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Thread: 17 More Dead Kids

  1. #1
    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default 17 More Dead Kids

    https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...school-n848101

    You know how I know the world is unfair? Charlton Heston lived to be 84 and these kids were murdered before they could drink. Make no mistake, this is acceptable to the NRA and its backers. There solution, if they ever move beyond "thoughts and prayers" is simply to arm more security around the school. In an ill fated coincidence, the school had an armed guard but the two paths never crossed.

    We Federal gun control. Hell I would take enforcement of gun control already on the books.
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    Member Member Crandar's Avatar
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    Default Re: 17 More Dead Kids

    Always relevant, unfortunately.
    https://www.theonion.com/no-way-to-p...s-r-1823016659

    The fetishist approach of part of the American society to an obsolete document is embarrassing. It is related imo to the deification of the... Founding Fathers (what an absurd title for our modern standards).

    It may have been stellar back in the day (which I doubt, check the advantages given to rural elites), but times change, as do societies. A modification here and there is not going to cause an Armageddon, I speak from experience.

  3. #3

    Default Re: 17 More Dead Kids

    So, the shooter is a wannabe brownshirt.

    White Supremacists Claim Nikolas Cruz Trained With Them; Students Say He Wore Trump Hat in School

    Nikolas Cruz, the man accused of killing 17 people in a Florida high school, was a member of a “white separatist paramilitary proto-fascist organization,” the group told The Daily Beast.

    Cruz, 19, is accused of opening fire inside Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Florida. Prior to the shooting, he trained with the Republic of Florida, the group’s captain Jordan Jereb said (as first reported by the Anti-Defamation League). The RoF seeks to create a “white ethnostate” in Florida, according to its website, a view that Cruz supposedly shared.

    “I know he knew full well he was joining a white separatist paramilitary proto-fascist organization,” Jereb said.

    Last year, an alleged school shooter in New Mexico also expressed alt-right ideology online, as The Daily Beast previously reported.

    Cruz “seemed like just a normal, disenfranchised, young white man,” Jereb said.

    While no motive has been described by police, Jereb speculated that Cruz may have allegedly committed the massacre out of hatred for Jews or women.

    “There’s a very real sense of feminism being a cancer. That could’ve played into what he did, but we have female members of RoF,” Jereb said, adding that “we’re not a big fan of Jews. I think there were a lot of Jews at the school that might have been messing with him.”

    Jereb said Cruz belonged to a RoF “cell” from Clearwater and drove up with members to Tallahassee to do paramilitary training. RoF was recently operating in Tallahassee and attempting to court new members, according to a local news report from last year. The group posts videos of training montages on the internet with members in fatigues brandishing weapons.

    “I’m not trying to glorify it, but he was pretty efficient in what he did,” Jereb said. “He probably used that training to do what he did yesterday. Nobody I know told him to do that, he just freaked out.”

    Cruz received at least one of his guns through the white supremacist group, according to Jereb.

    “I think somebody bought him a Mosin–Nagant, but that’s bolt action. He had a semi-automatic in the school,” Jereb said.

    Cruz bought the AR-15 rifle authorities say he used at the school in February 2017, the ATF said in an affidavit filed Thursday.
    Listen, some argue there is moral justification in "punching Nazis" because they represent a "clear and present danger" to life and limb; punching them is an act of self-defense. I don't buy this line of thinking because it extends the logic of pre-emptive attack too far. One is not, for example, justified in tracking down and shooting someone because you saw them hanging around your house, maybe scoping it out for a home invasion. Neither declaration of intent nor logically-surmised intent go far enough to trigger a right to self-defense, at least as far as interpersonal violence goes.

    These militias are a clear and present danger.





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  4. #4

    Default Re: 17 More Dead Kids

    "Thoughts and prayers"; what policy is reduced to when you ignore the data.
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  5. #5
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: 17 More Dead Kids

    There is a huge confluence of factors, culturally and politically, at play here. My quick comments here will not be exhaustive, but please consider the following:

    A shiny new "gun control" law will accomplish little to nothing, no matter how heartfelt the sentiments behind it. There are approximately 270 million firearms in the United states, and between 6 and 8 million AR-15 or AR-15 style firearms (the type associated with this latest tragedy) depending who is doing the estimate. There are more unregistered firearms than their are illegal border crossers (a number we are told simply cannot be deported as it is beyond capability). With 300 million citizens and a total population of more than 327 million, we have about 4 firearms for every 5 people in the USA.

    If we abolish our quaint Constitution (which guarantees personal ownership of weapons so as to allow for a militia and for the individual citizen to oppose tyranny based on the unprovable belief that an individual is entitled to rights and that government must be limited and should not curtail them unless mutually agreeable to all) and go to a government fiat system as is the norm for humanity, even going so far as to abolish the ownership of firearms (or requiring all legally owned firearms to be stored at a public armory and redeemed when, and under what conditions authority sees fit to establish), there will still be millions of guns "loose" in our society.

    So unless you are of the belief that we can change the second amendment and then confiscate/criminalize etc. all of those who try to keep their weapons, we are pretty much stuck with the conditions that now obtain regarding firearms, firearm ownership, and the accessibility of weapons.

    After all, Switzerland is nearly as awash (per capita) with firearms as we....and you do not see the same rate of firearm murders. The mere presence of firearms in a society does not, of itself, beget more gun violence. There is still the choice to use that firearm with violent intent that is central to the issue.

