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Thread: Macedonia and Greece vow to solve decades-old name dispute

  1. #91
    Coffee farmer extraordinaire Member spmetla's Avatar
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    Default Re: Macedonia and Greece vow to solve decades-old name dispute

    There is still a Südtirol 'freedom' movement:
    http://www.suedtiroler-freiheit.com/...edom-movement/
    The South-Tyrolean
    Freedom Movement – Free Alliance for South-Tyrol “SÜD-TIROLER FREIHEIT – Freies Bündnis für Tirol” is a liberal-patriotic alliance which claims the right of self-determination for the South-Tyrolean people.

    Our country has been occupied since 1918 by the Italian central government but our resistance against this injustice still persists. Approximately 350.000 German-speaking Tyroleans live in this annexed area continuing their struggle to keep alive their traditions and customs, but it is a challenge to maintain our cultural heritage in a foreign national state. Moreover Italy is on the verge of bankruptcy, and even our very rich region suffers greatly because of the economic inability of the Italian central government. From our point of view the only way to remain a prosperous region is to separate from the Italian national state.
    As for Austria, it still does continue to meddle in the politics of Südtirol:
    https://www.ft.com/content/c4d5ef34-...9-0191e45377ec
    Austria’s new coalition government, which includes the far-right Freedom party, has angered politicians in Rome with plans to offer citizenship to people living in the South Tyrol region of north Italy.

    Sebastian Kurz, who became Austrian chancellor on Monday, said he would consult with the country’s southern neighbour over the move, adding that his relations with Italy were “excellent”.

    However, the idea, inserted into the government’s programme at the Freedom party’s request, raised immediate concerns from Italian government officials.

    “What we are hearing today from Vienna is not European music but one of nationalist closure,” Benedetto Della Vedova, undersecretary in the foreign ministry, wrote on Facebook. Angelino Alfano, Italy’s foreign minister, warned that the “delicate” issue should be treated “in terms that are coherent with our history”.

    The clash served as an early warning of the possible tensions created by the entry into the Austrian government of the fiercely nationalist Freedom party.
    Just like with the issue of the Irish border and Northern Ireland the migrant crisis has exasperated the issue of Südtirol. When Austria reintroduced border checks on the Italian border it reopened the reality to those in Südtirol that they were very much part of Italy despite the open EU borders making that less of an issue.
    Last edited by spmetla; 02-13-2018 at 19:53.

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    Default Re: Macedonia and Greece vow to solve decades-old name dispute

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    It is a natural thing for places and cities situated near the border to have names in different languages. Like in Südtirol. But it doesn't mean that Italy has to worry about Austria voicing its claim to it.
    You just omitted 2/3rds of my post you quoted. I do not see the use of Südtirol as a problem as long as Italy, Austria and Germany are all in the EU and NATO and guarantee each others borders. Only, as I already wrote, if that would be not the case anymore and e.g. the nationalist movements in Austria and Germany gain more votes and those politians consciously used "Südtirol" to imply that the area is just the southern tip of Tyrol (the one in Austria) and belongs to the other side of the border - then I could see Italy get worried.

    Just like Tyrol Macedonia is split by a border and depending on who uses that name the state on the other side of the border would not be amused.

    As you have Ukraine as location what about Russians using names like "little Russia" instead of Ukraine that imply that Ukraine is not really a state of it’s own but a part of the triunion of Great Russians, White Russians and Little Russians? I mean the Ukraine already has seen what can happen if a neighbour sees part of another state as part of his own...

  3. #93
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Macedonia and Greece vow to solve decades-old name dispute

    Quote Originally Posted by ConjurerDragon View Post
    You just omitted 2/3rds of my post you quoted. I do not see the use of Südtirol as a problem as long as Italy, Austria and Germany are all in the EU and NATO and guarantee each others borders. Only, as I already wrote, if that would be not the case anymore and e.g. the nationalist movements in Austria and Germany gain more votes and those politians consciously used "Südtirol" to imply that the area is just the southern tip of Tyrol (the one in Austria) and belongs to the other side of the border - then I could see Italy get worried.

