natural and flow-y and Dp seems uncomfortable so far which is pretty solidly in his town meta.
Everyone else is either null or confusing.

Pizza approves the post. Zack asks GH, “What do you look for to identify me as a wolf?”

Logic: 1. Pizza opens with suss on Logic. Logic is obsequious and self-deprecatory in his responses, even as Pizza summarily votes him and implies his death.
2. In response to exchanges between Pizza, Zack, and DP following from Pizza’s vote on Logic, Monty asks Logic what he thinks “Pizza is doing”, and what he thinks of DP’s response to what “Pizza is doing”. Pizza buddies Monty.

I don't get it. I've not seen pizza play like this before. I know everything he does has a purpose, but here it feels like he is just playing by the seat if his pants. I'm confused, but I don't know if am am more or less so than Dp.

3. In his first big reads post, Logic reads DP town and not teamed with Zack or Pizza. Also, Csargo and Pizza not teamed. One could be wolf, but not both. Pizza feels really weird, not sure if on same team as Logic, playing “by the seat of his pants”.
4. Winston takes Slaan’s request to lynch Pizza for RP as a joke, but answers seriously why it’s a bad idea with reference to meta. Logic passive-aggressively susses Winston’s post and suggests it sounds like both willingness to lynch Pizza, and an admission that he is town.

Csargo

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Zack: 1. Following the exchange with GH, Csargo votes Zack during the game-start flurry. Zack banters and joke-votes Csargo for using ellipses (a “scumtell”, as he asked GH earlier). Csargo banters.
2. Csargo votes Zack, and Zack tells him it stops being cute at some point. Pizza makes a quip. Csargo makes a quip to Zack. Pizza answers Csargo’s quip with another quip. Csargo banters with Pizza.
3. Reinoe comes in accusing Zack and Logic, with ATPG and GH probably town. Csargo disagrees with everything except on Zack (“Zack's quality vs quantity isn't very good at all. There's almost no gamesolving other than OMGUS.”). Zack and Csargo get into a quarrel about Zack and OMGUS. Csargo gives up.

Logic isn't my strong suit. Neither are words. Or making good arguments. I'm bad at everything.

GH: 1. Csargo enters thread by bantering with GH, and GH votes him (RVS).

Logic: 1. Csargo votes Zack, and Zack tells him it stops being cute at some point. Pizza makes a quip. Csargo makes a quip to Zack. Pizza answers Csargo’s quip with another quip. Csargo banters with Pizza. Logic responds to Csargo with more banter.
2. Following Csargo’s forsaking the squabble with Zack, Logic makes wordplay on Csargo’s closing post (“Logic isn’t my strong suit”), banters, and declares a break from the thread.
3. In his first big reads post, Logic thinks Csargo and Pizza not teamed. One could be wolf, but not both.

Fredwood

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Zack:

GH:

Logic: 1. After GH writes up a reads post including shade at Fred, Fred gives GH a flippant response. Logic tries to banter with Fred wrt that flippant response.

Cuthilius

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Zack:

GH:

Logic: 1. After Cuth’s entrance, Logic banters about chess and asks shades a bit by asking why he gets a feeling no on else seems to (i.e. finding DP and his “SPICY” reaction test weird and stiff). Wonders if he is suspicious of DP.

Slaan

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Zack: 1. Game-start banter with Zack.
2. Zack includes GH in banter w/ Slaan (forum skins).

GH: 1. During game-start banter, Slaan mentions he only has experience playing w/ GH and Fred (some confidence reading), and Cuth and Manasi (unsure if able to read).

Logic: 1. In his first reads post and followup, Logic thinks Kage’s vote on Slaan seems like a lazy joke vote (esp. since Logic doesn’t see Slaan as scum), makes more than reasonable chance scum. Slaan not scum because:

I read his iso. To me, it looks more like a townie toeing the waters on a new group of people than someone with hidden information.

2. Kage asks Slaan why Logic refuses to explain why he townreads him (Slaan). Logic responds by pointing back to his old 1-sentence account of Slaan, but does not elaborate. Shades Kage for not knowing what “ISO” is.