    The issue is our culture, not our gun laws. Prior to 1900, a very high percentage of households in the USA had firearms. That percentage has gone down significantly during the 20th century. Yet the violence has increased. In WW2, fewer than 20% of our infantry forces would actually shoot at the enemy with intent to do harm. Most only fired their weapons to make noise or suppress enemy fire. Our current military stats suggest that 80% or more of our current infantry will engage with intent to do harm. Something has happened between 1950 and the present to make our culture much less unwilling to shoot and kill someone. THAT is the concern.
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  6. #6
    Member Member Alexander the Pretty Good's Avatar
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    Default Re: 17 More Dead Kids

    Your overall post is correct Seamus, but I have two nitpicks. 1, violence is probably down from before 1900, although I would say the nature of that violence and how we relate to it has also changed dramatically. 2, the numbers you are citing from WW2 are ultimately from SLA Marshall, who basically just made up numbers for his book. I'm not sure there's actually a good reason to believe his ratio of fire ideas. Interestingly the US military believed it and changed training methods to counteract this believed deficiency in American infantry.

    In the 50s and 60s you could buy an M1 carbine, a semi-auto milsurp rifle with a 30 round mag for like $100. Where were all the school shootings then? I think the seeds of our current societal sicknesses had already been planted by then, but we still (on the whole) much healthier at the time.

  7. #7

    Default Re: 17 More Dead Kids

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    After all, Switzerland is nearly as awash (per capita) with firearms as we....and you do not see the same rate of firearm murders. The mere presence of firearms in a society does not, of itself, beget more gun violence. There is still the choice to use that firearm with violent intent that is central to the issue.
    Switzerland has onerous militia-oriented gun regulations.

    The mere presence of firearms in a society does not, of itself, beget more gun violence. There is still the choice to use that firearm with violent intent that is central to the issue.
    As 'Western culture' tells us, the blade itself incites to violence. There are several interpretations possible, but none congenial to mulishness.

    The issue is our culture, not our gun laws. Prior to 1900, a very high percentage of households in the USA had firearms. That percentage has gone down significantly during the 20th century. Yet the violence has increased. In WW2, fewer than 20% of our infantry forces would actually shoot at the enemy with intent to do harm. Most only fired their weapons to make noise or suppress enemy fire. Our current military stats suggest that 80% or more of our current infantry will engage with intent to do harm. Something has happened between 1950 and the present to make our culture much less unwilling to shoot and kill someone. THAT is the concern.
    The WW2 studies were too binary. It's reasonable to conclude that almost everyone at some points would shoot to kill, and at other points would avoid doing so. There would not have been a large proportion either of pure quasi-pacifists or of pure psychotic killers. I don't think changes in the post-Vietnam military, which includes the all-volunteer transition, are readily identifiable with broad cultural changes (not in that direction), nor with increasing mass violence contemporaneous with decreasing interpersonal violence today.*


    I don't like to get involved in debates on gun policy or 2nd Amendment hermeneutics - Protip: It's the hybrid model - but two things for debaters to keep in mind:

    1. Any gun control legislation must be understood as part of a program meant to change the unfavorable long-term conditions, which did not always obtain, and with time may be shifted. That the signing of a single statute does not magically resolve any issue is no argument against the drafting of statutes; it's an argument for comprehensiveness.
    2. The standing judicial interpretation of the 2nd Amendment is very new (not much older than Scalia's tenure). In interpreting the 2nd Amendment, and whether it really was meant to have anything to do with personal firearm ownership for purposes of personal self-defense, consider what the Founders themselves had to say about it, and the much more specific versions most of the States adopted in their Constitutions.

    And you know what's fecking funny? Very specific gun rights are already protected in most state constitutions, so forced interpretations of the federal Constitution is not even necessary. It's already failed to protect the states from subjugation to the federal government. And consider that the very ones who bleat about needing guns to defend us against government tyranny are the most likely to be co-opted as the paramilitary or enforcers of a tyrannous government. Either their guns are useless and they are swept away, or the illegitimate government enjoys its security by the stake of those selfsame.

    More than anything the gun problem in the USA can be identified as a problem of gun zealotry, gun worship, and the NRA priesthood. That's the heart of it, and I can't imagine what's to be done about it. In the meantime, debating the issue is almost as idle as debating WW2 alternate timelines. Gun control is impossible because gun zealots refuse to discuss the possibility of constitutionally-valid gun control, Heller and Kafka eat your heart out.



    *For changes in military culture after WW2 and Vietnam, here is one book (that I haven't read):
    http://a.co/ehzhVkH


    Quote Originally Posted by Crandar View Post
    Always relevant, unfortunately.
    https://www.theonion.com/no-way-to-p...s-r-1823016659

    The fetishist approach of part of the American society to an obsolete document is embarrassing. It is related imo to the deification of the... Founding Fathers (what an absurd title for our modern standards).

    It may have been stellar back in the day (which I doubt, check the advantages given to rural elites), but times change, as do societies. A modification here and there is not going to cause an Armageddon, I speak from experience.
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  8. #8

    Default Re: 17 More Dead Kids

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    A shiny new "gun control" law will accomplish little to nothing, no matter how heartfelt the sentiments behind it. There are approximately 270 million firearms in the United states, and between 6 and 8 million AR-15 or AR-15 style firearms (the type associated with this latest tragedy) depending who is doing the estimate. There are more unregistered firearms than their are illegal border crossers (a number we are told simply cannot be deported as it is beyond capability). With 300 million citizens and a total population of more than 327 million, we have about 4 firearms for every 5 people in the USA.
    I agree with you about there already being too many firearms in the USA for a total ban to work right away. However, it shouldn't be too easy to obtain a firearm as it is in the USA now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    After all, Switzerland is nearly as awash (per capita) with firearms as we....and you do not see the same rate of firearm murders. The mere presence of firearms in a society does not, of itself, beget more gun violence. There is still the choice to use that firearm with violent intent that is central to the issue.
    There are also countries with strict gun laws that don't have gun crime problems. Examples are Japan, South Korea, and Australia.
    Wooooo!!!