    Just like Tyrol Macedonia is split by a border and depending on who uses that name the state on the other side of the border would not be amused.

    As you have Ukraine as location what about Russians using names like "little Russia" instead of Ukraine that imply that Ukraine is not really a state of it’s own but a part of the triunion of Great Russians, White Russians and Little Russians? I mean the Ukraine already has seen what can happen if a neighbour sees part of another state as part of his own...
    Russia may use the name of "Little Russia" with a derogatory purpose INSTEAD of the modern/real name (Ukraine). Macedonia doesn't have any other name, Südtirol as a rule has two names for its locations. That is why I don't see a problem in parallel using of different lanuage names for places with an ethnically/linguistically mixed population.
    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
    The article exists for a reason yes, I did not write it...

  4. #94
    The drunken Duke Member Suraknar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Macedonia and Greece vow to solve decades-old name dispute

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    Then explain please what you mean by "stealing names". When ancestors of modern FYROM citizens came to the land and populated it and took its name - it is a theft. When ancestors of modern Egyptians (aka Arabs) came to the city and populated it and took its name it is not a theft, it is a matter of pride for the former owners.
    Lets give some continuation here.

    First of all you seem to not be fully aware of the situation. This conflict between Greece and FYROM is not only about the name.

    When FYROM made its constitution after the break up of Yugoslavia, it put in its Constitution a claim of territory which extends from Italy to and including northern Greece.

    It made that claim via revisionist History claiming that the people there are descendants of the Ancient Macedonians and therefore the territory belongs to them and their purpose of existing as a country has as goal to reclaim what is "theirs" via the ancestral link to Ancient Macedonians.

    They erected Statues of Alexander the Great, Phillip II and even tried to appropriate of the emblem of Ancient MAcedonians for their flag to validate the ancestral link and validate the present claim and justify the constitution.

    And you expect Greece and Greek people to accept this?

    Not even Itally likes it as part of their claim extends to Italian territory.

    Do you really think that Greek people are that gullible and will sit idle while theft is being perpetrated?


    This is where the shoe pinches! You still consider this country "your house"? You should have started with it then we all would understand your argument much better.

    As for stealing: if you lived in Elm Street and then moved out and another family came to live in your house they have all the right to call themselves Elm Street dwellers and find out more about its history and be proud of it - because THEY LIVE THERE NOW. It is as much their street and history as it was (and is) yours. All the USA follow this principle, I believe.

    Anyway, your country is called Greece. They "try to usurp" the name of Macedonia, not Greece.
    This is maybe where your show pinches. You are not fully aware of what is going on and you are twisting everything in to a trivial thing claiming that the Greek people somehow are over reacting about a name. And in my analogy I meant my Home being Greece, Fyrom came to steal from Greek History to form its self based on a lie. And it is not correct to do this..and the Grek people were provoked by that action.

    And now now that they have been provoked, not only should the Ancient Macedonian Links be corrected and removed (Alexander The Great statues, Emblems and Airport names removed and changed), but most Greeks will also claim that no use whatsoever should remain whatsoever.

    I expect Tsipras to accept something like "New Macedonia" or "Vardar Macedonia" these are all names that are being evaluated by both sides. But there will be no compromise about the claims of territory in the constitution of FYROM.

    The present people of the region have no claim to the Ancient Macedonia, not its ancestral territory in Greece in Bulgaria in Albania, Serbia, Croatia or Italy.

    I personally still think that "Republic of Vardar" would solve so many problems and let the people of FYROM create their own Identity that they can be proud of and join in own respect and all equality the rest of nations and prosper all together in peace.
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  5. #95
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Macedonia and Greece vow to solve decades-old name dispute

    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
    When FYROM made its constitution after the break up of Yugoslavia, it put in its Constitution a claim of territory which extends from Italy to and including northern Greece.
    It made that claim via revisionist History claiming that the people there are descendants of the Ancient Macedonians and therefore the territory belongs to them and their purpose of existing as a country has as goal to reclaim what is "theirs" via the ancestral link to Ancient Macedonians.
    They erected Statues of Alexander the Great, Phillip II and even tried to appropriate of the emblem of Ancient MAcedonians for their flag to validate the ancestral link and validate the present claim and justify the constitution.
    Here I link an article from a Greek source and the constitution of The Country Which You Want To Have Some Other Name.
    http://greece.greekreporter.com/2018...-alarm-greece/
    http://www.sobranie.mk/the-constitut...macedonia.nspx

    I would like you to show parts in the latter which will substatiate your claims about Macedonean territorial claims.

