What About Those who Have Never Heard of Jesus

[total relism]

What of Those That Have Never Heard of Christianity

This objection is, however, fallacious, because it assumes that those who have never heard about Christ are judged on the same basis as those who have. But the Bible says that the unreached will be judged on a quite different basis than those who have heard the gospel. God will judge the unreached on the basis of their response to His self-revelation in nature and conscience. The Bible says that from the created order alone, all persons can know that a Creator God exists and that God has implanted His moral law in the hearts of all persons so that they are held morally accountable to God (Rom. 1.20; 2.14-15). The Bible promises salvation to anyone who responds affirmatively to this self-revelation of God (Rom. 2.7). Now this does not mean that they can be saved apart from Christ. Rather it means that the benefits of Christ's sacrifice can be applied to them without their conscious knowledge of Christ. They would be like people in the Old Testament before Jesus came who had no conscious knowledge of Christ but who were saved on the basis of his sacrifice through their response to the information that God had revealed to them. And, thus, salvation is truly available to all persons at all times. It all depends upon our free response.

The book or Romans says anyone who would be saved, will be saved. So it matters not where someone is born as everyone willing will be saved. God knows who will accept him by there reaction to nature and there conscious. No one is sent to hell for not hearing the bible, but for sinning against a holy god.


12 Some people do not know God's law when they sin. They will not be judged by the law when they die. Others do know God's law when they sin. They will be judged by the law. 13 For the hearers of the law are not righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be declared righteous. 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men
-Romans 2 13-16


31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the LORD. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”
-Jeremiah 31 31-34


all know god through creation and what is made

20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse
-Romans 1.20


The heavens declare the glory of God;
the skies proclaim the work of his hands.
2 Day after day they pour forth speech;
night after night they reveal knowledge.
3 They have no speech, they use no words;
no sound is heard from them.
4 Yet their voice goes out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world.
-Psalm 19.4

so he will sprinkle many nations,
and kings will shut their mouths because of him.
For what they were not told, they will see,
and what they have not heard, they will understand.
-Isiah 52.15

Nevertheless He did not leave Himself without witness, in that He did good, gave us rain from heaven and fruitful seasons, filling our hearts with food and gladness.
-Acts 14.17


In Colossians 1.23 Paul says every creature under haven has had gospel preached to them, the book was written in 60-62 A.D

Therefore, the One whom you worship without knowing, Him I proclaim to you: 24 “God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. 25 Nor is He worshiped with men’s hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things. 26 And He has made from one blood[c] every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, 27 so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also His offspring.’ 29 Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man’s devising. 30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”
-Acts 17


no one will be judged for sins they were unaware of

for where there is no law there is no transgression.
-Romans chapter 4. 15

If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin.
John 15.22 also 9.41

13 In fact, sin was in the world before the law, but sin is not charged to one's account when there is no law.
-Romans 5.13

Paul argues with the Jews in Romans chapter 3 saying how can the law save? Is god, god only to those that have the law?

28For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.
-Romans 3 28-30


An example of a believer in god who had not yet heard gospel message in Acts 16 v 14 it reads

14 One of those listening was a woman from the city of Thyatira named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth. She was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul’s message. 15 When she and the members of her household were baptized, she invited us to her home. “If you consider me a believer in the Lord,” she said, “come and stay at my house.” And she persuaded us.

C. S. Lewis in Mere Christianity said

"There are people in other religions who are being led by God's secret influence to concentrate on those parts of their religion which are in agreement with Christianity, and who thus belong to Christ without knowing it. For example a Buddhist of good will may be led to concentrate more and more on the Buddhist teaching about mercy and to leave in the background (though he might still say he believed) the Buddhist teaching on certain points. Many of the good Pagans long before Christ's birth may have been in this position."
According to world famous evangelist Billy Graham, people can love or know Jesus without being conscious of it. If unbelievers who do not know the name of Jesus turn to the "only light they have" they are going to be in heaven:

"I think that everybody that loves or knows Christ, whether they are conscious of it or not, they are members of the body of Christ. . . . [God] is calling people out of the world for his name, whether they come from the Muslim world, or the Buddhist world or the non-believing world, they are members of the Body of Christ because they have been called by God. They may not know the name of Jesus but they know in their hearts that they need something they do not have, and they turn to the only light they have, and I think that they are saved and they are going to be with us in heaven."
-Billy Graham

The official stance of the catholic church agrees.

“Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation” (quoting, Lumen Gentium, 16).
“Although in ways known to himself God can lead those, who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men” (quoting Ad Gentes, 7, another document from Vatican II).

“I am the way, the truth and the life, no man comes to the Father except by me” (John 14:6), which I quoted above, this same Jesus also said, “If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin” (John 15:22; see also John 9:41). Jesus presents a very important principle here. A person is not responsible for what they could not have known. …... “those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to lead a good life” will not be denied by Divine Providence what the Council fathers called “the helps necessary for salvation” (Lumen Gentium,16).


Do all Old Testament Pagans all go to Hell?

