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Thread: UK Politics Thread

  1. #61
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK Politics Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    That says everything about the mentality of Leave. If they can get away with it, then it's acceptable.
    That says everything about you: whatever excuse to overturn the simple fact more voted to leave. Everything else is just details - Leavers voted to leave not the method.

    You seem to be happy that all politicians have to do to overturn the will of the people is just to do it poorly and say "oh dear I tried..."

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK Politics Thread

    i've been guilty of this too, but less personalisation of the debate would be useful.

    i will endeavor to return to my more desultory presentation.
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

  3. #63
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    That says everything about you: whatever excuse to overturn the simple fact more voted to leave. Everything else is just details - Leavers voted to leave not the method.

    You seem to be happy that all politicians have to do to overturn the will of the people is just to do it poorly and say "oh dear I tried..."

    One of the leaders of the Leave campaign is currently heading the government. How does that square with that last line?

    What do you think of the government ignoring Parliament's request to see the studies for no deal? It's not an impossible request, as the studies exist, and all the government has to do to comply is to make them available. Is the government's refusal to do so, on the grounds that it would only worry people, acceptable because Parliament is not currently sitting and is thus toothless?

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    I believe yellowhammer is now published.
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

  5. #65
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK Politics Thread

    Somewhat edited. It's a summary, not the detailed study which planners have had access to. Item 15 has been blanked entirely. The title has also been changed according to someone who'd been working on it: it's now titled "HMG Reasonable Worst Case Planning Assumptions", whereas it was originally the base scenario, ie. most likely scenario.

    "Low income groups will be disproportionately affected by any price rises in food and fuel."

    The section on agriculture is also noteworthy.

  6. #66
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Here's section 15.

    15. Facing EU tariffs makes petrol exports to the EU uncompetitive. Industry had plans to mitigate the impact on refinery margins and profitability but UK Government policy to set petrol import tariffs at 0% inadvertently undermines these plans. This leads to significant financial losses and announcement of two refinery closures (and transition to import terminals) and direct job losses (about 2000). Resulting strike action at refineries would lead to disruptions to fuel availability for 1-2 weeks in the regions directly supplied by the refineries.
    Last edited by Pannonian; 09-11-2019 at 21:21.

  7. #67
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK Politics Thread

    Government are now refusing to release personal communications relating to the prorogation of Parliament.

  8. #68
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK Politics Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    i've been guilty of this too, but less personalisation of the debate would be useful.

    i will endeavor to return to my more desultory presentation.
    I do not know if all remainers think the same. Some things are specific to an individual as otherwise I would be engaging in lazy stereotyping.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    One of the leaders of the Leave campaign is currently heading the government. How does that square with that last line?

    What do you think of the government ignoring Parliament's request to see the studies for no deal? It's not an impossible request, as the studies exist, and all the government has to do to comply is to make them available. Is the government's refusal to do so, on the grounds that it would only worry people, acceptable because Parliament is not currently sitting and is thus toothless?
    One of the leaders of the leave campaign is heading the government. Are the other MPs also helping with the process? I think that they have backed several legal campaigns to try to block the government at least gives mixed messages.

    And back to detail of what the government has done... I think that the Government should be concentrating on getting Leave sorted. What the government releases or not doesn't depend on whether the government is in session or not - since the Government is able to block any move as long as they have a majority. The Dodgy Dossier, anyone?

    It would be great if Government - and other MPs could focus on getting things sorted rather than errata.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
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  9. #69
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK Politics Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    I do not know if all remainers think the same. Some things are specific to an individual as otherwise I would be engaging in lazy stereotyping.



    One of the leaders of the leave campaign is heading the government. Are the other MPs also helping with the process? I think that they have backed several legal campaigns to try to block the government at least gives mixed messages.

    And back to detail of what the government has done... I think that the Government should be concentrating on getting Leave sorted. What the government releases or not doesn't depend on whether the government is in session or not - since the Government is able to block any move as long as they have a majority. The Dodgy Dossier, anyone?

    t would be great if Government - and other MPs could focus on getting things sorted rather than errata.

    Are you saying that Parliament should butt out and leave the government alone to do its thing?

  10. #70
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK Politics Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    Are you saying that Parliament should butt out and leave the government alone to do its thing?
    Are you saying parliament should not carry out the will of the populace?

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
    Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
    "If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
    If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute talk with the average voter. Winston Churchill

  11. #71
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK Politics Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    Are you saying parliament should not carry out the will of the populace?