    But from what you say and slogans I saw Greeks carrying ("Macedonia is Greece") I would rather say the opposite: it looks like Greeks still dream of absorbing the lands which they still consider their own.

    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
    This is maybe where your show pinches. You are not fully aware of what is going on and you are twisting everything in to a trivial thing claiming that the Greek people somehow are over reacting about a name. And in my analogy I meant my Home being Greece, Fyrom came to steal from Greek History to form its self based on a lie. And it is not correct to do this..and the Grek people were provoked by that action.
    All this could be accepted from a country called Macedonia. But the country who voices its indignation is called Greece. Rename your country into Macedonia and then go to war about plagiarism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
    And now now that they have been provoked, not only should the Ancient Macedonian Links be corrected and removed (Alexander The Great statues, Emblems and Airport names removed and changed), but most Greeks will also claim that no use whatsoever should remain whatsoever.

    The present people of the region have no claim to the Ancient Macedonia, not its ancestral territory in Greece in Bulgaria in Albania, Serbia, Croatia or Italy.
    If we start talking about ancestral territories we will have to uproot and expel a good many modern nations - all those living in the Americas, the English, Arabs (outside KSA), Hungarians...

    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
    I personally still think that "Republic of Vardar" would solve so many problems and let the people of FYROM create their own Identity that they can be proud of and join in own respect and all equality the rest of nations and prosper all together in peace.
    I personally think that Greece SHOULD solve so many problems it has currently which will help her keep some of its ancestral territory from being sold to pay off the debts.
    Last edited by Gilrandir; 03-01-2018 at 08:15.
    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
    The article exists for a reason yes, I did not write it...

  6. #96
    Horse Archer Senior Member Sarmatian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Macedonia and Greece vow to solve decades-old name dispute

    Consitution of FYROM actually states explicitly:

    1. The Republic of Macedonia has no territorial pretensions towards any neighboring state.

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    Member Member Crandar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Macedonia and Greece vow to solve decades-old name dispute

    Girlandir is right, there are no territorial claims in the Constitution. In fact, article has been amended since 1995 to include the sentence below:
    1. The Republic of Macedonia has no territorial pretensions towards any neighboring state.
    I doubt even the original version spoke about expansion in Italy or Greece. Can you provide a source for that?
    Everyone has some genetic ancestry to Philip.
    Given how the core of the kingdom was populated at large by Slavic-speaking populations (even after the population exchange of 1923), it is not absurd to assume any genetic continuation, on the basis of slavicised Romans and intermarriage. Even if there wasn't, these arguments are not based on international laws or legal precedents.

  8. #98
    Coffee farmer extraordinaire Member spmetla's Avatar
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    Default Re: Macedonia and Greece vow to solve decades-old name dispute

    They erected Statues of Alexander the Great, Phillip II and even tried to appropriate of the emblem of Ancient MAcedonians for their flag to validate the ancestral link and validate the present claim and justify the constitution.

    And you expect Greece and Greek people to accept this?
    Of course they erect statures to Alexander the Great and Philip II. They might not be his cultural descendants but it is part of the local history that their region participated in. They are a new nation and are trying to create a sense of national identity that is not Bulgarian or Serbian which pretty much requires them to stretch back to beyond their ethnic groups entry into the region. The US when it was formed (after the adoption of the constitution) gave itself all the airs of the Roman Republic as part of trying to create a new identity apart from just being English colonists that aren't really English anymore.

