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So what happened is all the Greeks (and Ancient Macedonias) in existence returned to the modern borders of Greece and in that fleeting moment, wild untamed peoples from a lands unknown came and settled the region of Macedonia and dared to claim it as it own. So the region is devoid of a people who naturally grew under the Greek, Roman, Ottoman, Yugoslavian and now independent rule are nothing to do with the area until 30 years ago?
I am smelling something here...
I am smelling something here...
In some ways, it is at least silly to claim something as your own just because you ended up inhabiting the same region a millennium later.
And it is going to be a long term problem for modern day Macedonians if they try to be build their national identity around that. That being said, that is their problem, not Greece's so I don't quite agree with Greece refusing any inclusion of the word Macedonia.
And it is going to be a long term problem for modern day Macedonians if they try to be build their national identity around that. That being said, that is their problem, not Greece's so I don't quite agree with Greece refusing any inclusion of the word Macedonia.
Ah right, obligatory.
Vimeo Video
Cross-post with Troy thread: African-Americans portraying Macedonians. No Caucasian is safe!
@Sarmatian
@Crandar
@Suraknar
Vimeo Video
Cross-post with Troy thread: African-Americans portraying Macedonians. No Caucasian is safe!
@Sarmatian
@Crandar
@Suraknar
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Originally Posted by Sarmatian:
In some ways, it is at least silly to claim something as your own just because you ended up inhabiting the same region a millennium later.
And it is going to be a long term problem for modern day Macedonians if they try to be build their national identity around that. That being said, that is their problem, not Greece's so I don't quite agree with Greece refusing any inclusion of the word Macedonia.
Don't we see that somewhere else as well.In some ways, it is at least silly to claim something as your own just because you ended up inhabiting the same region a millennium later.
And it is going to be a long term problem for modern day Macedonians if they try to be build their national identity around that. That being said, that is their problem, not Greece's so I don't quite agree with Greece refusing any inclusion of the word Macedonia.
@first part
Originally Posted by Montmorency:
Technical help: I can see the embedded video in IE, but not in Chrome. Chrome seems to have changed a lot under the hood in the past year, and I feel like it has trouble with the forum formatting at times.
My Edge says I need to enable Flash. I'm relatively sure many browsers including Chrome have disabled Flash per default because it is insecure old garbage. I'm not sure why Vimeo still uses it and not very eager to enable it.Technical help: I can see the embedded video in IE, but not in Chrome. Chrome seems to have changed a lot under the hood in the past year, and I feel like it has trouble with the forum formatting at times.
On topic: The Greeks need to grow up and stop whining, they will be reunited with Macedonia via the EU anyway.
Originally Posted by Suraknar:
That is because Egyptians did not steal it. Alexander The great founded Alexandria. Egypt had an Hellenization period, the name passed down history and it became part of its history. I am proud that Egyptians and Greek have shared history in the grand Human Journey.
That is because Egyptians did not steal it. Alexander The great founded Alexandria. Egypt had an Hellenization period, the name passed down history and it became part of its history. I am proud that Egyptians and Greek have shared history in the grand Human Journey.
Then explain please what you mean by "stealing names". When ancestors of modern FYROM citizens came to the land and populated it and took its name - it is a theft. When ancestors of modern Egyptians (aka Arabs) came to the city and populated it and took its name it is not a theft, it is a matter of pride for the former owners. Originally Posted by Suraknar:
Not the same thing either. These are Cities and States or Provinces , Regional names, not Countries.
New Zealand is a country. Luxemburg is a country bearing the same name as a Belgian province. New Guinea is a country. Not the same thing either. These are Cities and States or Provinces , Regional names, not Countries.
But my post was also of personal names. Why do you consider naming anything after Columbus and erecting his statues in the USA a norm, but naming things after ancient Macedoneans outside Greece a theft? Or if they built Alexander's statue in Alexandria it won't be a theft?
Originally Posted by Suraknar:
French people do not Claim German History nevetheless. Americans living in Athens or Ithaka do not Claim Greek Identity and History. They are Americans.