    Isn't it the interpretation of Parliament as to what it should do? On the Parliament website, an MP's first duty is to the country and the people. Secondary duty is to their constituents. Tertiary is to their party.

    If no deal is the will of the people, demonstrate it.

  12. #72
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK Politics Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    Isn't it the interpretation of Parliament as to what it should do? On the Parliament website, an MP's first duty is to the country and the people. Secondary duty is to their constituents. Tertiary is to their party.

    If no deal is the will of the people, demonstrate it.
    Well, at least that's clear.

    Given that even a simple majority of the people is not sufficient then frankly nothing ever will. Any person is going to be "incorrect" in some way or other.

    So this is an intrinsic belief you have that nothing would ever be sufficient. Everything else is detail and none of it could ever matter.

    I'll no more waste my time than I would pop down a Church and argue the existence of God with a Priest.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
    Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
    "If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
    If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute talk with the average voter. Winston Churchill

  13. #73
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK Politics Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    Well, at least that's clear.

    Given that even a simple majority of the people is not sufficient then frankly nothing ever will. Any person is going to be "incorrect" in some way or other.

    So this is an intrinsic belief you have that nothing would ever be sufficient. Everything else is detail and none of it could ever matter.

    I'll no more waste my time than I would pop down a Church and argue the existence of God with a Priest.

    Since you interpret the 2016 result as no deal, will you own the consequences of no deal? Successive governments since 2016 have been attempting to implement the results of that referendum. A subsequent election in 2017 has clarified the mandate of the government in its efforts to implement the result of that referendum. One of the leaders of the Leave campaign took over the government this year. Does this not count as implementing the results of the referendum? Is opposition to the government's efforts in implementing said referendum no longer allowed?

  14. #74
    Formerly Wigferth Ironwall Senior Member Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK Politics Thread

    It's quite clear that certain MP's are, against the will of their constituents and the referendum result, trying to prevent us leaving at all. The English attempt to declare the prorogation illegal was headed by Gina Miller, a wealthy businesswoman with no political mandate and about as far from the "average citizen" as one could get.

    The question at this point is whether we can get a deal or we need to leave without one. The referendum result demanded we leave - many Remainers at the time said there would be no second Referendum and no extension of the time table. Mostly to scare people into voting Remain.

    Those people have since then achieved two extensions and some are pushing for a repeat Referendum.

    On the other side, Boris said he could get a deal, but then he didn't become Prime Minister and Theresa May did, and she said we were leaving on 29th March, and "No deal is better than a bad deal". Having got the worst deal she tried to force it down Parliament's throat, stretching convention to breaking point in the process.

    None of this excuses Boris trying to prorogue for five weeks, but it should put it in context.
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  15. #75
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    It's quite clear that certain MP's are, against the will of their constituents and the referendum result, trying to prevent us leaving at all. The English attempt to declare the prorogation illegal was headed by Gina Miller, a wealthy businesswoman with no political mandate and about as far from the "average citizen" as one could get.

    The question at this point is whether we can get a deal or we need to leave without one. The referendum result demanded we leave - many Remainers at the time said there would be no second Referendum and no extension of the time table. Mostly to scare people into voting Remain.

    Those people have since then achieved two extensions and some are pushing for a repeat Referendum.

    On the other side, Boris said he could get a deal, but then he didn't become Prime Minister and Theresa May did, and she said we were leaving on 29th March, and "No deal is better than a bad deal". Having got the worst deal she tried to force it down Parliament's throat, stretching convention to breaking point in the process.

    None of this excuses Boris trying to prorogue for five weeks, but it should put it in context.
    The likelihood now is that we will leave with no deal. Are you still for leaving now that it's going to be on those terms? And if you are, are you going to accept responsibility for the consequences of leaving on those terms? Your above post indicates that you will not accept not leaving, since you are bitter at those who have worked towards that. If there is still a chance of changing one's mind, I assume that you still would not. So am I right in assuming that, given a choice between no deal and no Brexit, you would still choose Brexit even at the cost of no deal?

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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK Politics Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    The likelihood now is that we will leave with no deal. Are you still for leaving now that it's going to be on those terms?
    slightly bored - because we've been through this a number of times already:

    "yes"
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  17. #77
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    And you characterise Gina Miller as an unelected rich woman. I don't know what their sources are, but Byline Times reports that hedge funds that have previously backed Johnson and Cummings have staked over 8 billion GBP on no deal. Would this be why the PM is so keen on no deal?