    As for Greeks having to accept it, well yes, you need to. It's another sovereign country, you can't really dictate what they do. Honestly it'd probably be in your interest in encouraging it. The more Greek they think they are the more likely they'll identify with the actual Hellenic Greeks. The height of Hellenic civilization was when Greek thoughts and ideas were spread throughout the near east and not exclusively to ethnic greeks and macedonians. Encourage and welcome the FYROM to think they are greeks as well and you'll a friendlier partner to the north instead of a hotbed of unrest and resentment. Expand the 'Greek Franchise' to your own cultural benefit, promote your Greek language and history to your own benefit. The FYROM is too poor and weak to be a threat to the Hellenic Republic, try using soft power to make it a friend though.

    "Am I not destroying my enemies when I make friends of them?"
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    Horse Archer Senior Member Sarmatian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Macedonia and Greece vow to solve decades-old name dispute

    Well, modern Macedonians don't identify themselves with the Hellenes, but rather their own distorted view of ancient Macedonians who supposedly conquered Greece.

    They're trying to take Macedonians out of Hellenic culture group.

    It is silly beyond measure, but not illegal.

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  10. #100
    Member Member Crandar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Macedonia and Greece vow to solve decades-old name dispute

    Haha, we conquered it and we are proud of it, bloody, stinky southerners. Is there anything sweeter than Macedonians civilizing southern barbarians in Chaeronea or forcing Demosthenes to drink tsipouro? They deserved everything, hadn't been for pesky Romans, the capital would be Thessaloniki, not that slum known as Athens. Fun and real fact: In the Aristotle University of Thessaloniki, there is a great interest for one of our favourite Roman generals, Sulla. Can you guess why?
    Last edited by Crandar; 03-02-2018 at 22:48.

  11. #101
    The drunken Duke Member Suraknar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Macedonia and Greece vow to solve decades-old name dispute

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    All this could be accepted from a country called Macedonia. But the country who voices its indignation is called Greece. Rename your country into Macedonia and then go to war about plagiarism.

    If we start talking about ancestral territories we will have to uproot and expel a good many modern nations - all those living in the Americas, the English, Arabs (outside KSA), Hungarians...
    I think you are promoting a false narrative here. The issue with Macedonia is not new, it dates back to the aftermath of WWII and even a bit before, it became more serious after the break-up of Yugoslavia.

    Your false narrative here consists of claiming that Greece is the apparent aggressor of this whole issue when in fact Greece is the defender.

    If that was the case then, FYROM would not have made any Amendments to its constitution or take steps to change its Flag and drop Claims to ancient Macedon. It has taken these steps because it was pointed out that it was in the wrong and now it is making amense.

    Consitution of FYROM actually states explicitly:

    1. The Republic of Macedonia has no territorial pretensions towards any neighboring state.
    This is actually an amendment to the constitution which came later than the initial declaration of 1991.

    And this is all positive, and helps in advancing towards a resolution of this dispute between the two countries.

    ------------------------------------------------------
    ------------------------------------------------------

    Now as far as the people of Greece which has issues with all this it all stems form the following.

    Present day citizens of FYROM have no relation to the Ancient Greek people of Macedon.

    On the other hand there are 2.5 million Greeks of today that have a relation to the Ancient Greeks of Macedon, live in the Province of Macedonia in Greece and call themselves Macedonians... Just as I call myself Athenian. We are still Greeks.

    I don't know if you can understand this but even today when Greeks meet with one another one fo the first questions we will ask is from which part of Greece are you? "Ahh you are Spartan" or "Ahh you are Macedonian", or "Ahh you are Pontian" or "Ahh you are Cretean, Lemnoan, Thessalian, Epirotic etc" is quite common.

    Greeks even today identify with their region. Athenians, Corinthians, Macedonians, Spartans etc.

    And the Macedonians are concerned when a neighboring country calls itself the same as them without being them...