But they claim the names which is a felony in itself, according to you.French people do not Claim German History nevetheless. Americans living in Athens or Ithaka do not Claim Greek Identity and History. They are Americans.
Originally Posted by Suraknar:
Yes there are many such cases, but it is false to think that only Greek people are bothered. It bothers whomever is involved. Having said this, again the "They did it why not us" logic here. If others do not feel important to defend their history that is their problem. Greeks do.
Bothered? Now I know what is it when hundreds of thousands take to the streets - they show they are bothered. When Putin called Kyivites Volodymyr the Great and Yaroslav the Wise and Yaroslav's daughter Anna (the queen of France) (who all lived when there was no Russia and no Moscow or St. Petersburg) "Russian princes/princess" he got a portion of fun from Ukrainians including the officials - this is what being bothered means. But if it becomes a frenzy like the one we witnessed it is one more step to adopting legal documents - like the law on National Remembrance Institute Poland has adopted recently. If you aren't in the know - find out more about it and see where Greece is heading.Yes there are many such cases, but it is false to think that only Greek people are bothered. It bothers whomever is involved. Having said this, again the "They did it why not us" logic here. If others do not feel important to defend their history that is their problem. Greeks do.
Originally Posted by Suraknar:
Really, do French speak Medieval French? Do English Speak Shakesperean or Victorian English? Languages evolve and change every 100 years. In 100 years from now no one will be speaking the same as 100 years ago. Your argument is fallacious and superficial.
And actually I can read still Ancient Greek and have moderate understanding of it as a Modern Greek Speaker. I can understand Byzantine (medieval Greek) even more. The closer to today the More I can understand naturally. Without having to study it.
You were the one who brought up the linguistic evidence to prove that there is no way modern Macedoneans are Macedoneans. Peoples can move around bringing their language with them, but the country which they settle anew may retain its former name - like Britain, for instance. So your advice is modern Brits should forget their Celtic and Roman heritage? Yo, Brits, demolish Boudicca's monuments (if there are any) and forget about Hadrian's Wall. Don't steal Welsh (Irish?) and Italian history.Really, do French speak Medieval French? Do English Speak Shakesperean or Victorian English? Languages evolve and change every 100 years. In 100 years from now no one will be speaking the same as 100 years ago. Your argument is fallacious and superficial.
And actually I can read still Ancient Greek and have moderate understanding of it as a Modern Greek Speaker. I can understand Byzantine (medieval Greek) even more. The closer to today the More I can understand naturally. Without having to study it.
Originally Posted by Suraknar:
Of course Greeks or today retain a very strong link to the Ancient Greeks, Biological and cultural, they are our ancestors.. It is only people outside Greece that often try to make a distinction. Inside Greece we laugh at them and their "conclusions".
You may laugh as much as you like. There was a time when people laughed their butts off when they were told that Sun moves round the Earth. As for the link: both aspects are moot. Biologically, the centuries under Turkish rule couldn't have passed without any impact left. Culturally, the religion (since in Middle Ages and much later it was the principle thing that determined culture) of Ancient Greece doesn't expose the said link.Of course Greeks or today retain a very strong link to the Ancient Greeks, Biological and cultural, they are our ancestors.. It is only people outside Greece that often try to make a distinction. Inside Greece we laugh at them and their "conclusions".
Originally Posted by Suraknar:
If you think like this everyone has a right to call themselves what they wish. It doe snot make it right nevertheless. And this is the issue. The claim is disputed.
You should make up your own mind on the matter. Is it "not right" or is it "disputed"? The former choice leaves no room for any compromise while the latter paves way to negotiations.If you think like this everyone has a right to call themselves what they wish. It doe snot make it right nevertheless. And this is the issue. The claim is disputed.