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    Formerly Wigferth Ironwall Senior Member Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK Politics Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    The likelihood now is that we will leave with no deal. Are you still for leaving now that it's going to be on those terms? And if you are, are you going to accept responsibility for the consequences of leaving on those terms? Your above post indicates that you will not accept not leaving, since you are bitter at those who have worked towards that. If there is still a chance of changing one's mind, I assume that you still would not. So am I right in assuming that, given a choice between no deal and no Brexit, you would still choose Brexit even at the cost of no deal?
    In the short term No Deal is bad, in the long term continued membership of the EU is worse.

    That's really all that matters, in the end. The rest is just detail.

    Also, I'm not bitter - I think you might be projecting.

    I'm just tired.
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    Formerly Wigferth Ironwall Senior Member Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK Politics Thread

    Prorogation of Parliament deemed "unlawful".

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49810261

    Boris Johnson tilts the delicate balance of our Constitution one way, the Supreme Court tilts it far over the other way.
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  20. #80
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    Prorogation of Parliament deemed "unlawful".

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49810261

    Boris Johnson tilts the delicate balance of our Constitution one way, the Supreme Court tilts it far over the other way.
    Prorogation of Parliament in order to deny Parliament a say in the most drastic constitutional period in living memory is unlawful. That the evidence indicates, indisputably, that the reason given by the executive is false, and that this act of prorogation was politically motivated. If you're going to report the news, report the reasoning given by the Supreme Court as well.

    And one of the fundamental reasons for Brexit given by Brexiteers (I'm not allowed to specify posters any more) is that UK courts should not be subject to foreign-driven laws. This is the highest UK court defending the principle that the UK Parliament cannot be dissolved for political ends. As the ECJ did, it's ruled that the UK Parliament is sovereign. Not the UK executive.

    11-0. And Man City thought they did well.

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    Formerly Wigferth Ironwall Senior Member Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK Politics Thread

    I understand the argument but this raises a crucial question:

    Who has the right to prorogue Parliament if not the Queen on the advice of her ministers?
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."


  22. #82
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    The equivalent of Marbury vs Madison for the UK. Only took you guys 220 years to catch up.

    I said it was clearly undemocratic and you guys said it wasnt. I said Parliament thinks it was undemocratic and you guys said it was the opposite. Now the court unanimously says it was undemocratic and you are saying the entire court must be wrong.

    You just want things to happen your way, like a screaming toddler.
    In all these papers we see a love of honest work, an aversion to shams, a caution in the enunciation of conclusions, a distrust of rash generalizations and speculations based on uncertain premises. He was never anxious to add one more guess on doubtful matters in the hope of hitting the truth, or what might pass as such for a time, but was always ready to take infinite pains in the most careful testing of every theory. With these qualities was united a modesty which forbade the pushing of his own claims and desired no reputation except the unsought tribute of competent judges.

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    Default Re: UK Politics Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    I understand the argument but this raises a crucial question:

    Who has the right to prorogue Parliament if not the Queen on the advice of her ministers?
    They still have that right, but can only use it for the right reasons. This is Abuse of Power 101. Just because Government can advise to prorouge doesnt mean they have the ability to exercise it to the nth degree, there are limitations. Dont pretend limitations equals no right otherwise you will start to lose my respect.
    In all these papers we see a love of honest work, an aversion to shams, a caution in the enunciation of conclusions, a distrust of rash generalizations and speculations based on uncertain premises. He was never anxious to add one more guess on doubtful matters in the hope of hitting the truth, or what might pass as such for a time, but was always ready to take infinite pains in the most careful testing of every theory. With these qualities was united a modesty which forbade the pushing of his own claims and desired no reputation except the unsought tribute of competent judges.

  24. #84
    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK Politics Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    I understand the argument but this raises a crucial question:

    Who has the right to prorogue Parliament if not the Queen on the advice of her ministers?
    The Queen has no power, she is bound to go with the 'recommendation' whatever it entails with a rubberstamp or it causes a constitutional crisis there as well. She is effectively held hostage by this. Therefore, it is the actual 'advice' offered by the prime minister under scrutiny and not the Queen.

    In short, the UK has found tradition like in the USA, to be challenged and thrown out of the window by those who want to exploit it for their own ends: Boris and Trump and their legion of demagogues and backers.

