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https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/m...ispute-n836396
Originally Posted by :
LONDON — What's in a name? For the uneasy European neighbors of Macedonia and Greece, quite a lot actually.
In one of the strangest international disputes still playing out on the world stage, these two countries have been quarreling for more than a quarter of a century about what Macedonia should be called.
It's not just symbolic: The dispute has seen Greece block Macedonia's potential accession to NATO and the European Union, as well as imposing a brief but crippling trade embargo in the mid-1990s........
Some good news for a change. Would be nice for Macedonia to join NATO, they've certainly supported the Afghan mission among UN ones as well. Would also be good for friendly relations between Macedonia and Greece not to forgot Albania too.LONDON — What's in a name? For the uneasy European neighbors of Macedonia and Greece, quite a lot actually.
In one of the strangest international disputes still playing out on the world stage, these two countries have been quarreling for more than a quarter of a century about what Macedonia should be called.
It's not just symbolic: The dispute has seen Greece block Macedonia's potential accession to NATO and the European Union, as well as imposing a brief but crippling trade embargo in the mid-1990s........
Fighting over skeleton words.
I remember there was a member here who would lose his s*** over this topic. He also though that bisexuality was OK, so long as you got married to a woman and had kids, so he had his own banana world logic.
I remember there was a member here who would lose his s*** over this topic. He also though that bisexuality was OK, so long as you got married to a woman and had kids, so he had his own banana world logic.
I didn't even know Macedonia is a country, I thought it was a part of Greece.
Originally Posted by :
Macedonia has sent troops to support the U.S.-led wars in Iran and Afghanistan
Qualitative journalism from NBC. Is it too much to ask from supposedly professionals to double-check their article before they publish it?Macedonia has sent troops to support the U.S.-led wars in Iran and Afghanistan
Anyway, on topic, I hope that a deal will be achieved, but I'm not very optimist. In Greece and I imagine it's the same in Macedonia, the vast majority is against the inclusion of Macedonia in the country's official name. That makes a compromise politically suicidal.
Also, contrary to what the article says, SYRIZA is now a center, center-left party with many nationalist voters. They also govern the country in an alliance with a far-right group called Independent Greeks, whose program has endorsed the chem-trail conspiracy theory, so they are not invulnerable in nationalist matters.
http://www.eliamep.gr/wp-content/upl...-Sept-2016.pdf
Can you explain it for me please? I don't really trust anything from google wtf is going on?
Originally Posted by spmetla:
Some good news for a change. Would be nice for Macedonia...
Do you want Sarmatian to have a heart attack? He would be hemmed in by NATO altogether!Some good news for a change. Would be nice for Macedonia...
Originally Posted by Crandar:
In Greece and I imagine it's the same in Macedonia, the vast majority is against the inclusion of Macedonia in the country's official name. That makes a compromise politically suicidal.
The bold needs substantiation. AFAIK, Macedonia had offered several options all of which included "Macedonia":http://greece.greekreporter.com/2017...hens-to-agree/In Greece and I imagine it's the same in Macedonia, the vast majority is against the inclusion of Macedonia in the country's official name. That makes a compromise politically suicidal.
Originally Posted by Fragony:
Can you explain it for me please? I don't really trust anything from google wtf is going on?
They said Iran instead of Iraq. Elementary mistake.Can you explain it for me please? I don't really trust anything from google wtf is going on?
[QUOTE=Gilrandir;2053771600The bold needs substantiation. AFAIK, Macedonia had offered several options all of which included "Macedonia":[/QUOTE]
I meant that the public opinion of Greeks and Macedonians are irreconcilable. Of course the majority of Macedonians want term Macedonia included and about half of them (or the majority, if we exclude Albanians) are against a compromise.
https://euobserver.com/news/30146
Originally Posted by Crandar:
They said Iran instead of Iraq. Elementary mistake.
I meant that the public opinion of Greeks and Macedonians are irreconcilable. Of course the majority of Macedonians want term Macedonia included and about half of them (or the majority, if we exclude Albanians) are against a compromise.
https://euobserver.com/news/30146
They should just join Bulgaria and be done with it, just like Serbia and Bulgaria agreed to before the first Balkan WarThey said Iran instead of Iraq. Elementary mistake.
I meant that the public opinion of Greeks and Macedonians are irreconcilable. Of course the majority of Macedonians want term Macedonia included and about half of them (or the majority, if we exclude Albanians) are against a compromise.
https://euobserver.com/news/30146
That was at a time when the people in the area still considered themselves bulgarians living under the oppressive reign of the Ottomans. Only during the Jugoslavian indoctrination which did not allow that bulgarians lived inside the borders of Jugoslavia to prevent even the slightest reason for bulgarian interference, did that change.