    I do not want to rewrite what has already been written but instead let me copy past a few passages form here:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedo...orial_concerns


    According to historian Eugene Borza, the ethnic Macedonians, being "a newly emergent people in search of a past to help legitimise their precarious present" whose ethnicity developed in the twentieth century, had no history and needed one.[221]

    Greeks argue that the name Macedonia is historically inseparably associated with Greek culture, ever since the ancient kingdom of Macedonia and the ancient Macedonians. They therefore consider that only Greeks have a historical right to use the name today, since the modern southern Slavs arrived 1,000 years after that kingdom, lacking any relation to ancient Macedonia or its Greek culture.[37] Efforts by ethnic Macedonians to construct a narrative of ethnic continuity linking them to the ancient Macedonians in various ways[222] and symbolic actions underlining such claims, such as the public use of the Vergina sun symbol as a flag of the Republic of Macedonia, or the renaming of Skopje Airport to "Alexander the Great Airport"[223] meet strong criticism from the Greek side, much of the international media that report on the issue, and even from moderate political views in the Republic of Macedonia itself.[224][225][226]

    A 22-meter tall statue, "Man on a Horse," depicting Alexander the Great was erected in 2011 in Skopje, the capital city of the Republic of Macedonia, as part of a historical public arts building campaign.[227][228] Greece scornfully characterised the effort, with the foreign ministry commenting on the size of the statue as "inversely proportional to seriousness and historical truth".[229][230] The project received criticism by the European Union, calling it "not helpful"[229] as well as by Skopje architects and ethnic Macedonian academics[230] and politicians[81] commenting on the aesthetic outcome and the semantics of such a move.

    Some Greek historians emphasise the late emergence of a "Macedonian" nation, often pointing to 1944 as the date of its "artificial" creation under Josip Broz Tito, discounting earlier roots in the 19th and early 20th century.[231]

    The Greek view also stresses that the name Macedonia as a geographical term historically used to refer typically to the southern, Greek parts of the region (including the capital of the ancient kingdom, Pella), and not or only marginally to the territory of today's Republic. They also note that the territory was not called Macedonia as a political entity until 1944.

    Several hundred international and Greek classical scholars have lobbied for the historical concerns regarding the name dispute to be reflected in US policy.[232][233]

    [...]

    During the Greek Civil War, in 1947 the Greek Ministry of Press and Information published a book, Ἡ ἐναντίον τῆς Ἑλλάδος ἐπιβουλή (Designs on Greece), including documents and speeches on the ongoing Macedonian issue, many translations from Yugoslav officials. It reports Josip Broz Tito using the term "Aegean Macedonia" on 11 October 1945 in the buildup to the Greek Civil War; the original document is archived in ‘GFM A/24581/G2/1945’. For Athens in 1947, the "new term, Aegean Macedonia", (also "Pirin Macedonia"), was introduced by Yugoslavs. Contextually, this observation indicates this was part of the Yugoslav offensive against Greece, laying claim to Greek Macedonia, but Athens does not seem to take issue with the term itself. The 1945 date concurs with Bulgarian sources.

    Tito's wartime representative to Macedonia, General Tempo (Svetozar Vukmanovic), is credited with promoting the usage of the new regional names of the Macedonian region for irredentist purposes. Concerns over territorial implications of the usage of the term "Macedonian" were expressed as early as 1944 by US diplomats.[234]

    Greece suspects that the Republic of Macedonia has territorial ambitions in the northern Greek provinces of Macedonia. This has been a Greek concern for decades; as far back as 1957, the Greek government expressed concern about reported Yugoslav ambitions to create an "independent" People's Republic of Macedonia with the Greek city of Thessaloniki as its capital,[235] ambitions that now exist amongst citizens of the Republic of Macedonia.[236]

    Loring M. Danforth ascribes the goal of a "free, united, and independent Macedonia" including "liberated" Bulgarian and Greek territory to a fraction of extreme Macedonian nationalists, whereas more moderate ethnic Macedonians recognise the inviolability of the borders but regard the presence of ethnic Macedonians in the neighbouring countries as an issue of minority protection.[237]

    Greek analysts[238] and politicians[239] have expressed concerns that overseas observers tend to overlook or not to understand the severity of the perceived territorial threat and tend to misunderstand the conflict as a trivial issue over just a name.