  9. #9
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: 17 More Dead Kids

    This shouldn't be about guns, it should be about people picking on someone. My condolences

  10. #10
    Coffee farmer extraordinaire Member spmetla's Avatar
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    Default Re: 17 More Dead Kids

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    A shiny new "gun control" law will accomplish little to nothing, no matter how heartfelt the sentiments behind it. There are approximately 270 million firearms in the United states, and between 6 and 8 million AR-15 or AR-15 style firearms (the type associated with this latest tragedy) depending who is doing the estimate. There are more unregistered firearms than their are illegal border crossers (a number we are told simply cannot be deported as it is beyond capability). With 300 million citizens and a total population of more than 327 million, we have about 4 firearms for every 5 people in the USA.
    .........
    So unless you are of the belief that we can change the second amendment and then confiscate/criminalize etc. all of those who try to keep their weapons, we are pretty much stuck with the conditions that now obtain regarding firearms, firearm ownership, and the accessibility of weapons.
    The second amendment doesn't need to be changed but we absolutely need new gun control laws. It should not be easier to buy guns than it is to buy alcohol. The current supply of guns makes new regulations pointless at first but you have to start somewhere. No one required licenses and inspections for cars at one point until it became clear that it was absolutely necessary.
    Additionally this is something that should be done at the federal level. The 2nd Amendment shouldn't change depending on which state I'm in. If I'm moving from State A to Z and pass through B it'd be stupid to be possibly breaking the law in the states in between.

    People should need to apply for a license for firearms, register all their firearms and have that right able to be waived if they are criminals, have violent mental problems, or a history of documented family abuse. In the US Military if someone is documented as committing domestic violence that Service-member is no longer allowed to handle weapons or munitions and their career is essentially ended as it should be. That same person has no hindrance as a citizen though from buy similar weapons that we use in the military (just lack burst and automatic fire).

    After all, Switzerland is nearly as awash (per capita) with firearms as we....and you do not see the same rate of firearm murders. The mere presence of firearms in a society does not, of itself, beget more gun violence. There is still the choice to use that firearm with violent intent that is central to the issue.

    The issue is our culture, not our gun laws. Prior to 1900, a very high percentage of households in the USA had firearms. That percentage has gone down significantly during the 20th century. Yet the violence has increased. In WW2, fewer than 20% of our infantry forces would actually shoot at the enemy with intent to do harm. Most only fired their weapons to make noise or suppress enemy fire. Our current military stats suggest that 80% or more of our current infantry will engage with intent to do harm. Something has happened between 1950 and the present to make our culture much less unwilling to shoot and kill someone. THAT is the concern.
    To change the culture we need to start by making firearms a serious thing. Owning and storing a firearm should be treated with the seriousness and forethought it deserves. They are not toys and should no longer be treated as such. Someone that wants something for home defense should first go through training, not merely purchase a rifle or pistol. Someone wanting to hunt should do the same. People with mini-arsenals should be allowed to do so but that should also then fly a red flag in some sort of database to ensure said person is first of all sane, doesn't engage in criminal activities and so forth. When parents own the weapons that a student uses to commit crimes or shoot up a school that parent should be liable as well.

    As for the constitutionality of such policy I'd point to the second amendment itself.
    A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
    It's hard to keep a well regulated militia if we have zero understanding of the safe usage and storing of peoples arms. Hell you could even tie gun ownership to militia use, can't own a firearm if you don't volunteer as a member of the state militia and meet it's standards and regulations. At the very least you could make the purchase of anything beyond a revolver, bolt-action, or muzzle loader something that requires a long line of checks and licenses.
    The mass of guns in the US would make the regulations pointless at first but buy back programs, changing attitudes, and most importantly education might change it so it's not like it is now 20 years from now. Doing nothing helps no one.

    The way the Swiss treat their guns in relation to military service is more in line with what our founding fathers wrote down far more than the ludicrous arsenals people maintain without limit today.
    https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/society...earms/43573832
    Regulating firearms in gun-loving Switzerland
    “What is decisive is not so much the number of weapons as the number of people who have access to a weapon,” he said. “Some people have real arsenals, but what really matters is access to at least one weapon."
    All 26 cantons keep track of the guns held within their borders as well as the ammunition. A seller of a hunting rifle, for example, must report the sale and the name of the owner to cantonal authorities.

    Ammunition and guns must be stored separately and securely.

    Carrying a gun in public requires a license that is only issued if the applicant proves they are qualified. The applicant must demonstrate a need it to protect themselves against existing dangers and must also pass an exam on violent crime laws and proper gun handling before being allowed to carry.

    A carrying license allows for the concealed carrying of a handgun. Unloaded weapons being transported to the shooting range or hunting field do not require such a carrying license.
    EDIT: I'll just point out I'm an NRA Life Member and its affiliated Hawaii Rifle Association. I own 3 rifles, a shotgun, and one pistol. I use them for hunting and culling my sheep herd and occasionally to shoot cans on a friends ranch land.

    This shouldn't be about guns, it should be about people picking on someone. My condolences
    The acceptable recourse shouldn't be blowing away a bunch of completely unrelated other people.
    Last edited by spmetla; 02-16-2018 at 08:44.

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    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: 17 More Dead Kids

    This is the USA's sick culture. It would take a long time and a massive amount of public will to rectify, neither of which are present.