Originally Posted by Suraknar:
But it seems like the people of FYROM are comming to their senses:
http://www.pappaspost.com/reports-sk...lacate-greece/
http://www.pappaspost.com/fyrom-prim...port-highways/
http://www.pappaspost.com/fyrom-prim...countrys-name/
I would rather say that they are taking steps to a compromise.But it seems like the people of FYROM are comming to their senses:
http://www.pappaspost.com/reports-sk...lacate-greece/
http://www.pappaspost.com/fyrom-prim...port-highways/
http://www.pappaspost.com/fyrom-prim...countrys-name/
Originally Posted by Suraknar:
No my friend. If I come to your house and steal your belonging is the problem with you or me? You can say it is with you because you did not protect your belongings. But I will say it is with me because stealing is not a Good thing to do as a sophisticated ethically responsible human being. In Greece, we call that Philotimo.
It all depends on what level of sophistication of Civilization you live. Apparently not very advanced one based on your arguments, but I will apply the benefit of the doubt in favor of a civil discussion and debate.
This is where the shoe pinches! You still consider this country "your house"? You should have started with it then we all would understand your argument much better. No my friend. If I come to your house and steal your belonging is the problem with you or me? You can say it is with you because you did not protect your belongings. But I will say it is with me because stealing is not a Good thing to do as a sophisticated ethically responsible human being. In Greece, we call that Philotimo.
It all depends on what level of sophistication of Civilization you live. Apparently not very advanced one based on your arguments, but I will apply the benefit of the doubt in favor of a civil discussion and debate.
As for stealing: if you lived in Elm Street and then moved out and another family came to live in your house they have all the right to call themselves Elm Street dwellers and find out more about its history and be proud of it - because THEY LIVE THERE NOW. It is as much their street and history as it was (and is) yours. All the USA follow this principle, I believe.
Anyway, your country is called Greece. They "try to usurp" the name of Macedonia, not Greece.
Originally Posted by Montmorency:
Ah right, obligatory.
Vimeo Video
Cross-post with Troy thread: African-Americans portraying Macedonians. No Caucasian is safe!
@Sarmatian
@Crandar
@Suraknar
Kebab is tasteless anyway. It's a cultural theft of the original gyros, pork meat sliced carefully and enriched with onion, mustard, tomato and potato (the last two, contrary to the popular perception, are Byzantine discoveries).Ah right, obligatory.
Vimeo Video
Cross-post with Troy thread: African-Americans portraying Macedonians. No Caucasian is safe!
@Sarmatian
@Crandar
@Suraknar
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Ironically enough, just when the conservatives began to gain brownie points thanks to the dispute, a new corruption scandal has emerged.
It implicates our commissioner in the EU and two former prime-ministers, including Anthony Samaras, who has connected his name with the issue, when he provoked the collapse of the '90-93 government, by refusing to cooperate with its conciliatory stance.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-42969557
Originally Posted by Beskar:
The Greeks who oppose any form of 'Macedonia' from the name are the petty ones. Suggestions such as 'New Macedonia'/'North Macedonia'/etc are perfectly valid especially since the country is within the region of Macedonia (though the region is a lot bigger) so denying them any form of name is being selfish. It would be like Ireland taking umbrage over the fact Northern Ireland has 'Ireland' in its name, suggesting it should be called 'Belfast' using the term 'Belfastians' when addressing the people living there, using excuses such as the protestant majorities living there instead of catholic majorities.
A better example would be Wales becoming independant under the name "Brittania" (which obviously does not belong to anglo-saxon-norman invaders of the british isles). I doubt that the United Kingdom would be amused.The Greeks who oppose any form of 'Macedonia' from the name are the petty ones. Suggestions such as 'New Macedonia'/'North Macedonia'/etc are perfectly valid especially since the country is within the region of Macedonia (though the region is a lot bigger) so denying them any form of name is being selfish. It would be like Ireland taking umbrage over the fact Northern Ireland has 'Ireland' in its name, suggesting it should be called 'Belfast' using the term 'Belfastians' when addressing the people living there, using excuses such as the protestant majorities living there instead of catholic majorities.
