Kurdistan

[Kagemusha]

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-mi...-idUSKBN1CI0UV

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017...h-authorities/

Apparently Iraq government and Kurds are on the verge of war. I sure hope this can be avoided.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-mi...-idUSKBN1CI0UV

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017...h-authorities/

Apparently Iraq government and Kurds are on the verge of war. I sure hope this can be avoided.

I doubt it. The Kurds have always had that "chip on the shoulder" towards any government in Baghdad, and now they have had years of sustained military training and doctrine improvements courtesy of USA. I just hope the establishment of Kurdistan will involve relatively few deaths.

[Beskar]

Apparently Iraq government and Kurds are on the verge of war. I sure hope this can be avoided.

Will go pretty badly for the Iraqi's..

[Kagemusha]

Will go pretty badly for the Iraqi's..

I agree, but dont like the idea still as there is lot better fighting to do then this.Both forces are still in standoff at the Kirkuk province border. I think it only pressure/ bluff from Iraqi government.

[Beskar]

I agree, but dont like the idea still as there is lot better fighting to do then this.Both forces are still in standoff at the Kirkuk province border. I think it only pressure/ bluff from Iraqi government.

If I am honest, it would be in Iraq's interest to allow it to become independent. The Peshmerga have fought bravely for themselves and the neighbouring nations (like Iraq) in the battle against ISIS. They have proven themselves to be an potential ally in the region. They have been de-facto independent since Iraq effectively lost control of itself and this is more making that arrangement a formality.

The current borders in the region are an artificial creation from the British and French colonial possession in the area after the fall of the Ottoman Empire and fighting to enforce these borders is silly when there are more natural borders which can flourish and make the region more stable.

The middle-east really needs stability. The various wars, conflicts, civil wars, all cause the area to become toxic and a humanitarian crisis. If this can all be done without a single of a blood, it would be fantastic.

[Kagemusha]

Apparently Iraqi troops have given a deadline of 23:00 gmt today for Peshmerga to withdraw from threir positions at the border of Kirkuk province.

[Husar]

So the two enemies of ISIS that we paid and armed are now going to fight one another?
Is that another foreign policy victory?

I personally see the biggest problem here with the Iraqi side because however imperfect the Kurds may be at times, the Iraqi government failed to protect them and the very least they earned for fighting for themselves and in favor of the failing government would have been a thank you and a place at a table for talks over how to proceed. Just demanding they surrender now seems a bit...power hungry and arrogant?

Perhaps I'm missing something (not an expert on the area and didn't follow every event), but it just doesn't seem like the right thing to do.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Will go pretty badly for the Iraqi's..

The Iraqi's have tanks and MiG Fighters.

There's a very good reason the US hasn't provided the Kurds any real armour.

[HopAlongBunny]

The Iraqi's have tanks and MiG Fighters.
There's a very good reason the US hasn't provided the Kurds any real armour.

Likely of some weight regarding any breakout
The Iraqi army has yet to show the discipline or morale the Kurds' have demonstrated.
I doubt Iraq can defeat the Kurd's within the territory they are claiming. Granted (unlike Iran) it is possibly an opponent they can bleed dry.
Does the Iraqi army have the stomach for it?

[Beskar]

The Iraqi's have tanks and MiG Fighters.

There's a very good reason the US hasn't provided the Kurds any real armour.

Sure stopped ISIS in its tracks.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Sure stopped ISIS in its tracks.

The Iraqi Army at the start of the war were basically what was left of the American's Golf Caddies. The Iraqi army now is battle hardened. The Kurds may still be better motivated but the Iraqi army is no longer apt to crumple at the first sign of pressure, and the Kurds aren't the insane zealots ISIS are.

[Kagemusha]

The Iraqi Army at the start of the war were basically what was left of the American's Golf Caddies. The Iraqi army now is battle hardened. The Kurds may still be better motivated but the Iraqi army is no longer apt to crumple at the first sign of pressure, and the Kurds aren't the insane zealots ISIS are.

Peshmerga have modern Western AT and AA missiles, also APC´s. US alone has given the Peshmerga equivalent of heavy equipment for two US Brigades worth 2.6 billion dollars. They also have tanks, but those are old Soviet types.

[Crandar]

Sure stopped ISIS in its tracks.

Peshmerga also ran away from daesh. They are as untrained, incompetent and corrupted as the Iraqis. Now that the US stopped paying their salaries, things will probably deteriorate.

Their sudden route was a leading factor to the Yazidi genocide. If there's any conflict about Kirkuk without any foreign intervention, chances are that the city will be captured by the army. They will probably can't advance into predimoniantly Kurdish areas, though.


https://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/ori...kurdistan.html

https://www.thedailybeast.com/how-th...-isis-attacked

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Peshmerga have modern Western AT and AA missiles, also APC´s. US alone has given the Peshmerga equivalent of heavy equipment for two US Brigades worth 2.6 billion dollars. They also have tanks, but those are old Soviet types.

You need tanks to fight tanks, and jets to fight jets. AT and AA missiles are secondary defences that can help to deter the enemy or hold them off until your heavy hardware arrives.

Peshmerga also ran away from daesh. They are as untrained, incompetent and corrupted as the Iraqis. Now that the US stopped paying their salaries, things will probably deteriorate.

No, just no.

The Peshmerga withdrew from Sinjar (without protecting the civilian population) where the Iraqi army fled from Mosul, losing a lot of its equipment in the process, where it had all the advantage against IS.

Their sudden route was a leading factor to the Yazidi genocide. If there's any conflict about Kirkuk without any foreign intervention, chances are that the city will be captured by the army. They will probably can't advance into predimoniantly Kurdish areas, though.


https://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/ori...kurdistan.html

https://www.thedailybeast.com/how-th...-isis-attacked

Again, "rout" is not the word. Having said that, without US material support the Kurds can't stand up to the Iraqi army and hold the ground they have taken, though they might decide to bleed the army white.

The bit about stipends was interesting, though, I think that might have more of a knock-on effect for the Kurdish economy than their direct combat power, though.

[Kagemusha]

You need tanks to fight tanks, and jets to fight jets. AT and AA missiles are secondary defences that can help to deter the enemy or hold them off until your heavy hardware arrives.

If you are defending you dont. The Iraqi air force is crap with outdated equipment, while it has been the West which has been providing the air support, which i cant see happening now. Modern AT missiles can handle modern tanks and are the only real option for a low budget force.

[Montmorency]

You need tanks to fight tanks, and jets to fight jets. AT and AA missiles are secondary defences that can help to deter the enemy or hold them off until your heavy hardware arrives.

Distinguishing AT from AA, hasn't defensive AT always held strategic advantages over tank-to-tank, even more so now than before the Cold War?

[Crandar]

No, just no.

The Peshmerga withdrew from Sinjar (without protecting the civilian population) where the Iraqi army fled from Mosul, losing a lot of its equipment in the process, where it had all the advantage against IS.

The article I linked uses repeatedly the word "flee" about the behaviour of commanders and the entire Peshmerga. It doesn't mention any huge equipment loss, because it's not its subject, but it clearly portrays a picture of a "hasty withdrawal" or otherwise rout, where checkpoints were abandoned and local units weren't even informed that their comrades had left.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

The Iraqi's have tanks and MiG Fighters.

There's a very good reason the US hasn't provided the Kurds any real armour.

True, since neither the Iraqi government nor the Turks would have been happy with that level of force improvement.

Nevertheless, the peshmerga seem to be a decidedly better infantry force in terms of quality. Dzhugashvili's crew found such a force tough to beat despite numbers, tanks, and aircraft. The Kurds could well exceed expectations.