    The solutions are pretty easy to write down:

    Massive tax on all weapons and bullets; restrict categories of both further.
    Ban all advertising.
    Enforce (and improve) all checks.
    Remove most carry licenses - if you're in certain areas (such as cities) there is never a need for a .50 pistol.
    Gun amnesties & destruction of captured weapons.
    Violent crimes lead to immediate confiscation of all owned weaponry, removal of license and an inability to get a new one. Only able to rent guns in highly restricted environments such as on the property of their gun club.

    And try to get through their thick skulls they're not living in 1870 in the Mid West.

    There's millions of them unaccounted for so this would take probably over a decade to get to the point where most are either "proper" hunting weaponry owned by people who want to hunt or inactivated curios.

    But it won't happen. Thoughts and prayers etc. Almost that ends up on autocomplete.

    Last edited by rory_20_uk; 02-16-2018 at 12:05.
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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: 17 More Dead Kids

    @spmetla, people who do this don't expect to survive it, they just want to inflict maximal harm before getting killed, it's their revenge on the world.

    In general, chools can be horrible cruel places for some, I don't like how this Always becomes a discussion about weapons, teachers should be made more observant

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    Member Member Agent Miles's Avatar
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    Default Re: 17 More Dead Kids

    Another wasteland thread of rhetoric.

    The world changes every day and we should react. Those groups that are mocked for their thoughts and prayers also offer solutions. Students at school needn't be fish in a barrel. Parents need to ask, "What should we do to secure our child's school?" and then pay to fix the problem. The nation has 20 million veterans. We can secure our schools.

    The Dems had 8 years to seize all the guns in the U.S. but didn't. Apparently all of the liberal base forgot that little point. The police can never be everywhere but criminals can be anywhere. That's why people have an actual need, not only a right, to defend themselves. If all the law-abiding citizens were disarmed, criminals would still have firearms. Also, dear intellectual geniuses on the Left, people can make an automatic firearm from scratch in their garage over a weekend. With simple tools and a box of sheet metal its possible to fashion a working M3 submachinegun from WW2 by hand. It's also possible to 3D print a bump-stock, silencer and 30-round clips. So all of your laws and regulations won't stop a criminal/terrorist/POS from doing what they do. Tougher gun control laws are a fool's paradise. Please cry your crocodile tears in silence while the rest of us do a security analysis of every school and hire some guards...armed with guns.
    Sometimes good people must kill bad people to protect the rest of the people.

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    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: 17 More Dead Kids

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Miles View Post
    Another wasteland thread of rhetoric.

    The world changes every day and we should react. Those groups that are mocked for their thoughts and prayers also offer solutions. Students at school needn't be fish in a barrel. Parents need to ask, "What should we do to secure our child's school?" and then pay to fix the problem. The nation has 20 million veterans. We can secure our schools.
    Yes, veterans!



    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Miles View Post
    Tougher gun control laws are a fool's paradise. Please cry your crocodile tears in silence while the rest of us do a security analysis of every school and hire some guards...armed with guns.
    Why not increase the budget of the army even further and place tanks in schools? Every criminal can get some sheet metal and build himself an armored car in his garage that makes him impervious to your armed guards. We all know this will happen because of all the even more numerous amok runs and school shootings in European countries with unarmed populaces where sheet metal M3s are regularly used.

    My thoughts and prayers go out to your argument.


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    Backordered Member CrossLOPER's Avatar
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    Default Re: 17 More Dead Kids

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Miles View Post
    Another wasteland thread of rhetoric.

    The world changes every day and we should react. Those groups that are mocked for their thoughts and prayers also offer solutions. Students at school needn't be fish in a barrel. Parents need to ask, "What should we do to secure our child's school?" and then pay to fix the problem. The nation has 20 million veterans. We can secure our schools.

    The Dems had 8 years to seize all the guns in the U.S. but didn't. Apparently all of the liberal base forgot that little point. The police can never be everywhere but criminals can be anywhere. That's why people have an actual need, not only a right, to defend themselves. If all the law-abiding citizens were disarmed, criminals would still have firearms. Also, dear intellectual geniuses on the Left, people can make an automatic firearm from scratch in their garage over a weekend. With simple tools and a box of sheet metal its possible to fashion a working M3 submachinegun from WW2 by hand. It's also possible to 3D print a bump-stock, silencer and 30-round clips. So all of your laws and regulations won't stop a criminal/terrorist/POS from doing what they do. Tougher gun control laws are a fool's paradise. Please cry your crocodile tears in silence while the rest of us do a security analysis of every school and hire some guards...armed with guns.
    So how would this have prevented the Las Vegas shooting?
    Last edited by CrossLOPER; 02-16-2018 at 17:03.
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    Default Re: 17 More Dead Kids

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    @spmetla, people who do this don't expect to survive it, they just want to inflict maximal harm before getting killed, it's their revenge on the world.

    In general, chools can be horrible cruel places for some, I don't like how this Always becomes a discussion about weapons, teachers should be made more observant
    Cruz used the fire alarm to increase the death toll, to get the school body moving and unprepared for this type of disaster.

    After shooting enough, he dumped his weapons and ammo and blended in with evacuating students, visited a McDonalds.

    He later surrendered himself to police.

    It does not look like he intended to go down that day. He is a terrorist like Dylann Roof.

    https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ded/344040002/

    Also, he's displayed psychopathic traits (like going after small animals and pets) for years. The time to intervene was years ago.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...=.60646553e671



    And again, Miles is 100% wrong.
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  17. #17
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: 17 More Dead Kids

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    Cruz used the fire alarm to increase the death toll, to get the school body moving and unprepared for this type of disaster.