Or turn the Ireland example around - the unionists are certainly not amused that Ireland sees the entire island including "northern" ireland/Ulster as rightful part of their state and their declared goal is one day to unite it (and with Brexit that will come up for discussion again as that will mean an EU-UK border in Ireland).
Names can imply claims and any country should be wary about that. Especially Greece that was occupied or invaded by nearly all of it’s neighbours.
The only neighbor that has invaded and occupied part of Greece is Bulgaria.
Originally Posted by Crandar:
Kebab is tasteless anyway. It's a cultural theft of the original gyros, pork meat sliced carefully and enriched with onion, mustard, tomato and potato (the last two, contrary to the popular perception, are Byzantine discoveries).
Byzantine was no more for half a century before Columbus ever came to the New World with its tomatoes and potatoes.Kebab is tasteless anyway. It's a cultural theft of the original gyros, pork meat sliced carefully and enriched with onion, mustard, tomato and potato (the last two, contrary to the popular perception, are Byzantine discoveries).
Originally Posted by Gilrandir:
Byzantine was no more for half a century before Columbus ever came to the New World with its tomatoes and potatoes.
Second time you force me to use this image:Byzantine was no more for half a century before Columbus ever came to the New World with its tomatoes and potatoes.
It took a minute for me, at least.
Here's a direct link to the official video for people who don't want to deal with Vimeo: Macedonian Cafe
If Macedonians want to use that name for the same reasons Greeks don't want them to use it...
Here's a direct link to the official video for people who don't want to deal with Vimeo: Macedonian Cafe
If Macedonians want to use that name for the same reasons Greeks don't want them to use it...
They really ought to resolve it by having Serbia annex the country and province of Macedonia as well as Epirus while Turkey occupies the rest of Greece until they come to a sensible solution. Or Turkey and Serbia could just decide to annex the rest of the Balkans and form a neo-Byzantine Empire except with Serbs and Turks in charge instead of the Greeks that mucked it up last time.
But I don't want to annex Macedonia. Please no. Have you seen Macedonia?
Parts of Greece, ok. There are some nice beaches and islands.
I'd really like Serbia's annexation in the future to be limited to nice places like Seychelles, Maldives, Malta, Copacabana...
Parts of Greece, ok. There are some nice beaches and islands.
I'd really like Serbia's annexation in the future to be limited to nice places like Seychelles, Maldives, Malta, Copacabana...
Originally Posted by Noncommunist:
They really ought to resolve it by having Serbia annex the country and province of Macedonia as well as Epirus while Turkey occupies the rest of Greece until they come to a sensible solution. Or Turkey and Serbia could just decide to annex the rest of the Balkans and form a neo-Byzantine Empire except with Serbs and Turks in charge instead of the Greeks that mucked it up last time.
Good luck with this. I can see only a few potential problem issues with this.They really ought to resolve it by having Serbia annex the country and province of Macedonia as well as Epirus while Turkey occupies the rest of Greece until they come to a sensible solution. Or Turkey and Serbia could just decide to annex the rest of the Balkans and form a neo-Byzantine Empire except with Serbs and Turks in charge instead of the Greeks that mucked it up last time.
Of course, by a few, I mean requiring scientific notation to keep it short enough to read.
Originally Posted by Montmorency:
...If Macedonians want to use that name for the same reasons Greeks don't want them to use it...
That is often a factor in "identity" centered conflicts. As with same sex marriage here in the USA, no other label was acceptable. A civil union with the exact same rights and privileges or government referring to all marriages as civil unions would not have been and was not acceptable because the use of the SAME label had been conflated with the identity expressions of the aggrieved....If Macedonians want to use that name for the same reasons Greeks don't want them to use it...
Identity is, I have believed for some time, the most powerful of needs-level motivation.
Originally Posted by Montmorency:
It took a minute for me, at least.
Here's a direct link to the official video for people who don't want to deal with Vimeo: Macedonian Cafe
If Macedonians want to use that name for the same reasons Greeks don't want them to use it...
Ok, I laughed.It took a minute for me, at least.