It's not that simple. It's true that Macedonians were culturally between Serbs and Bulgarians, but Bulgarian nationalism lost the game definitely after the brutal occupation of WWII. Despite allegedly liberating their brothers from Yugoslavian oppression, the Bulgarians treated them as second-class citizens. That gradually led to various nationalist groups, VMRO included, changing their ideology from Bulgarian irredentism to Macedonian nationalism.
Originally Posted by Crandar:
Qualitative journalism from NBC. Is it too much to ask from supposedly professionals to double-check their article before they publish it?
You are speaking of U.S. journalists, so yes.Qualitative journalism from NBC. Is it too much to ask from supposedly professionals to double-check their article before they publish it?
EDIT: N/A
Macedonia is Serbia anyway, so the entire thing is moot.
It's gonna be one of the first countries to be taken during inevitable Serbian world conquest!
It's gonna be one of the first countries to be taken during inevitable Serbian world conquest!
Originally Posted by Sarmatian:
Macedonia is Serbia anyway, so the entire thing is moot.
It's gonna be one of the first countries to be taken during inevitable Serbian world conquest!
I know you're kidding, but whenever I hear nationalists bleating about how awesome their plot of land within imaginary lines is compared to some other plot of land behind some imaginary lines, I want to force them to live under the same conditions that they considered "the golden age" for a year.Macedonia is Serbia anyway, so the entire thing is moot.
It's gonna be one of the first countries to be taken during inevitable Serbian world conquest!
Originally Posted by Sarmatian:
Macedonia is Serbia anyway, so the entire thing is moot.
It's gonna be one of the first countries to be taken during inevitable Serbian world conquest!
YOUTUBE is full of numerous professional geopolitical predictions about the Balkans. All experts universally agree that the Holy Trinity of Orthodoxy is destined to prevail, at the expense of Muslims, Catholics and other pagans:Macedonia is Serbia anyway, so the entire thing is moot.
It's gonna be one of the first countries to be taken during inevitable Serbian world conquest!
Youtube Video
Of course, you chose to ruin everything by electing that lesbian puppet of Communist Soros. I'm frankly speechless.
Ah, the good ole map painting. Used to be favourite pass time in these parts.
Although any prediction where Serbia doesn't end up controlling Washington, Moscow and Beijing is pointless.
Although any prediction where Serbia doesn't end up controlling Washington, Moscow and Beijing is pointless.
Originally Posted by Crandar:
YOUTUBE is full of numerous professional geopolitical predictions about the Balkans. All experts universally agree that the Holy Trinity of Orthodoxy is destined to prevail, at the expense of Muslims, Catholics and other pagans:
Of course, you chose to ruin everything by electing that lesbian puppet of Communist Soros. I'm frankly speechless.
The orthodox rap music gives it away as semi-professional, but true experts only come in the form of sock puppets, so I'll wait for Binkov to cover the Balkan scenario...YOUTUBE is full of numerous professional geopolitical predictions about the Balkans. All experts universally agree that the Holy Trinity of Orthodoxy is destined to prevail, at the expense of Muslims, Catholics and other pagans:
Of course, you chose to ruin everything by electing that lesbian puppet of Communist Soros. I'm frankly speechless.
Speaking of Serbia...
Kosovo Serb leader Oliver Ivanovic assassinated in broad daylight
Speaking of Serbia ruling the world, should we retain "Balkan powder keg" in our vocabulary?
Kosovo Serb leader Oliver Ivanovic assassinated in broad daylight
Speaking of Serbia ruling the world, should we retain "Balkan powder keg" in our vocabulary?
Originally Posted by Montmorency:
Speaking of Serbia...
Kosovo Serb leader Oliver Ivanovic assassinated in broad daylight
Speaking of Serbia ruling the world, should we retain "Balkan powder keg" in our vocabulary?
I always thought "Einige verdammt dumme Sache auf dem Balkan" was the best quotation on the regions propensity for causing trouble.Speaking of Serbia...
Kosovo Serb leader Oliver Ivanovic assassinated in broad daylight
Speaking of Serbia ruling the world, should we retain "Balkan powder keg" in our vocabulary?
Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh:
I always thought "Einige verdammt dumme Sache auf dem Balkan" was the best quotation on the regions propensity for causing trouble.
I also like that quote, it's just that I don't see the "region's propensity for causing trouble" as the issue, but rather everyone else's involvement in the region. I always thought "Einige verdammt dumme Sache auf dem Balkan" was the best quotation on the regions propensity for causing trouble.
You have conflicts, wars and assassinations in all parts of the world all the time, that is not unique to Balkans. What is unique is that there is quite a few powerful countries and their overlapping interests. They are constantly try to increase their own influence at the expense of one another.
Case in point, the name dispute. It is pretty clear that US are pressuring Greece and Macedonia now to resolve the dispute so that Macedonia can enter NATO under current government. And I won't be surprised if the name Greece accepts now is the name they rejected in the past.