Old testament Pagans have no law from God and thus while sinners and guilty before God and in need of his salvation, are not judged in the way Jews would have been see Romans 5.13 Romans 4.15. God overlooked former sins of pagans [ indicates some were believers in the true god] acts 17 22-30. Than after the resurrection Jesus preached the gospel to those who had died in Old Testament times and were sheol.

[I]They will give an account to the One who stands ready to judge the living and the dead. 6 For this reason the gospel was also preached to those who are now dead, so that, although they might be judged by men in the fleshly realm, they might live by God in the spiritual realm
-1 peter 4 5-6

18 For Christ also suffered for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous,that He might bring you to God, after being put to death in the fleshly realm but made alive in the spiritual realm.19 In that state He also went and made a proclamation to the spirits in prison[ 20 who in the past were disobedient, when God patiently waited in the days of Noah while an ark was being prepared. In it a few—that is, eight people[—were saved through water
-1 peter 3 18-20

Children

Most Christians say babies who die young go straight o haven see Deuteronomy 1.39 Romans 5.13 7.9 numbers 14.29 and similar passages. King David had his infant child killed and in verse 23 it says "But now that he is dead, why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I’ll go to him, but he will never return to me.”

David concluded that to see his child in haven he must also go.

[Gilrandir]

Do all Old Testament Pagans all go to Hell?

I told you, there is no hell. Or not any more, at least.

[Husar]

Children

Most Christians say babies who die young go straight o haven see Deuteronomy 1.39 Romans 5.13 7.9 numbers 14.29 and similar passages. King David had his infant child killed and in verse 23 it says "But now that he is dead, why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I’ll go to him, but he will never return to me.”

David concluded that to see his child in haven he must also go.

Wouldn't that make abortion okay since you're guaranteeing that this soul goes to heaven before it can be corrupted by sin?
And King David did it, too. Or is that considered cheating because it's too easy for the young soul?

Imagine that we have to live through life with sickness, stress and temptations while an aborted child would already be guaranteed a place in heaven without any challenge. Why do we even have to live?

[Kagemusha]

Why do we even have to live?

Good question. Is this form of energy the pen ultimate form that nothing can beat? Or is it yet again the core of human mind. Greed. Nothing can be better then what we are?

[total relism]

Wouldn't that make abortion okay since you're guaranteeing that this soul goes to heaven before it can be corrupted by sin?
And King David did it, too. Or is that considered cheating because it's too easy for the young soul?

Imagine that we have to live through life with sickness, stress and temptations while an aborted child would already be guaranteed a place in heaven without any challenge. Why do we even have to live?

Great question. But no murder is wrong no matter what. That babies get a free pass has to do with Gods will for all to get to haven and their guiltless. An old man would get to haven if he was not aware of his sin. David did not kill his baby i see i worded it very confusing. It should have said "when david's child died" or something like that.


That is a great question. I hope you bring it up when I do a thread on why is their death and suffering isent god all loving.

[Kagemusha]

Just to make it clear where im coming from. I think all major religion Gods are the same. This very energy we all are is the "God" and we are all part of it. The only purpose for that energy seems to be to evolve into new forms. Which in itself is purpose enough. I think we are all part of the same everlasting current and hell is not punishment, but waste.

[Fragony]

Doubt I'll go to hell. My mother's cleaner is a devout catholic, she always sings psalms (when my mother isn't there she is a rather hardcore atheist, I am just nothing at al), she insists that god loves me but that could also have to do with that I always give her things she could never afford herself

[Crandar]

Whether or not you will go to Hell depends on when you celebrate Easter. If you go to the church tonight with candles and stuff at 00:00, then hell awaits for you, Gregorian scum!

[rory_20_uk]

Erm... Why are we basing a discussion on a heavily edited / redacted list of random documents from a period over several hundred of years that have been to a greater or lesser degree translated...

And from this mess draw any meaningful conclusions??!?

[total relism]

Erm... Why are we basing a discussion on a heavily edited / redacted list of random documents from a period over several hundred of years that have been to a greater or lesser degree translated...

And from this mess draw any meaningful conclusions??!?

I think the assumption is that the bible has been "heavily edited" "redacted" and a "list of random documents" I agree if your assumption that you have been told is true without been given the counter, is true, that this post means little. However what if it is instead the word of god that has been preserved, than the op has meaning. My op is not to correct false info on the translation of the bible [that thread is coming] but to answer what is a common question on the bible. I find I will do post on a subject and often atheist will say they dont believe because of some other issue. Than I answer that issue and a new comes up. It simply takes time to answer them all. When the thread on the translation of the bible will be done, than you can bring up some other unrelated objection and sleep at night. But please permit me time to address each issue on its thread topic.


Happy Easter. Really biblically firstfruits.

But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep
1 Corinthians 15.20

[rory_20_uk]

Knock yourself out. I'd rather look for theology in Terry Pratchett's work. Better written and just as likely to be the Word of God.

[Beskar]

Do Old Testament Pagans go to Hell is an interesting idea... especially since Hel (goddess of death, with domain named after her) comes from the Nordic Pagan religion. This was co-opted by Christianity hundreds of years after Jesus's death. To my knowledge, Hel didn't exist in that time period.