Here's a direct link to the official video for people who don't want to deal with Vimeo: Macedonian Cafe
If Macedonians want to use that name for the same reasons Greeks don't want them to use it...
Originally Posted by Montmorency:
Here's a direct link to the official video for people who don't want to deal with Vimeo: Macedonian Cafe
"Sorry 'bout that. This video is not available from your location."Here's a direct link to the official video for people who don't want to deal with Vimeo: Macedonian Cafe
You're obviously trolling me now.
Originally Posted by Crandar:
The only neighbor that has invaded and occupied part of Greece is Bulgaria.
That depends on the definiton. Even if you try to narrow it down to say "only occupied parts of the modern greek state" it would not be correct.The only neighbor that has invaded and occupied part of Greece is Bulgaria.
There was Serbia in the time of Stefan Dusan
the Ottomans or rather the Turks for quite a long time (and as you wrote part bold implying that full occupation would not count I have to point out that they never occupied the whole of Greece as some parts were venetian),
Italy during roman times, before WW2 the Dodekanes that they took from the Ottomans with Lybia and during WW2.
Bulgaria during the Bulgarian 1st and 2nd empire and in WW2.
So that Greece is wary that someone might use an ancient name to claim part of their lands is understandable.
Sorry, but that's not a very convincing argument, every region has been invaded and occupied by a huge variety of people. Does this mean that France should be worried of Italy, Spain, Germany and Switzerland?
By that logic, Greece has also invaded all its neighbors, including Bulgaria, Turkey, Albania, Serbia, Italy and Cyprus. All fear the imperialist Greek hordes!
Nah, it doesn't work like that. In what concerns the modern states, parts of Greece has only been occupied (twice) by Bulgaria. We also occupied parts of them twice, so we're square now.
By that logic, Greece has also invaded all its neighbors, including Bulgaria, Turkey, Albania, Serbia, Italy and Cyprus. All fear the imperialist Greek hordes!
Nah, it doesn't work like that. In what concerns the modern states, parts of Greece has only been occupied (twice) by Bulgaria. We also occupied parts of them twice, so we're square now.
Serbia stronk!
Originally Posted by Crandar:
Sorry, but that's not a very convincing argument, every region has been invaded and occupied by a huge variety of people. Does this mean that France should be worried of Italy, Spain, Germany and Switzerland?
Absolutely - once any of those neighbours starts using names in that region as if they were his own and is no longer an obvious ally. So if Germany/Austria and Italy would at one point no longer be allies in NATO and EU and the former start talking about "Südtirol" regarding national politics again instead of Alto Adige that would be a point where I could see Italy starting to worry about the use of names. Sorry, but that's not a very convincing argument, every region has been invaded and occupied by a huge variety of people. Does this mean that France should be worried of Italy, Spain, Germany and Switzerland?
Originally Posted by :
By that logic, Greece has also invaded all its neighbors, including Bulgaria, Turkey, Albania, Serbia, Italy and Cyprus. All fear the imperialist Greek hordes!
Yes, but they no longer claim the use of those lands as their own. They don’t even call themselves the Roman Empire or Byzantine Empire anymore but Greece. "Macedonia" on the other hand claims a name of a historical region that they only partially control as their own name, despite being Bulgarians who have been brainwashed too long in Yugoslavia to be willing to acknowledge that and think they actually have something to do with ancient Macedonia. That is a s silly as some turkish scientists claiming that the turks descend from the Hithites and Anatolia always was their ancient home.By that logic, Greece has also invaded all its neighbors, including Bulgaria, Turkey, Albania, Serbia, Italy and Cyprus. All fear the imperialist Greek hordes!
Originally Posted by ConjurerDragon:
Absolutely - once any of those neighbours starts using names in that region as if they were his own and is no longer an obvious ally. So if Germany/Austria and Italy would at one point no longer be allies in NATO and EU and the former start talking about "Südtirol" regarding natioal politics again instead of Alto Adige that would be a point where I could see Italy starting to worry about the use of names.