    After shooting enough, he dumped his weapons and ammo and blended in with evacuating students, visited a McDonalds.

    He later surrendered himself to police.

    It does not look like he intended to go down that day. He is a terrorist like Dylann Roof.

    https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ded/344040002/

    Also, he's displayed psychopathic traits (like going after small animals and pets) for years. The time to intervene was years ago.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...=.60646553e671



    And again, Miles is 100% wrong.
    As far as I am aware he is not a terrorist since he is not using terror to further a political agenda.

    "Intervene"? What intervention would have made a difference in a country so awash with guns? Unless there are pre-crime laws where he can be locked up for the safety of society.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
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  18. #18

    Default Re: 17 More Dead Kids

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    As far as I am aware he is not a terrorist since he is not using terror to further a political agenda.

    "Intervene"? What intervention would have made a difference in a country so awash with guns? Unless there are pre-crime laws where he can be locked up for the safety of society.

    Intervention of the psychological or social services sort, when he was manifesting extremely problematic behaviors (before high school).


    I'm getting ahead of things, but that my impression of what the details so far point to, that he perceived some enemies (minorities, women, etc) beyond individual animosity, and wanted (and planned for some time) to strike a blow at them in a public way. Most school/mass shooters off themselves when the rampage ends; perhaps those who don't are more likely to be politically or ideologically driven. It's nothing more than tentative, but this millenium is giving researchers so much to work with.

    https://www.livescience.com/55076-sc...-shooters.html

    Lone-wolf terrorists are less likely to be suicidal than public mass shooters in the U.S., Lankford told Live Science, but many lone wolves suffer from mental-health problems or personal crises that echo those seen in public mass shooters. A terrorist is defined as someone who uses violence in pursuit of political aims, whereas a public mass shooter is generally driven by more personal motivations.

    However, these categories can blur and overlap, said Lankford. For example, the shooter who killed African-American congregants at a church in Charleston, South Carolina, ultimately was not charged with terrorism but rather a hate crime. That was a controversial decision, as many saw his desire to start a "race war" as a political motivation.
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  19. #19
    Coffee farmer extraordinaire Member spmetla's Avatar
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    Default Re: 17 More Dead Kids

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Miles View Post
    Another wasteland thread of rhetoric.

    The world changes every day and we should react. Those groups that are mocked for their thoughts and prayers also offer solutions. Students at school needn't be fish in a barrel. Parents need to ask, "What should we do to secure our child's school?" and then pay to fix the problem. The nation has 20 million veterans. We can secure our schools.
    Hiring guards everywhere is the solution? I guess that might work but you'd essentially be admitting that our security situation is like a third world country. In Iraq and Afghanistan I saw local police with Kalashnikovs guarding schools and public buildings to protect themselves from crazies, are we now in that same boat?

    The Dems had 8 years to seize all the guns in the U.S. but didn't. Apparently all of the liberal base forgot that little point. The police can never be everywhere but criminals can be anywhere. That's why people have an actual need, not only a right, to defend themselves. If all the law-abiding citizens were disarmed, criminals would still have firearms. Also, dear intellectual geniuses on the Left, people can make an automatic firearm from scratch in their garage over a weekend. With simple tools and a box of sheet metal its possible to fashion a working M3 submachinegun from WW2 by hand. It's also possible to 3D print a bump-stock, silencer and 30-round clips. So all of your laws and regulations won't stop a criminal/terrorist/POS from doing what they do. Tougher gun control laws are a fool's paradise. Please cry your crocodile tears in silence while the rest of us do a security analysis of every school and hire some guards...armed with guns.
    Why would they seize all the guns in the US? While there are SOME that advocate that it has never been the policy of the Democrats to do so. Despite 30 years of hearing about how Clinton and Obama are gonna sweep in with UN forces and disarm the US it never happens, it's just a scare tactic and right wing propaganda.
    Yes, people can make weapons at home, but how many do? How many have 3D printers and machine shop tools? Not that many. There will always be illicit firearms but we should't make it even easier by having no system of licenses and documentation. I'm a farmer and have access to all sorts of fertilizers that can be used to make explosives but I don't nor do most farmers.
    Regulations and laws mean that criminals and terrorists can't just go to Walmart and buy their weapons or ammo to commit crimes. Yes, they'd be buying off the blackmarket but that at least puts them in the realm of being watched by the ATF and FBI.

    Your doing a security analysis of every school? You're gonna hire enough guards and ensure they are all properly trained with firearms? How many guards per capita do we need then? Are we putting up barbed wire and metal detectors at all schools too? You yourself point out that the police can't be everywhere. Do we mandate active shooter training and the issuing of firearms for all public employees? Are you and your crew gonna pay the additional taxes that would be required to do this, because it's not gonna be cheap. Not to mention that future of prevalent checkpoints and armed guards everywhere is more appropriate for Nazi Germany or Soviet Russia, not the US.

    US citizens have a right to bear arms. Just like with free speech that right comes with responsibilities, let's make gun ownership require the seriousness and forethought that such a right requires.

    In general, schools can be horrible cruel places for some, I don't like how this Always becomes a discussion about weapons, teachers should be made more observant
    I agree that schools can be terrible. Hazing and bullying are terrible problems that are made even worse by the ease of doing so online with zero teacher/parent oversight. Teachers should be more observant but so should parents. If kids are being picked on going down the path of some sort of extremism the parents would probably be the first to notice. Plopping a kid in front of the TV or computer instead of engaging them and finding out about their way doesn't ease the problems of feeling isolated.
    Last edited by spmetla; 02-16-2018 at 20:33.