    The concerns are further reinforced by the fact that extremist ethnic Macedonian nationalists of the "United Macedonia" movement have expressed irredentist claims to what they refer to as "Aegean Macedonia" (in Greece),[235][240][241] "Pirin Macedonia" (in Bulgaria),[242] "Mala Prespa and Golo Brdo" (in Albania),[243] and "Gora and Prohor Pchinski" (in Serbia).[244]

    Greek Macedonians, Bulgarians, Albanians and Serbs form the overwhelming majority of the population of each part of the region respectively.

    Schoolbooks and official government publications in the Republic have shown the country as part of an unliberated whole.[222][245][246][247]

    In April 2008, Foreign Minister of Greece Dora Bakoyannis complained about the prime minister of the Republic of Macedonia Nikola Gruevski appearing in a photograph, by a map of "Greater Macedonia". The complaint was made inside an article published at Wall Street Journal, regarding the NATO ascension talks.[107]

    [...]

    According to both the official Greek position[37] and various public demonstrations in Greece[248] and the Greek diaspora,[10] the Greek Macedonians feel that their right to self-determination is violated by what they regard as the monopolisation of their name by a neighbouring country.

    The strong regional identity of the Macedonians was emphasised by the Prime Minister of Greece, Kostas Karamanlis, who in January 2007 during a meeting of the Council of Europe in Strasbourg declared that:

    I am a Macedonian, just like two and a half million Greeks.[249]

    In Greece, the extreme position on the issue suggests that there must be "no Macedonia in the title" of a neighbouring country.[250]

    Professor Danforth reports:

    From the Greek nationalist perspective, then, the use of the name "Macedonian" by the "Slavs of Skopje" constitutes a "felony", an "act of plagiarism" against the Greek people. By calling themselves "Macedonians" the Slavs are "stealing" a Greek name; they are "embezzling" Greek cultural heritage; they are "falsifying" Greek history. As Evangelos Kofos, a historian employed by the Greek Foreign Ministry told a foreign reporter, "It is as if a robber came into my house and stole my most precious jewels—my history, my culture, my identity".[237]

    More moderate positions suggest that a disambiguating element should be added to the name of the neighbouring state and its people (such as "Vardar" or "New"), so as to illustrate the distinction between not just the two, but all groups of self-identifying Macedonian

    [...]

    The contemporary region of Macedonia is a wider region in the Balkan peninsula that spans across several modern states, mainly Greece (Greek Macedonia), Bulgaria (Blagoevgrad province), the Republic of Macedonia, and Albania (around Lake Ohrid). The definite borders of the region are vague, but most contemporary geographers agree on its general location.[256] There are several ethnic groups in this region, mostly living within their respective states, all of which are technically "Macedonians" in the regional sense. The Republic itself, has a substantial minority (25.2%) of ethnic Albanians who are "Macedonians" both in the regional sense, and as legal citizens of the Republic.[251][257] However, in a Balkans where ethnicity rather than nationhood defines peoples' identity, Albanians are never referred to (or refer to themselves) as Macedonians.[258]

    The Greek position suggests that the monopolisation of the name by the Republic and its citizens creates semiological confusion, as it becomes increasingly difficult to disambiguate which "Macedonia", which "Macedonians" and what "Macedonian language" are referred to in each occasion.

    According to a source Bulgarians living in Blagoevgrad province (Bulgarian Macedonia) are reported to not identify themselves with their regional term "Macedonians" (Macedonian Bulgarians), so as not to be confused with the ethnic Macedonians.[254] According to other sources the traditional use of the term "Macedonians" in Bulgaria as a regional designation continues.[259][260]

    Macedo-Romanians (Aromanians) are often called "Machedoni" by Romanians, as opposed to the citizens of Macedonia, who are called "Macedoneni".

    The Greek Macedonians demonstrate a strong regional identity and identify themselves as plain Macedonians, who live in plain Macedonia, speaking a Macedonian dialect of modern Greek.


    As you can understand this is at the same time a relativelly new issue in the course of history since ancient times but also one that has been there for along time in the last 100 year or so, and especially amplified post WWII.

    In addition concerns over territorial claims come from certain part s of FYROM organizations such as ANSOM and the claim to "greater Macedonia" or "United Macedonia"...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Macedonia

    The article exists for a reason yes, I did not write it...Greece does not aspire to any of this, Greece is not the aggressor in this whole issue here.