Concerning the murder, still hard to say what happened. It was most probably committed by Albanians, but not yet unclear whether it was ordered by the clique in charge. A fairly high degree of possibility, though.
Croatia>Serbia>Greece>Macedonia>Kososvo>Bosnia>Hertzogovina>Albania.
Originally Posted by Sarmatian:
I also like that quote, it's just that I don't see the "region's propensity for causing trouble" as the issue, but rather everyone else's involvement in the region....
A fair point that. The propensity for trouble is NOT entirely home-grown.I also like that quote, it's just that I don't see the "region's propensity for causing trouble" as the issue, but rather everyone else's involvement in the region....
Originally Posted by Sarmatian:
You have conflicts, wars and assassinations in all parts of the world all the time, that is not unique to Balkans. What is unique is that there is quite a few powerful countries and their overlapping interests. They are constantly try to increase their own influence at the expense of one another.
Case in point, the name dispute. It is pretty clear that US are pressuring Greece and Macedonia now to resolve the dispute so that Macedonia can enter NATO under current government. And I won't be surprised if the name Greece accepts now is the name they rejected in the past.
Greece will probably accept the name they've rejected, Macedonia will probably not try to change their flag back to the original one they wanted and then it'll likely join NATO. You have conflicts, wars and assassinations in all parts of the world all the time, that is not unique to Balkans. What is unique is that there is quite a few powerful countries and their overlapping interests. They are constantly try to increase their own influence at the expense of one another.
Case in point, the name dispute. It is pretty clear that US are pressuring Greece and Macedonia now to resolve the dispute so that Macedonia can enter NATO under current government. And I won't be surprised if the name Greece accepts now is the name they rejected in the past.
Makes me wonder though if all the Balkans are part of NATO if that'll lead to the occasional war and war through proxies that have been allowed between NATO allies such as Greece and Turkey both over the Aegean islands and in Cyprus.
As a Serbian, is NATO still hated there? I know that it participated with NATO exercises but understandably keeps it's close ties with Russia. Would Serbia joining NATO be something you could imagine happening?
I imagine with the war in relatively recent memory that it still guides policy there. Has the stream of migrants through Serbia caused any problems?
I know on some more extreme forums I've seen Serbian posters essentially see the migrants as a fitting punishment for the 'West' after allowing the albanian/kosovars to separate from Serbia.
How about EU accession? I know that Serbia is a candidate for membership and that negotiations have been ongoing for years, is this a popular initative given the Brexit, Greek financial crisis, migrant crisis, and chill caused by the proxy war in Ukraine?
Originally Posted by :
A fair point that. The propensity for trouble is NOT entirely home-grown.
Every one of the Balkan wars had Great Power meddling behind them. All the wars up to and including WW1 being over what was acceptable for the balance of power their via the Austro-Hungarian and Russian proxies. A fair point that. The propensity for trouble is NOT entirely home-grown.
Cold War had a technically neutral Yugoslavia, a PRC Chinese backed Albania, NATO supported Greece and Turkey, pro-soviet Warsaw pact Bulgaria and Romania and questioningly loyal to the Warsaw pact Hungary.
The first Balkan wars aren't that easily tracked to foreign meddling, WW1 is though. Everybody is still unsure about it though, no easy answers
It was partly as a reaction to the aspiring Italian Great Power's war with the Ottomans over modern day Libya. Also it was a Serbian reaction to Austria's annexation of Bosnia which together with his overthrow of the pro-Hapsburg King a decade earlier drove him into the Russian camp and expansion to the south.
Could also say it was caused by all the unhappy Balkan (especially Bulgaria) nations following the Russo-Turkish War which was not given the full territory it wanted due to British and Austro-Hungarian opposition to any new large power in the Balkans that could oppose it's policies in Transylvania and future Yugoslavia.
The Congress of Berlin left everyone in the region unhappy and allowed the tensions and latent nationalism to simmer then boil over resulting in the Balkan Wars and WW1.
Could also say it was caused by all the unhappy Balkan (especially Bulgaria) nations following the Russo-Turkish War which was not given the full territory it wanted due to British and Austro-Hungarian opposition to any new large power in the Balkans that could oppose it's policies in Transylvania and future Yugoslavia.
The Congress of Berlin left everyone in the region unhappy and allowed the tensions and latent nationalism to simmer then boil over resulting in the Balkan Wars and WW1.
Originally Posted by spmetla:
As a Serbian, is NATO still hated there? I know that it participated with NATO exercises but understandably keeps it's close ties with Russia. Would Serbia joining NATO be something you could imagine happening?