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  20. #20

    Default Re: 17 More Dead Kids

    Spmetla, for some people its consistent:



    They can watch this video, and it wouldn't trouble them if it were in Beslan, Russia; Peshawar, Pakistan; or Parkland, Florida. It's not a question of casualty count either, it just doesn't trouble them in an actionable way. They feel comfortable. They can defend themselves, they believe. Now if you try to hinder their self-defense, sure they call you crazy, humming "I'm the only one I got" as they go.

    But Corporal Grampaw can't make it on Social Security alone, so hand him an M-4 (to cut down on training) and set him to patrolling the hallways. Two birds one with stone there. They only believe in effective, rights-preserving solutions.
    Last edited by Montmorency; 02-16-2018 at 21:52.
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  21. #21
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: 17 More Dead Kids

    Quote Originally Posted by spmetla View Post
    US citizens have a right to bear arms. Just like with free speech that right comes with responsibilities, let's make gun ownership require the seriousness and forethought that such a right requires.
    Related to that it's also not quite true that having more sensible gun laws and by far reduced gun crime have to come with a completely disarmed population. A simple look at Wikipedia shows that even supposedly "soft" countries like Norway, Germany, Canada and France have around 30 guns per 100 citizens in private hands.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estima...ita_by_country

    And yes, we can also have tragedies like the one with Breivik or various mass shootings here and there. The difference is that the US have already had 29 or so this year and most of these other countries haven't had a single one (that I know of). In comparison, the amount of people who die from gunshots is simply significantly higher in the US.

    The point being that gun ownership in the US appears to be off the charts, but also that a complete disarmament of the population is not even necessary to significantly reduce the number of gun deaths per year. Not eliminate it perhaps, but a 95% reduction or thereabouts would seem quite significant and mean thousands of people wouldn't get shot every year in the US.

    Just look at the numbers for 2018: http://www.gunviolencearchive.org

    1,875 dead people and we're only in mid-February... and 30 mass shootings already...
    For comparison: http://www.rp-online.de/panorama/deu...-aid-1.3964297

    Germany had 57 deaths from gun shots in all of 2017, 27 of these from registered guns. Germany has a population of ~82 million people

    The US had 15,590 deaths in 2017 and a population of ~320 million people.

    It shouldn't take a genius to see that the numbers don't quite scale. It's 0.71 gun deaths per million people in 2017 in Germany and 48.72 in the US... Meanwhile Germany still has ~30% of the guns per pop as the US do compared to 1.4% the gun death rate per million people.

    The solution of throwing even more guns at even more people (especially potentially unstable veterans, who are apparently among the groups most likey to start a mass shooting themselves, without wanting to disrespect them) is surely not going to work.

    By the way, just for "fun", compare the 2017 US figure to ones from a war zone: https://www.statista.com/statistics/...ar-since-2003/


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  22. #22
    Coffee farmer extraordinaire Member spmetla's Avatar
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    Default Re: 17 More Dead Kids

    I know and it absolutely sickens me. I think some want more attacks like this to justify their bunker mentality waiting for the day to prove themselves. There is justification for being armed for self defense, heck the police response time for my sister during a home invasion was about 90 minutes and I'm glad her husband was armed and able mexican stand off the guy away. If we make licenses and regulations necessary the same law abiding citizens that are armed now will remain so, it does however make it more difficult for potential terrorists and criminals to acquire firearms.

    The far right in this country keep telling themselves that we are the most free and that we're the only ones with guns when its so completely far from the facts. Taking tests to own and use something with the deadly potential like a firearm makes sense just like taking a test to drive a car. It doesn't hinder ones rights to do so, it just requires more caring than going to Walmart and producing ID to show your over 18.

    Since 9/11 white right wing extremists are killing far more Americans than Islamists are each year and somehow I'm labeled a left-wing liberal (despite being patently not one) for wanting to do something about it.
    Last edited by spmetla; 02-16-2018 at 22:27.

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  23. #23

    Default Re: 17 More Dead Kids

    Here's a nice video on German gun (weapons) control:



    Tangentially, there are a lot of videos of armed German police being surprisingly judicious in their use of force:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k21se4UOC-A
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlcquEbJCec
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    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: 17 More Dead Kids

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    Intervention of the psychological or social services sort, when he was manifesting extremely problematic behaviors (before high school).
    Sure, in a developed country with a functioning health service. The USA doesn't fit that category.

    Next you'll be expecting the police to be mentally balanced before they are given a gun and badge - where would it end??!?!?

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
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    Default Re: 17 More Dead Kids

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Miles View Post
    Another wasteland thread of rhetoric.

    The world changes every day and we should react. Those groups that are mocked for their thoughts and prayers also offer solutions. Students at school needn't be fish in a barrel. Parents need to ask, "What should we do to secure our child's school?" and then pay to fix the problem. The nation has 20 million veterans. We can secure our schools.

    The Dems had 8 years to seize all the guns in the U.S. but didn't. Apparently all of the liberal base forgot that little point. The police can never be everywhere but criminals can be anywhere. That's why people have an actual need, not only a right, to defend themselves. If all the law-abiding citizens were disarmed, criminals would still have firearms. Also, dear intellectual geniuses on the Left, people can make an automatic firearm from scratch in their garage over a weekend. With simple tools and a box of sheet metal its possible to fashion a working M3 submachinegun from WW2 by hand. It's also possible to 3D print a bump-stock, silencer and 30-round clips. So all of your laws and regulations won't stop a criminal/terrorist/POS from doing what they do. Tougher gun control laws are a fool's paradise. Please cry your crocodile tears in silence while the rest of us do a security analysis of every school and hire some guards...armed with guns.
    This is why America will fall as a great power.
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    Default Re: 17 More Dead Kids

    Vitiate Man.