    There are also key sections to the ruling and what it entails. These are broken down here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49813309
    It was delivered in such a precise way, that Boris has no comeback what so ever other than go "I disagree".
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  25. #85
    Formerly Wigferth Ironwall Senior Member Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK Politics Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name View Post
    The equivalent of Marbury vs Madison for the UK. Only took you guys 220 years to catch up.

    I said it was clearly undemocratic and you guys said it wasnt. I said Parliament thinks it was undemocratic and you guys said it was the opposite. Now the court unanimously says it was undemocratic and you are saying the entire court must be wrong.

    You just want things to happen your way, like a screaming toddler.
    I don't think you fully appreciate the implications of the judgement - regardless of what you thought of the prorogation.

    The UK Constitution functions on the basis of a complex interaction of contradictory legal fictions. It's like a house of cards and today's Supreme Court Judgment has brought it that much closer to collapse. Brexit is now probably the most dangerous political crisis since Edward VIII wanted to marry Wallis Simpson.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."


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    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    I don't think you fully appreciate the implications of the judgement - regardless of what you thought of the prorogation.

    The UK Constitution functions on the basis of a complex interaction of contradictory legal fictions. It's like a house of cards and today's Supreme Court Judgment has brought it that much closer to collapse. Brexit is now probably the most dangerous political crisis since Edward VIII wanted to marry Wallis Simpson.
    Magna Carta established the principle that the executive does not have the right to set aside Parliament which is the representative of the kingdom. Every attempt to repeat John's assumption of executive supremacy has been recognised as being against the fibre of the English system. The constitutional monarchy came into being because the last monarch to presume absolute power was run out of town and a suitably obedient replacement invited. The executive only has power because they command the confidence of Parliament. If they do not, they do not have the right to set Parliament aside for the sake of their convenience.

    That's the constitutional principle side of things. The other part of the court judgment is that the PM is a lying so and so.

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    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK Politics Thread

    If the end of this acute mess is reform of the chronic mess we've currently got then that is a good thing. I very much doubt that there will be the root and branch reform required - more a rearranging of the seats so all the vested interests continue. The fiction of Democracy where most votes are meaningless and the Queen has absolute power as long as she exercises none of it.

    This PM is a liar. So was the last one. And the one before that. And so on.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
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  28. #88
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    If the end of this acute mess is reform of the chronic mess we've currently got then that is a good thing. I very much doubt that there will be the root and branch reform required - more a rearranging of the seats so all the vested interests continue. The fiction of Democracy where most votes are meaningless and the Queen has absolute power as long as she exercises none of it.

    This PM is a liar. So was the last one. And the one before that. And so on.

    Still of the opinion that exiting the EU will solve all this?

  29. #89

    Default Re: UK Politics Thread

    Nice Twitter

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Brexit Johnson Supreme Court Prorogue Joke.png 
Views:	18 
Size:	99.4 KB 
ID:	22881

    "Brekekekekexit" is an especially delightful pun because Brexit is kek, if you didn't catch that.

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    If the end of this acute mess is reform of the chronic mess we've currently got then that is a good thing. I very much doubt that there will be the root and branch reform required - more a rearranging of the seats so all the vested interests continue. The fiction of Democracy where most votes are meaningless and the Queen has absolute power as long as she exercises none of it.

    This PM is a liar. So was the last one. And the one before that. And so on.

    Just a general note that this is a naive and powerless sort of dismissal. I also note that it's inconsistent with the belief (which you seem to adopt) that a socialist can plausibly amass enough power to enact fundamental changes to British society. Doesn't it become a mere excuse for self-satisfaction when things continue not to go well? It is more decent and productive to be appalled.
    Vitiate Man.

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  30. #90
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK Politics Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    Still of the opinion that exiting the EU will solve all this?
    Still enjoying asking questions and assigning incorrect beliefs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    Just a general note that this is a naive and powerless sort of dismissal. I also note that it's inconsistent with the belief (which you seem to adopt) that a socialist can plausibly amass enough power to enact fundamental changes to British society. Doesn't it become a mere excuse for self-satisfaction when things continue not to go well? It is more decent and productive to be appalled.
    When I watch Yes Prime Minister from c. 50 years ago and see them playing the same games I am not sure why I should either have optimism or be appalled that things have continued in the same vein. 20 years ago I might have been appalled since it was new to me but now it no longer is. The entire design of the system is there to resist any changes and to return mainly the same collection of MPs to their safe seats.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
    Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
    "If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
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    The best argument against democracy is a five minute talk with the average voter. Winston Churchill

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