    In any case, positive steps are being made and I hope for a fast resolution in the near future.

    CHeers!
    Last edited by Suraknar; 03-18-2018 at 09:42.
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  12. #102
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Macedonia and Greece vow to solve decades-old name dispute

    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
    Your false narrative here consists of claiming that Greece is the apparent aggressor of this whole issue when in fact Greece is the defender.
    I would be vey much obliged if you quoted any post of mine containing "aggressor" referring to Greece.

    What I claim is: there is a land called Macedonia. I don't see any sensible reason why the country located on this land can't be called Macedonia or why the citizens of this country can't be called Macedoneans. If someone outside this country doesn't like it - well, sue them, gather demonstrations denouncing them - they will do whatever they like because they live there NOW.
    Unless you want to take that land back into the laps of Mother Greece.

    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
    If that was the case then, FYROM would not have made any Amendments to its constitution or take steps to change its Flag and drop Claims to ancient Macedon. It has taken these steps because it was pointed out that it was in the wrong and now it is making amense.

    This is actually an amendment to the constitution which came later than the initial declaration of 1991.
    You said THERE ARE territorial claims (especially to Italy) in the constitution NOW. Since there are no claims NOW, there is no sense talking about any CURRENT claims FYROM has.

    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
    Now as far as the people of Greece which has issues with all this it all stems form the following.

    Present day citizens of FYROM have no relation to the Ancient Greek people of Macedon.

    On the other hand there are 2.5 million Greeks of today that have a relation to the Ancient Greeks of Macedon, live in the Province of Macedonia in Greece and call themselves Macedonians... Just as I call myself Athenian. We are still Greeks.

    I don't know if you can understand this but even today when Greeks meet with one another one fo the first questions we will ask is from which part of Greece are you? "Ahh you are Spartan" or "Ahh you are Macedonian", or "Ahh you are Pontian" or "Ahh you are Cretean, Lemnoan, Thessalian, Epirotic etc" is quite common.

    Greeks even today identify with their region. Athenians, Corinthians, Macedonians, Spartans etc.
    So regional identity is the first thing you inquire about from your fellow countryman? Is it THAT important to you? Then this city state mentality persists till nowadays.

    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
    And the Macedonians are concerned when a neighboring country calls itself the same as them without being them...
    We are going around in circles. Do you want me to repeat all that stuff about New Zealand, Luxemburg, California, New Mexico....

    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
    In addition concerns over territorial claims come from certain part s of FYROM organizations such as ANSOM and the claim to "greater Macedonia" or "United Macedonia"...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megali_Idea
    The nationalist Golden Dawn party, which has had a recent surge in electoral support, supports the Megali Idea.


    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
    The article exists for a reason yes, I did not write it...
    This is the best argument ever. It reminds me of some of my students who when asked some question try to read what is written in their notebooks and when I call their attention to the mistakes they say: "But it is written that way in here".
    Last edited by Gilrandir; 03-18-2018 at 15:11.
    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
    The article exists for a reason yes, I did not write it...

  13. #103
    The drunken Duke Member Suraknar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Macedonia and Greece vow to solve decades-old name dispute

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    I would be vey much obliged if you quoted any post of mine containing "aggressor" referring to Greece.

    What I claim is: there is a land called Macedonia. I don't see any sensible reason why the country located on this land can't be called Macedonia or why the citizens of this country can't be called Macedoneans. If someone outside this country doesn't like it - well, sue them, gather demonstrations denouncing them - they will do whatever they like because they live there NOW.
    Unless you want to take that land back into the laps of Mother Greece.
    Normally there would not be a problem to this, unless there is another people who already have claim and use that name. And there is. This is the crux of the issue here.

    The name was already taken, how can you go and take it for yourself without verifying?

    This is why there is a "Dispute" in the first place.