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    Default Re: 17 More Dead Kids

    NRA members need to take back their organization from the manufacturers.
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  28. #28
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    Default Re: 17 More Dead Kids

    Again, our culture has always been "awash with guns." When we founded ourselves, the weapons available in peoples homes were at or near military grade weaponry and the ownership thereof was not simply allowed, but expected and required. All males from 16 to 60 were liable for service in the militia save for a few who, by virtue of the oaths associated with their profession (clergy and doctors), could opt out of such service. Outside of urban areas, it was common for most of the women to have basic skills with those same weapons as well. There was no federal prohibition against the ownership of artillery either, and artillery was commonplace on ocean-going ships owned by US citizens and organizations. Current restrictions on weapon ownership in the USA (bans on use/carrying in numerous public areas, licensure requirements for concealed weapons, difficulties and added costs to purchase automatic weapons, extremely high taxes for all modern "destructive devices" in excess of .50 caliber) mean that restrictions on weapons currently are at the highest point they have ever been in US history (excepting, possibly, the machine gun ban, though that is arguable).

    Homicide rates in the USA have, with some years of exception, always been higher than those of other Western culture states. For example, during the stretch when Canada and the USA both had a "Wild West" the homicide rate per 1000 in the USA was about 4 times that of Canada. Between 1865 and 1940, a notable percentage of these homicides were lynchings, sometimes in the service of a rather informal justice process, but more often as a means of expressing racism. Note that our current murder (all degrees) rate of 4.88 is higher than virtually all of Northern, Southern, and Western Europe. The Caribbean, Africa, and South America are all far more murder rife. In general, the New World is far more murderous than the Old World. Prima facie this suggests that a firm rule of law coupled to a largely disarmed population yields fewer murders. However, that combination itself represents a dramatic difference in cultural values.

    Again, this concern is, to my lights, NOT a gun control issue. There is a cultural problem here that will not be alleviated by some "restriction" on gun ownership.

    In this specific case, we now have learned, the system should have worked. The FBI's bureaucracy failed to forward a report as to the dangerousness of this shooter for action by the Miami office. Spurred by this mass killing, other reports in the system were fast-tracked and 4 persons detained (at least one of whom was a virtual certainty to have become a similar attack). There are certainly things that can and should be improved in spotting and disarming those persons most at risk of this sort of thing (and there are, almost always, warning signs that were ignored or not acted upon). Nothing wrong with honing this.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

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  29. #29
    Coffee farmer extraordinaire Member spmetla's Avatar
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    Default Re: 17 More Dead Kids

    Restrictions can alter the culture though. Do you oppose people needing to get trained on firearms, registering their weapons and having a license that periodically needs to be re-upped? Require proper safe storage with ammunition separate. Guns are a serious matter and should be treated as much.
    Like I pointed out with cars, there was a time when no one needed drivers licenses, cars didn't need to have seat belts. Cars, just like guns have changed technologically. Cars can go faster and the roads are setup to allow that. Semi auto guns are now common place where bolt and lever actions were the norm until the 1980s outside of surplus military sales (usually veterans purchasing M1 Garands or carbines). Car culture changed with the times but also together with regulations (on licensing and the car industry).
    We also had a culture of cigarette use, government taxing, restrictions on where you can smoke and education on the health risk together have created a culture that's actually quite hostile to smoking in public now. The 'war on tobacco' took about 30 years to change America's culture. A similar war against gun violence would probably take decades as well.

    The above will not stop all these mass shootings but could spur a culture of responsibility and seriousness into guns as opposed to them being grown boys toys. For those that want to own and shoot guns and their children to do the same being forced to teach their kids safety and storage, the rules and regulations to pass a licensing test. If we create a culture in which all legal gun owners are for the most part well trained, store their arms securely, and there are more safeguards against 'loonies' stocking up for a private war then perhaps in the future these types of events will focus on the enforcement aspect and not the guns themselves.

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  30. #30

    Default Re: 17 More Dead Kids

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    Again, our culture has always been "awash with guns." When we founded ourselves, the weapons available in peoples homes were at or near military grade weaponry and the ownership thereof was not simply allowed, but expected and required. All males from 16 to 60 were liable for service in the militia save for a few who, by virtue of the oaths associated with their profession (clergy and doctors), could opt out of such service. Outside of urban areas, it was common for most of the women to have basic skills with those same weapons as well. There was no federal prohibition against the ownership of artillery either, and artillery was commonplace on ocean-going ships owned by US citizens and organizations. Current restrictions on weapon ownership in the USA (bans on use/carrying in numerous public areas, licensure requirements for concealed weapons, difficulties and added costs to purchase automatic weapons, extremely high taxes for all modern "destructive devices" in excess of .50 caliber) mean that restrictions on weapons currently are at the highest point they have ever been in US history (excepting, possibly, the machine gun ban, though that is arguable).

    Homicide rates in the USA have, with some years of exception, always been higher than those of other Western culture states. For example, during the stretch when Canada and the USA both had a "Wild West" the homicide rate per 1000 in the USA was about 4 times that of Canada. Between 1865 and 1940, a notable percentage of these homicides were lynchings, sometimes in the service of a rather informal justice process, but more often as a means of expressing racism. Note that our current murder (all degrees) rate of 4.88 is higher than virtually all of Northern, Southern, and Western Europe. The Caribbean, Africa, and South America are all far more murder rife. In general, the New World is far more murderous than the Old World. Prima facie this suggests that a firm rule of law coupled to a largely disarmed population yields fewer murders. However, that combination itself represents a dramatic difference in cultural values.