Yes, but they no longer claim the use of those lands as their own. They don’t even call themselves the Roman Empire or Byzantine Empire anymore but Greece. "Macedonia" on the other hand claims a name of a historical region that they only partially control as their own name, despite being Bulgarians who have been brainwashed too long in Yugoslavia to be willing to acknowledge that and think they actually have something to do with ancient Macedonia. That is a s silly as some turkish scientists claiming that the turks descend from the Hithites and Anatolia always was their ancient home.
I think brainwashing is a general Bulgarian theme, not really region specificAbsolutely - once any of those neighbours starts using names in that region as if they were his own and is no longer an obvious ally. So if Germany/Austria and Italy would at one point no longer be allies in NATO and EU and the former start talking about "Südtirol" regarding natioal politics again instead of Alto Adige that would be a point where I could see Italy starting to worry about the use of names.
Yes, but they no longer claim the use of those lands as their own. They don’t even call themselves the Roman Empire or Byzantine Empire anymore but Greece. "Macedonia" on the other hand claims a name of a historical region that they only partially control as their own name, despite being Bulgarians who have been brainwashed too long in Yugoslavia to be willing to acknowledge that and think they actually have something to do with ancient Macedonia. That is a s silly as some turkish scientists claiming that the turks descend from the Hithites and Anatolia always was their ancient home.
Oh really, your region could get into trouble once again, I dispise the EU but with the Balkans it might prevent you guys from clawing out eachtother for a while.Complicated place.
Originally Posted by ConjurerDragon:
Absolutely - once any of those neighbours starts using names in that region as if they were his own and is no longer an obvious ally. So if Germany/Austria and Italy would at one point no longer be allies in NATO and EU and the former start talking about "Südtirol" regarding natioal politics again instead of Alto Adige that would be a point where I could see Italy starting to worry about the use of names.
Yes, but they no longer claim the use of those lands as their own. They don’t even call themselves the Roman Empire or Byzantine Empire anymore but Greece. "Macedonia" on the other hand claims a name of a historical region that they only partially control as their own name, despite being Bulgarians who have been brainwashed too long in Yugoslavia to be willing to acknowledge that and think they actually have something to do with ancient Macedonia. That is a s silly as some turkish scientists claiming that the turks descend from the Hithites and Anatolia always was their ancient home.
Everyone is free to identify however he wants. If the people of FYROM feel as Macedonians, then they are free to do so, especially considering that they have officially and constitutionally rejected irredentism. Absolutely - once any of those neighbours starts using names in that region as if they were his own and is no longer an obvious ally. So if Germany/Austria and Italy would at one point no longer be allies in NATO and EU and the former start talking about "Südtirol" regarding natioal politics again instead of Alto Adige that would be a point where I could see Italy starting to worry about the use of names.
Yes, but they no longer claim the use of those lands as their own. They don’t even call themselves the Roman Empire or Byzantine Empire anymore but Greece. "Macedonia" on the other hand claims a name of a historical region that they only partially control as their own name, despite being Bulgarians who have been brainwashed too long in Yugoslavia to be willing to acknowledge that and think they actually have something to do with ancient Macedonia. That is a s silly as some turkish scientists claiming that the turks descend from the Hithites and Anatolia always was their ancient home.
They are not brainwashed, opposition to Bulgarian identity existed even during the Ottoman times, check Sandanski for example. When Bulgarians oppressed them in WWII, it's reasonable to expect that any Bulgarian sympathies that might have existed disappeared.
Also, your original argument about Greece's allegedly justified insecurity was that all most of its neighbors invaded in the past, regardless of any name disputes, so I ask again:
Should France be worried about Spain, Italy, Germany, Switzerland and Belgium?
Originally Posted by Crandar:
Everyone is free to identify however he wants. If the people of FYROM feel as Macedonians, then they are free to do so, especially considering that they have officially and constitutionally rejected irredentism.
They are not brainwashed, opposition to Bulgarian identity existed even during the Ottoman times, check Sandanski for example. When Bulgarians oppressed them in WWII, it's reasonable to expect that any Bulgarian sympathies that might have existed disappeared.
