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  1. #1

    Default The Essence of Trickle Down

    The Supremes will weigh in on a little dispute.
    Union fees: why on earth should anyone pay those?
    I mean unions (unlike corporations) aren't even real people.

    http://business.financialpost.com/pm...-sector-unions

    Having failed to make unions illegal, this is the next best thing.
    Ja-mata TosaInu

  2. #2
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Essence of Trickle Down

    On the narrow issue of whether unions can take your money for a service you don't want to me the answer is clearly "no" - in the same way any other company can not just help itself to my money and tell me it is offering a service. Leave that sort of theft to the State!

    Unions are even in their deeply flawed state a necessary evil. In an ideal world there would be some system of audit to ensure the leadership are not just bought by the company they represent the workers of.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
    Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
    "If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
    If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute talk with the average voter. Winston Churchill

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  3. #3

    Default Re: The Essence of Trickle Down

    It is a little ironic that you can make that statement:

    No, they should not have any resources to do what they do: Yes, they should exist.

    Most union members I know wouldn't have it any other way; better pay, health, dental maybe even a retirement program.
    The bloody history of how we got to a point where many don't see them as necessary is lost in time.
    Looking at how labor is treated where unions do not exist, tells me little has really changed.
    Ja-mata TosaInu

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  4. #4
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Essence of Trickle Down

    Quote Originally Posted by HopAlongBunny View Post
    It is a little ironic that you can make that statement:

    No, they should not have any resources to do what they do: Yes, they should exist.

    Most union members I know wouldn't have it any other way; better pay, health, dental maybe even a retirement program.
    The bloody history of how we got to a point where many don't see them as necessary is lost in time.
    Looking at how labor is treated where unions do not exist, tells me little has really changed.
    They should have the resources from those who agreed to receive the service. Otherwise why should they do a good job? They can take the money - even when the person doesn't want it taken. Again, leave that to the State.

    I am well aware of how bad things were before unions. And certainly in Europe much of what Unions fought for is now codified in Law which does make them a lot less relevant: the work environment I have is covered by Health and Safety laws, not the agitation of the work-site union. They still have relevance, but deaths in factories,, shipyards and mines is not a common occurrence.

    The bosses of unions are mainly concerned about themselves, as is to be expected - in the UK they'll easily take home over £100k for what is a much easier job than those who they represent. But hopefully they do in the meantime do something to help those who pay them beyond the potted statements every time there are job losses.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
    Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
    "If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
    If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute talk with the average voter. Winston Churchill

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  5. #5

    Default Re: The Essence of Trickle Down

    I agree with most of what you say.
    There are good unions/bad unions; even within the same union, representation of different parts can lead to variable outcomes.
    If there was a way to do away with unions and maintain the same voice for labor, I don't think many would object.
    The problem, is people
    Ja-mata TosaInu

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  6. #6
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Essence of Trickle Down

    Quote Originally Posted by HopAlongBunny View Post
    I agree with most of what you say.
    There are good unions/bad unions; even within the same union, representation of different parts can lead to variable outcomes.
    If there was a way to do away with unions and maintain the same voice for labor, I don't think many would object.
    The problem, is people
    American unions are, all too often, out of step with their members needs. They are voluntary in most places. If you join, you agree to pay the dues.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken

  7. #7

    Default Re: The Essence of Trickle Down

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    They should have the resources from those who agreed to receive the service. Otherwise why should they do a good job? They can take the money - even when the person doesn't want it taken. Again, leave that to the State.

    I am well aware of how bad things were before unions. And certainly in Europe much of what Unions fought for is now codified in Law which does make them a lot less relevant: the work environment I have is covered by Health and Safety laws, not the agitation of the work-site union. They still have relevance, but deaths in factories,, shipyards and mines is not a common occurrence.

    The bosses of unions are mainly concerned about themselves, as is to be expected - in the UK they'll easily take home over £100k for what is a much easier job than those who they represent. But hopefully they do in the meantime do something to help those who pay them beyond the potted statements every time there are job losses.

    How do you prevent the free rider issue?


  8. #8
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Essence of Trickle Down

    On some issues you can't - such as Health and Safety. Others such as pay negotiations would only be available for unions under collective bargaining.

    But it is for the Unions to demonstrate value.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
    Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
    "If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
    If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute talk with the average voter. Winston Churchill

  9. #9
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Essence of Trickle Down

    Quote Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name View Post
    How do you prevent the free rider issue?
    In a right-to-work you cannot prevent this, save by "guilting" those who benefit freely into joining.

    In a closed-shop it is not an issue. Though closed-shops in our past have been part of the reason for the migration to the "Sun Belt."
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken

  10. #10
    Toh-GAH-koo-reh Member Togakure's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Essence of Trickle Down

    Quote Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name View Post
    How do you prevent the free rider issue?
    State of California civil servants must pay a "fair share" fee--significantly less than full membership, but still an expense. In my personal experience this didn't work out so well. When I had major issues I went to the union to see if they could help. They went through the motions but in the end were essentially effectless. I got the "well, you should have joined us." Union administrators and members of course do not view "fair share" payers in the same light--not by a long shot. It was a very frustrating and disappointing experience.

    Edit: heh, sorry. I'm grossly out of practice "foruming." Neglected to notice the dates this thread spans. Not quite a necro, but long past relevancy.
    Last edited by Togakure; 02-20-2019 at 21:05.
    Be intent on loyalty
    While others aspire to perform meritorious services
    Concentrate on purity of intent
    While those around you are beset by egoism


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