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Thread: CANZUK

  1. #61
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: CANZUK

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    Not all groupings are based on trade. The 5 eyes is based on intelligence for example, and only involves the UK and no other country in the EU. Because the two do not compete.

    Barring sanctions, there are few cases where one is forbidden to trade with third parties - not even China prevents trade with Taiwan.

    Given that the situation is not the Axis / Allies in WW2, countries can have relationships with both and doubtlessly different relationships with both.

    If any grouping were to be created it would be extremely unlikely to be a trade block - who said it would be? If there was a sharing of the UN Veto this has nothing to do with it, since again France and the UK have one and the rest of the EU does not since the two are not linked.

    And holding back can be semantics. Is a trade deal with Canada almost destroyed after 11 years due to a province of Belgium a good method? Will this be the same in the next trade negotiation? Will countries use the EU blue print, or will countries just not bother with the UK?

    Well, the US has said that any UK-US trade deal will begin with the acceptance of US food and agriculture standards. This was an argument given by Remain, which Leave denied would be the case. Now that negotiations are underway, the US has confirmed what Remain said would be the case, which was denied by Leave. Like I said, there is one reality, supported by Leave and the UK government. Then there is another reality, supported by Remain and the rest of the world. Which is more likely to be true?

  2. #62
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: CANZUK

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    Is a trade deal with Canada almost destroyed after 11 years due to a province of Belgium a good method?
    No, but after the German government agreed against a lot of resistance from its people, it was the best we could get. More countries doing what their people wanted or the creation of sufficient transparency to maybe make me and others back the deal as well are obviously preferable. But when we can't get that because businesses don't want their customers to know what they negotiate with elected governments, then I applaud any Belgian region for resisting the hell out of that deal. It's great to have fellow Europeans standing up for your rights.


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  3. #63
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: CANZUK

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    ANZ have said that relations with the rEU will be more important than relations with the UK, as the rEU is a vastly bigger trade partner.
    And of course the UK screwed over who were then their key trade partners in our rush to join Europe. Any other allies we tried to alienate at the same time since of course how could relying solely on Europe ever go bad?

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  4. #64
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: CANZUK

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    And of course the UK screwed over who were then their key trade partners in our rush to join Europe. Any other allies we tried to alienate at the same time since of course how could relying solely on Europe ever go bad?

    There were probably many other things the UK has done in the past. And like your cited example, it all happened before I was even born. You want me to be sorry for these too?

  5. #65
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: CANZUK

    Double post

    Last edited by rory_20_uk; 05-24-2018 at 15:34.
    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
    Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
    "If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
    If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute talk with the average voter. Winston Churchill

  6. #66
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: CANZUK

    Your birth was a historical singularity - events before that point have no meaning or value...

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
    Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
    "If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
    If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute talk with the average voter. Winston Churchill

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  7. #67
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: CANZUK

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    There were probably many other things the UK has done in the past. And like your cited example, it all happened before I was even born. You want me to be sorry for these too?
    Absolutely. I cannot be absolved for sharing the same skin tone as slave-holding fellow citizens of my republic and must forever bear the shame of having stolen the land of my birth from those Native Americans who were here first. Why should you get off scot free (and isn't that a cultural slur) for wrongs done to other parties by people your parents and grand-parents voted into office?
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  8. #68
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: CANZUK

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    Your birth was a historical singularity - events before that point have no meaning or value...

    You're arguing that events before that time hold more value than things people say now. NB. ANZ aren't arguing that they can't trust the UK because they'd been betrayed befiore. They're saying that the EU 27 is more important than the UK because the former is a far bigger trade partner than the latter. You're the one bringing historical singularities into this, as opposed to what ANZ are actually saying now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    Absolutely. I cannot be absolved for sharing the same skin tone as slave-holding fellow citizens of my republic and must forever bear the shame of having stolen the land of my birth from those Native Americans who were here first. Why should you get off scot free (and isn't that a cultural slur) for wrongs done to other parties by people your parents and grand-parents voted into office?
    Rory's argument is more akin to saying that the UK should lead NATO because the US is an offshoot of the UK. The argument I/ANZ was putting forward is akin to the US should lead NATO because the US is by far the biggest and most important partner in it. One of them talks about the now. The other talks about history and thus justifying invalidating the now.

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