    Again, this concern is, to my lights, NOT a gun control issue. There is a cultural problem here that will not be alleviated by some "restriction" on gun ownership.

    In this specific case, we now have learned, the system should have worked. The FBI's bureaucracy failed to forward a report as to the dangerousness of this shooter for action by the Miami office. Spurred by this mass killing, other reports in the system were fast-tracked and 4 persons detained (at least one of whom was a virtual certainty to have become a similar attack). There are certainly things that can and should be improved in spotting and disarming those persons most at risk of this sort of thing (and there are, almost always, warning signs that were ignored or not acted upon). Nothing wrong with honing this.
    America's crime rates are not out of line with those of other first-world countries. It's just the lethality of crime. The lethality of crime is accounted for by guns (which in turn must encourage a more maximal, paranoid, ruthless approach by criminals, police, and bystanders).
    https://www.vox.com/2015/8/27/921716...ca-guns-europe

    A landmark 1997 study actually tried to answer this question. Its findings — which scholars say still hold up — are that America doesn't really have a significantly higher rate of crime compared to similar countries. But that crime is much likelier to be lethal: American criminals just kill more people than do their counterparts in other developed countries. And guns appear to be a big part of what makes this difference.
    [...]
    They found, pretty definitively, that the conventional wisdom was wrong. "Rates of common property crimes in the United States are comparable to those reported in many other Western industrial nations, but rates of lethal violence in the United States are much higher," they write. "Violence is not a crime problem."
    [...]
    Why does this happen? It's not because, as you might think, American violent criminals are just more likely to kill people. "Only a minority of Los Angeles homicides grow out of criminal encounters like robbery and rape," they find (there's no reason to believe the pattern would differ in other cities). So even if it could be shown that American robbery and rape rates are across-the-board higher than those in similar countries (which doesn't appear true today), that still wouldn't explain why America has so many more homicides than other countries.

    Again, Zimring and Hawkins's LA data was revealing. "A far greater proportion of Los Angeles homicides grow out of arguments and other social encounters between acquaintances [than robbery or rape]," they find.

    This is where guns enter the story. The mere presence of firearms, according to Zimring and Hawkins, makes a merely tense situation more likely to turn deadly. When a gang member argues with another gang member, or a robber sticks up a liquor store, there's always a risk that the situation can escalate to some kind of violence. But when people have a handheld tool that is specially engineered for killing efficiently, escalation to murder becomes much, much more likely.

    And indeed, that's what Zimring and Hawkins's data found.

    "A series of specific comparisons of the death rates from property crime and assault in New York City and London show how enormous differences in death risk can be explained even while general patterns are similar," they explain. "A preference for crimes of personal force and the willingness and ability to use guns in robbery make similar levels of property crime fifty-four times as deadly in New York City as in London."

    Guns, not criminality per se, are the problem.

    Gun control works and has worked on the state level.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/17/n...necticut.html?

    In the aftermath of the rampage at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, where 20 children and six educators were killed in 2012, state lawmakers in Connecticut set out to draft some of the toughest gun measures in the country.

    They largely succeeded — significantly expanding an existing ban on the sale of assault weapons, prohibiting the sale of magazines with more than 10 rounds and requiring the registration of existing assault rifles and higher-capacity magazines. The state also required background checks for all firearms sales and created a registry of weapons offenders, including those accused of illegally possessing a firearm.
    [...]
    Analyses by the Giffords Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence show that, with few exceptions, states with the strictest gun-control measures, including California, Connecticut, New Jersey and New York, have the lowest rates of gun deaths, while those with the most lax laws like Alabama, Alaska and Louisiana, have the highest[...] State officials say Connecticut has experienced the fastest drop in violent crime of any state over the last four years.

    [...]

    In New York, Gov. Andrew M. Cuomo signed a law a month after the massacre at Sandy Hook that is, in some respects, stricter than the one in Connecticut. The New York law not only bans the sale of assault weapons and imposes universal background checks, it also prohibits both the sale — and possession — of magazines with a capacity of more than 10 rounds. And it requires mental health professionals to alert the authorities about at-risk patients who should not be allowed to buy a firearm. As of Feb. 8, 77,447 people deemed to be dangerously mentally ill had been added to the database.

    Pointing to Chicago or Baltimore presumes that their laws have not reduced gun deaths, and is largely an indictment of the (lax) gun laws of adjacent states. Find the optimal gun control bundles and apply them. Review in 5 or 10 years, add another layer and replace the least worthwhile elements. We have reason to believe that policy bundles, as opposed to single policies, are successful in reducing firearm deaths.

    I haven't looked specifically into the Clinton-era policies, including the Assault Weapon Ban, but I have my suspicions...


    Spmetla has it right. Politics is not always downstream from culture. Change the laws, and the behaviors and attitudes will follow. If gun maximalists want to go hard, we must go even harder.


    (There's an argument out there that elevated gun control is unacceptable because it would be used to target black people. This is misplaced. Of course it will be used to target minorities, that's what regularly happens; that's what has happened before. It's not a special function of gun control that police and courts abuse POC. The existence of racism means we need to address racism, not place a moratorium on all new laws or law enforcement until the day racism is over! Anyway, if gun-control advocates are correct a diminished gun market and gun culture will in turn make police encounters with POC less fraught and dangerous, since police can step down their aggression in the arms race with criminals, and vice versa. Not to be construed as an association of POC with crime, but a simple syllogism that if both criminals and police are less violent, and POC continue to have disproportionate interactions with police for any reason, POC will be subjected to less police violence.)
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