Also, your original argument about Greece's allegedly justified insecurity was that all most of its neighbors invaded in the past, regardless of any name disputes, so I ask again:
Should France be worried about Spain, Italy, Germany, Switzerland and Belgium?
Switzerland can be scrapped. These other countries, yeah France should be worried about them, if these countries fall apart there will be less free money for them. They can, especially Itally, but Belgium as well.Everyone is free to identify however he wants. If the people of FYROM feel as Macedonians, then they are free to do so, especially considering that they have officially and constitutionally rejected irredentism.
They are not brainwashed, opposition to Bulgarian identity existed even during the Ottoman times, check Sandanski for example. When Bulgarians oppressed them in WWII, it's reasonable to expect that any Bulgarian sympathies that might have existed disappeared.
Also, your original argument about Greece's allegedly justified insecurity was that all most of its neighbors invaded in the past, regardless of any name disputes, so I ask again:
Should France be worried about Spain, Italy, Germany, Switzerland and Belgium?
Originally Posted by Fragony:
Switzerland can be scrapped. These other countries, yeah France should be worried about them, if these countries fall apart there will be less free money for them. They can, especially Itally, but Belgium as well.
You forget the militant and violent history of Switzerland. Switzerland can be scrapped. These other countries, yeah France should be worried about them, if these countries fall apart there will be less free money for them. They can, especially Itally, but Belgium as well.
They did not only once control the northernmost parts of nowadays northern Italy (the areas in light green and the white areas with green lining in the southeast of that map of the "Acht alte Orte"/the eight old towns as Switzerland at that time was known
but made for a short while the Duchy of Milan a swiss protectorate.
Originally Posted by Crandar:
Everyone is free to identify however he wants.
Everyone? So you think the practice of locking people up and medically treat those who identify as the Emperor of China or Napoleon is an overreaction of society? Everyone is free to identify however he wants.
Originally Posted by :
If the people of FYROM feel as Macedonians, then they are free to do so, especially considering that they have officially and constitutionally rejected irredentism.
Yes. Sure. Everone rejects irredentism. That is - until the time that suddenly a state has changed and become more authoritarian and needs to distract from interior problems and then just happens to have "claims" or "ancient divided homelands" under the oppressive occupation of clearly evil whatever-ists that are the enemy at the time.If the people of FYROM feel as Macedonians, then they are free to do so, especially considering that they have officially and constitutionally rejected irredentism.
Just look at China and how the communists there keep on claiming areas that once belonged to the manchurian Quing-Empire. Next those Chinese claim that the mongolian Yuan-Dynasty was not a foreign invader ruling China but a chinese Dynasty and all mongolian lands should be united under their benevolent rulership again. That is after they secured the Spratley Islands in the south chinese sea. Really hard to say that those islands are not chinese when they are in the so named "south China" sea...
Originally Posted by :
They are not brainwashed, opposition to Bulgarian identity existed even during the Ottoman times, check Sandanski for example.
The guy who started as a bulgarian freedomfighter against ottoman oppression who cooperated with the Young Turks and who was a member of an extremist minority of people who wanted a USSR like balkans in which Macedonia would be a politically autonomous entity without claiming that they were ethnically something else than Bulgarians?They are not brainwashed, opposition to Bulgarian identity existed even during the Ottoman times, check Sandanski for example.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yane_S...ki#Controversy
Originally Posted by :
When Bulgarians oppressed them in WWII, it's reasonable to expect that any Bulgarian sympathies that might have existed disappeared.
Also, your original argument about Greece's allegedly justified insecurity was that all most of its neighbors invaded in the past, regardless of any name disputes, so I ask again:
Should France be worried about Spain, Italy, Germany, Switzerland and Belgium?
Sure - IF those nowadays friends and allys at one point in the future should no longer be allies and at that time should start to demand the use "Atrecht" instead of Arras or claim that Belgium has to rule from Ryssel (Lille) to Brüssel (Brussels), yes then France should be worried that some lunatics up there are up to something strange. When Bulgarians oppressed them in WWII, it's reasonable to expect that any Bulgarian sympathies that might have existed disappeared.