Xiahou

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Zack:

GH:

Logic:

Banter is, uh, important for D1 development.

[Slaan]

If parts of the case are just not you at all, then I can understand your reaction. My scum suit might not fit your frame and I was coming on very strong.

Well I know I don't to mechanical long con strategies as mafia, they don't work out very often in my experience. Just get that town read and survive is usually enough for me... ^^. It's probably also the reason I fell this game because I havent been doing any fake claming to draw a NK either which is why it probably looks akward from your position and thus scumreadable or w/e.. oh well :)

So a question to Slaan, Pizza or whomever. Taking out voting record and spew which concerns you more in the current game state (one where we caught 3 scum in the first 2 days):

7 posts total

or

3 posts since Day 1?

One thing I feel like I need to make clear is that me scumreadingi Xiahou is not because of his low number of posts alone. The slight activity fall off... well duno where this is coming from. Seeing all mafia buddies getting killed so quickly could certainly kill motivation which could explain Cuth or Xia's slight drop in postings... on the other hands I slightly scumread Barto because he got more active because for some being solo triggers a WIM 'now I'm gonna show them and own this game' reflex... So the change in activity is overall NAI in my eyes... only difference would be if the content of posts reflected a dropping motivation which would be unusual for town after being so sucessful to match with declining number of posts but I don't think that's the case on anyone here... well on Cuth it kinda fits I guess. He came in yesterday as well to announce he is there and then nothing. Perhaps saw he was in the PoE for many ppl and just essentially gave up? I hope I'm wrong on that read cuz then he just makes us suffer through endless days of lynching down PoE but duno.

[Montmorency]

Well I know I don't to mechanical long con strategies as mafia, they don't work out very often in my experience. Just get that town read and survive is usually enough for me... ^^. It's probably also the reason I fell this game because I havent been doing any fake claming to draw a NK either which is why it probably looks akward from your position and thus scumreadable or w/e.. oh well :)



One thing I feel like I need to make clear is that me scumreadingi Xiahou is not because of his low number of posts alone. The slight activity fall off... well duno where this is coming from. Seeing all mafia buddies getting killed so quickly could certainly kill motivation which could explain Cuth or Xia's slight drop in postings... on the other hands I slightly scumread Barto because he got more active because for some being solo triggers a WIM 'now I'm gonna show them and own this game' reflex... So the change in activity is overall NAI in my eyes... only difference would be if the content of posts reflected a dropping motivation which would be unusual for town after being so sucessful to match with declining number of posts but I don't think that's the case on anyone here... well on Cuth it kinda fits I guess. He came in yesterday as well to announce he is there and then nothing. Perhaps saw he was in the PoE for many ppl and just essentially gave up? I hope I'm wrong on that read cuz then he just makes us suffer through endless days of lynching down PoE but duno.

DP's got the fatigue as well. I think town can lose WIM if there's nothing for them to do, or if they feel a lack of control.

I’ve been in a similar position to cuth recently, haven’t had much WIM in general with the game state being what it is. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a game use PoEs as aggressively as this one before, it’s kind of weird. I think overall though Slaan doesn’t need to be a suspect right now, he’s reacted authentically to the pressure. His currently proposed PoE is fine by me.

[Slaan]

Aha, a guilty one!

11 posts.

He actually unvotes and votes for someone else.

Look how he's tossing shade onto people.

Scum-Xiahou from a long time ago:





Compare to his other town games and this game.

I see... words.

Where are his words when he's town? He's got less than half this amount.

His suspects all game have been Csargo (early game, and now), GH, and Zack. That's all.

Csargo could even be scum. Like, I don't even know if he's voted for a townie so far this game. And he's trying to influence people about this much: zero.

Let me check the other games. I don't remember him being especially wordy, but I'll look.