    You said THERE ARE territorial claims (especially to Italy) in the constitution NOW. Since there are no claims NOW, there is no sense talking about any CURRENT claims FYROM has.
    You yourself posted an article which explains what elements remain in Dispute from the Greek perspective. Thes eare nto my claims, I follow the Articles which expose the political disagreement.

    Now as for Italy, this is in relation to the "Great Macedonia" or "United Macodonia", some would claim that it went all the way present day Italy since that is how far Ancient Macedonia expanded including Illyria etc.

    While the claim is not explicitly expressed in the Constitution per se, the constitution, and according to the article you posted, contains elements which favor or support claims by organizations who would like to work towards claiming all that territory.

    So regional identity is the first thing you inquire about from your fellow countryman? Is it THAT important to you? Then this city state mentality persists till nowadays.
    No it is not that important to me in the sense that it will not change how a relationship with another person will go or will not be basis for any sort of judgement. But I expressed this to explain... a behavioral reality which still exists in Greece.

    I am sure this behavior also exists in other countries. In the States as much as in Ukraine etc. Are you a New Yorker or a Texan? From Alabama or from California? People associate to regions and local traditions or ways of thinking. Expressing that helps in better understanding or one another towards certain issues.

    In Greece this goes back thousands of years.

    But also I express this to show you tahtthere ra many people who still do identify as Macedonian, and they are not happy about their identity being usurped by another country.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megali_Idea
    The nationalist Golden Dawn party, which has had a recent surge in electoral support, supports the Megali Idea.
    Yes this is what extremists support, they are not the majority of the population and mainstream Greeks do not have such aspirations. History is what it is we accept and move forward.

    Unless the other tries to cause trouble to us. Like Turkey now seemingly seeking a War. If that happens you can bet that Greeks will push to retake what was traditionally Greek, including Constantinople and much of Coastal present day Turkey.

    Greece will not draw first blood or initiate a war, but you can bet that it will finish it.


    This is the best argument ever. It reminds me of some of my students who when asked some question try to read what is written in their notebooks and when I call their attention to the mistakes they say: "But it is written that way in here".
    You misunderstand again. I am simply pointing to a fact. And not denying anything. You are arguing with me as if I am the main instigator here and I am not. I given you my reasons according to my thinking and feelings on the issue. I am not expecting your approval.

    Cheers!
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    Default Re: Macedonia and Greece vow to solve decades-old name dispute

    There's a parody song out there waiting to be written, focusing upon 'the very model of a modern Macedonian.'
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken

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    Default Re: Macedonia and Greece vow to solve decades-old name dispute

    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
    Normally there would not be a problem to this, unless there is another people who already have claim and use that name. And there is. This is the crux of the issue here.

    The name was already taken, how can you go and take it for yourself without verifying?

    This is why there is a "Dispute" in the first place.
    I have already given plethora of examples when "the already taken" names are used again. Normally, it doesn't cause such problems.



    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
    Now as for Italy, this is in relation to the "Great Macedonia" or "United Macodonia", some would claim that it went all the way present day Italy since that is how far Ancient Macedonia expanded including Illyria etc.

    While the claim is not explicitly expressed in the Constitution per se, the constitution, and according to the article you posted, contains elements which favor or support claims by organizations who would like to work towards claiming all that territory.
    This is your reading of the Constitution in question. It doesn't mean that this is what others (including those who wrote it) see in it. Moreover, I'm sure that such statements of support for "compatriots without" can be found in other constitutions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
    Yes this is what extremists support, they are not the majority of the population and mainstream Greeks do not have such aspirations.
    I believe the same can be said of those who Greeks don't identify as Macedoneans. Only extremists speak of territorial claims. If the Greek extremists don't bother you, why should those across your northern border do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
    Unless the other tries to cause trouble to us. Like Turkey now seemingly seeking a War. If that happens you can bet that Greeks will push to retake what was traditionally Greek, including Constantinople and much of Coastal present day Turkey.

    Greece will not draw first blood or initiate a war, but you can bet that it will finish it.
    Now it sounds too much warlike. First "Drang nach Norden", now "Drang nach Osten". Are you sure that only extremists in Greece speak of territorial claims?
    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
    The article exists for a reason yes, I did not write it...

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