Also, your original argument about Greece's allegedly justified insecurity was that all most of its neighbors invaded in the past, regardless of any name disputes, so I ask again:
Should France be worried about Spain, Italy, Germany, Switzerland and Belgium?
And if, in a hypothetical future where the EU and NATO do no longer unite both countries, some catalan/spanish politicians would start naming the Rousillon "Northern Catalonia", german politicians Haut-Alsace "Elsaß-Lothringen" and italian politicians murmur about Nizza/Nice then yes, I could see the french politely pointing out that those areas have french names and no longer a connection that should be used for irredentist dreams.
The difference is that Macedonia while it is a candidate for both, is not yet part of the EU and NATO. And I can understand that Greece would block their entry until their issue has been solved. After all we no longer have the Cold War and Turkey being too useful in that time to deny them entry into NATO.
Originally Posted by ConjurerDragon:
You forget the militant and violent history of Switzerland.
They did not only once control the northernmost parts of nowadays northern Italy (the areas in light green and the white areas with green lining in the southeast of that map of the "Acht alte Orte"/the eight old towns as Switzerland at that time was known
but made for a short while the Duchy of Milan a swiss protectorate.
Everything in Europe has a violent history , that's kinda who we are. I wouldn't underestimate the instability in Belgium, the only thing that keeps it intact is that the Flemish dislike the Dutch more, I don't like Belgium there's this passive agression when you are from the Netherlands, if stares could kill I would be dead they really dislike Dutch people. But they don't need us to dislike eachother they are very good at hating eachother. Italy is kinda different, north and south, north is rich, south is poorYou forget the militant and violent history of Switzerland.
They did not only once control the northernmost parts of nowadays northern Italy (the areas in light green and the white areas with green lining in the southeast of that map of the "Acht alte Orte"/the eight old towns as Switzerland at that time was known
but made for a short while the Duchy of Milan a swiss protectorate.
Originally Posted by ConjurerDragon:
Sure - IF those nowadays friends and allys at one point in the future should no longer be allies and at that time should start to demand the use "Atrecht" instead of Arras or claim that Belgium has to rule from Ryssel (Lille) to Brüssel (Brussels), yes then France should be worried that some lunatics up there are up to something strange.
And if, in a hypothetical future where the EU and NATO do no longer unite both countries, some catalan/spanish politicians would start naming the Rousillon "Northern Catalonia", german politicians Haut-Alsace "Elsaß-Lothringen" and italian politicians murmur about Nizza/Nice then yes, I could see the french politely pointing out that those areas have french names and no longer a connection that should be used for irredentist dreams.
The difference is that Macedonia while it is a candidate for both, is not yet part of the EU and NATO. And I can understand that Greece would block their entry until their issue has been solved. After all we no longer have the Cold War and Turkey being too useful in that time to deny them entry into NATO.
It is a natural thing for places and cities situated near the border to have names in different languages. Like in Südtirol. But it doesn't mean that Italy has to worry about Austria voicing its claim to it.Sure - IF those nowadays friends and allys at one point in the future should no longer be allies and at that time should start to demand the use "Atrecht" instead of Arras or claim that Belgium has to rule from Ryssel (Lille) to Brüssel (Brussels), yes then France should be worried that some lunatics up there are up to something strange.
And if, in a hypothetical future where the EU and NATO do no longer unite both countries, some catalan/spanish politicians would start naming the Rousillon "Northern Catalonia", german politicians Haut-Alsace "Elsaß-Lothringen" and italian politicians murmur about Nizza/Nice then yes, I could see the french politely pointing out that those areas have french names and no longer a connection that should be used for irredentist dreams.
The difference is that Macedonia while it is a candidate for both, is not yet part of the EU and NATO. And I can understand that Greece would block their entry until their issue has been solved. After all we no longer have the Cold War and Turkey being too useful in that time to deny them entry into NATO.
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