This for me is the only good argument for Xiahou town imo and for me it's not strong enough.... this game was 11 years ago... and it only showcases that he gives reasons when shading townies... not how he'd go when bussing (not really wanting to kill his partners he might not want to make an actual read). The only thing in our game here where a sort of reason shines through why he is sussing someone is when he quoted a post of Csargo and said 'I dont care for this'.

Idk, I never not lynch this as I'm actually scumreading him for his hitrate... opposed to everyone else where it's more of a 'who is the least town' competition.

[Slaan]

DP's got the fatigue as well. I think town can lose WIM if there's nothing for them to do, or if they feel a lack of control.

Oh sure, again I'm not really reading any alignment off this (well I try to at least, there is a little man sitting in the back of my brain yelling it's dp and he slipped and now he just chills until town completely destroys itself... it's an evil little man :()

[Slaan]

It is still like 80 percent not counting turbos, iirc.

But the list of games as scum is probably 4 times that amount by now.

Hmmm, your overall winrate is <50%, if you have such a high scum winrate then your townwinrate must be around 40-45%... then I wonder if we read you town here why would we listen to your reads?

[Slaan]

Slaan shading Barto, mentions Cuth as being scumread. I think by Slaan, if I'm getting the context right. Though he didn't put Cuth in his list o scums earlier, just in the body.

I was referring to the ppl pushing him, not me thinking he was scum.

[Slaan]

Heh, after pizzas post about Xiahou....:

So then... Csargo?

As with my other votes, it's more gut feeling than deep analysis- but I just feel like he's trying too hard at being vanilla. Slaan gives me a little bit of a scummy vibe too- but glancing at the analysis of others, he at least appears to have a little data to support a town claim. Otherwise... I guess it's just someone who's been flying beneath the radar all game?

This is words. Now if I assume that when he busses he just votes ppl and we he goes after townies he feels compelled that he has to explain his push.... that fits with everything.

[Slaan]

Eh he stopped his ISO right before my best moment of the game, so no.

Ok, you got me, MVP points.

You sussing me is not the best part of the game

[Slaan]

K I'm live! So yea, the case on Cuth looks pretty good from pizza... wanted to ISO cuth as well (after I got my kill on Xia) but guess that's not really required any more...

My last 3 lynches would be Xia/Csargo/... Monty or Cuth... hope I won't ever have to decide between them. In my book the game ends with Xia.

[Fredwood]

Hmmm, your overall winrate is <50%, if you have such a high scum winrate then your townwinrate must be around 40-45%... then I wonder if we read you town here why would we listen to your reads?

Cus people don't trust him as town and lynch him early.

[Slaan]

Cus people don't trust him as town and lynch him early.

So him still living here...

[Montmorency]

Cus people don't trust him as town and lynch him early.

Survival rate is separate from win rate.

Hmmm, your overall winrate is <50%, if you have such a high scum winrate then your townwinrate must be around 40-45%... then I wonder if we read you town here why would we listen to your reads?

It's a bit like Dragonball Z: one day your power level is over 9000, the next it's over 9 billion and the whole universe is going to die.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Hmmm, your overall winrate is <50%, if you have such a high scum winrate then your townwinrate must be around 40-45%... then I wonder if we read you town here why would we listen to your reads?

Undermining credibility, a form of passive aggression.

Mate in one, Slaan?

[Askthepizzaguy]

Then he does it again.

ok, yeah definitely. The computer announces mate now.

Slaan, you were the sith lord, you sneaky pete.

[Dp101]

Undermining credibility, a form of passive aggression.

Mate in one, Slaan?

I saw it as a joke, and nothing more. Don't think he was actually trying to undermine you.

[Slaan]

Undermining credibility, a form of passive aggression.

Mate in one, Slaan?

Really? How could this not be seen as a joke?

:p

[Slaan]

Good ninja post dp ^^

[Askthepizzaguy]

I saw it as a joke, and nothing more. Don't think he was actually trying to undermine you.

DP-1 Kenobi, this time, we do it together.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Slaancellor Paalpatine, Sith Lords are our speciality.

[Slaan]

From the dark site turn you must