Hatred is maybe too strong a word for most. Resentment, dislike, distrust would probably be better descriptions. Most people, at least in the north do accept that we have to cooperate with NATO in certain areas. I mean, at this point, we have a lot in common with the Gaul village from Asterix - a small country surrounded by NATO bases. We just lack the magic potion. As a Serbian, is NATO still hated there? I know that it participated with NATO exercises but understandably keeps it's close ties with Russia. Would Serbia joining NATO be something you could imagine happening?
I don't see Serbia joining NATO, bar some huge geopolitical changes, for at least next 20 years. It the referendum was tomorrow, I could easily a resounding NO victory easily, probably around 75%, maybe more.
Originally Posted by :
I imagine with the war in relatively recent memory that it still guides policy there. Has the stream of migrants through Serbia caused any problems?
Well, my opinion is that stream of migrants didn't cause real problems anywhere, at least any more than could be expected from a tired, hungry and scared group of people. I imagine with the war in relatively recent memory that it still guides policy there. Has the stream of migrants through Serbia caused any problems?
Originally Posted by :
I know on some more extreme forums I've seen Serbian posters essentially see the migrants as a fitting punishment for the 'West' after allowing the albanian/kosovars to separate from Serbia.
Yeah, a lot of Serbs are idiots. In this case, because one had nothing to do with the other. I know on some more extreme forums I've seen Serbian posters essentially see the migrants as a fitting punishment for the 'West' after allowing the albanian/kosovars to separate from Serbia.
All wars in the nineties were nationalistic. Had absolutely nothing to do with religion. Religion was just a way to point out "look, they're different than us because they pray to a different God". How would you separate Bosnians otherwise? They talk the same, the look the same, and until the war, they all shared similar level of disdain for organized religion. A lot of those idiots defending their "true faith" on all sides were bestest communists a few years before.
Originally Posted by :
How about EU accession? I know that Serbia is a candidate for membership and that negotiations have been ongoing for years, is this a popular initative given the Brexit, Greek financial crisis, migrant crisis, and chill caused by the proxy war in Ukraine?
Well, this is a tough one. The polls show less than 50% in favor of joining consistently for the last several years (was over 70% in the early 00's). Yet all major political parties push for it and are usually mentioning it as the most important foreign policy goal. So, with basically no organized opposition, a coordinated campaign from all major political parties would easily raise it over 50% in the span of a few months.How about EU accession? I know that Serbia is a candidate for membership and that negotiations have been ongoing for years, is this a popular initative given the Brexit, Greek financial crisis, migrant crisis, and chill caused by the proxy war in Ukraine?
I wonder what the ancient athenians and spartans would think to hear that 2500 years later the nation claiming thier heritage is getting worked up over who has rights to the name macedon.
Originally Posted by Greyblades:
I wonder what the ancient athenians and spartans would think to hear that 2500 years later the nation claiming thier heritage is getting worked up over who has rights to the name macedon.
Weren't they a Persian satrapy by that point? Or am I off a few years?I wonder what the ancient athenians and spartans would think to hear that 2500 years later the nation claiming thier heritage is getting worked up over who has rights to the name macedon.
Ancient cultures could relate to the preoccupation with name and title, and the prestige and legitimacy these confer.
True but I was actually referring to the general disdane the southern citie states held the macedonians in the runup to alexander.
Originally Posted by spmetla:
It was partly as a reaction to the aspiring Italian Great Power's war with the Ottomans over modern day Libya. Also it was a Serbian reaction to Austria's annexation of Bosnia which together with his overthrow of the pro-Hapsburg King a decade earlier drove him into the Russian camp and expansion to the south.
Could also say it was caused by all the unhappy Balkan (especially Bulgaria) nations following the Russo-Turkish War which was not given the full territory it wanted due to British and Austro-Hungarian opposition to any new large power in the Balkans that could oppose it's policies in Transylvania and future Yugoslavia.
The Congress of Berlin left everyone in the region unhappy and allowed the tensions and latent nationalism to simmer then boil over resulting in the Balkan Wars and WW1.
There are so many theories and there is something wrong with all of them. There was so much going on all over the place. The greater sebia with Russian backing seems the plausable to but I can't know. I wouldn't burn my hands on the Balkan wars and WW1 and be factual about itIt was partly as a reaction to the aspiring Italian Great Power's war with the Ottomans over modern day Libya. Also it was a Serbian reaction to Austria's annexation of Bosnia which together with his overthrow of the pro-Hapsburg King a decade earlier drove him into the Russian camp and expansion to the south.
Could also say it was caused by all the unhappy Balkan (especially Bulgaria) nations following the Russo-Turkish War which was not given the full territory it wanted due to British and Austro-Hungarian opposition to any new large power in the Balkans that could oppose it's policies in Transylvania and future Yugoslavia.
The Congress of Berlin left everyone in the region unhappy and allowed the tensions and latent nationalism to simmer then boil over resulting in the Balkan Wars and WW1.
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