[Fragony]

Pagan believes had their own version, being lost forever

[total relism]

Do Old Testament Pagans go to Hell is an interesting idea... especially since Hel (goddess of death, with domain named after her) comes from the Nordic Pagan religion. This was co-opted by Christianity hundreds of years after Jesus's death. To my knowledge, Hel didn't exist in that time period.

? Hell has been part of the bible since the old testament long before Jesus was born in Bethlehem. It is contained in the writings of the fathers and early manuscripts long before your claimed "hundreds of years after jesus's death." If your referring to the actual word as translated from the original than that is fine. Thus we could also say the word Jesus [not original Hebrew/greek/semtic languages was co opted many hundred of years long after the death of yeshua by those christian english speaking peoples.

[Fragony]

You are making a few mistakes, I have stuidied history and will never disregared the importance of theoligy, I just selll antiques art, but you might want to look up some things, read more listen less

[Gilrandir]

what if it is instead the word of god that has been preserved, than the op has meaning.

This word of god was selected by humans out of similar words and only after that it acquired the current form. If a collection of humans (with the neccessary authority) gets together and makes another choice, the word of god will be quite different.

[Beskar]

? Hell has been part of the bible since the old testament long before Jesus was born in Bethlehem. It is contained in the writings of the fathers and early manuscripts long before your claimed "hundreds of years after jesus's death." If your referring to the actual word as translated from the original than that is fine. Thus we could also say the word Jesus [not original Hebrew/greek/semtic languages was co opted many hundred of years long after the death of yeshua by those christian english speaking peoples.

No it didn't. Concept of the Underworld has existed before Jesus, such as Hades from the Greek and Duat from the Eygptians, Sheol from Hebrew which means the unseen place (and many others). In the new testament, there was talk of Salvation and joining the Kingdom of Heaven, but those who did not enter the Kingdom were simply outside of it like how Earth is not in the Kingdom of Heaven (and not in a place called Hell; ie: a place of torment everlasting). It was the Church was started to invent these alternative afterlives such as purgatory and even different levels of Infernus (still not Hell). The idea of eternal punishment came 150 years after Jesus. The word Hell comes from Hel, which was the punishment in the Norse religion of Bad People opposed to entering Valhalla and it is the Christianising influences which co-opted and changed it. It was Dante's The Divine Comedy which really defined and structured Hell in 1320.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

This word of god was selected by humans out of similar words and only after that it acquired the current form. If a collection of humans (with the neccessary authority) gets together and makes another choice, the word of god will be quite different.

Glirandir:

This argument as to selection of contents and the argument regarding translations are more or less moot to this discussion. Those who believe in the Bible believe that it is inspired by the Holy Spirit as to selection and translation. They will not be moved by your argument. Those who preference human agency over divine inspiration are already convinced of your argument.

The faithful will, mostly, be open to your arguing that they themselves may be misunderstanding the messages contained in the Bible. They will simply ignore an attempt to assert that the Bible is, ab initio, solely human in origin.

[total relism]

This word of god was selected by humans out of similar words and only after that it acquired the current form. If a collection of humans (with the neccessary authority) gets together and makes another choice, the word of god will be quite different.

That will be a great comment for you to support and defend when the subject of the op is centered around that [the thread is coming] but as i asked a previous poster, please allow me the time to address each issue by themselves on each thread. Otherwise i would respond to them all on one thread and where is the fun in that?

[total relism]

No it didn't. Concept of the Underworld has existed before Jesus, such as Hades from the Greek and Duat from the Eygptians, Sheol from Hebrew which means the unseen place (and many others). In the new testament, there was talk of Salvation and joining the Kingdom of Heaven, but those who did not enter the Kingdom were simply outside of it like how Earth is not in the Kingdom of Heaven (and not in a place called Hell; ie: a place of torment everlasting). It was the Church was started to invent these alternative afterlives such as purgatory and even different levels of Infernus (still not Hell). The idea of eternal punishment came 150 years after Jesus. The word Hell comes from Hel, which was the punishment in the Norse religion of Bad People opposed to entering Valhalla and it is the Christianising influences which co-opted and changed it. It was Dante's The Divine Comedy which really defined and structured Hell in 1320.

The way of life is above to the wise, that he may depart from hell beneath.
-Proverbs 15.24

Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are wise[a] will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever.
-Daniel 12-2,3

Her house is the way to Sheol,
going down to the chambers of death
Proverbs 7.27

“And they shall go forth and look
Upon the corpses of the men
Who have transgressed against Me.
For their worm does not die,
And their fire is not quenched.
They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.
Isiah 66.24

But your dead will live, Lord;
their bodies will rise—
let those who dwell in the dust
wake up and shout for joy—
your dew is like the dew of the morning;
the earth will give birth to her dead.
Go, my people, enter your rooms
and shut the doors behind you;
hide yourselves for a little while
until his wrath has passed by.
See, the Lord is coming out of his dwelling
to punish the people of the earth for their sins.
The earth will disclose the blood shed on it;
the earth will conceal its slain no longer.
Isiah 26 19-21


“I will deliver this people from the power of the grave;
I will redeem them from death.
Where, O death, are your plagues?
Where, O grave, is your destruction?
Hosea 13.14

Your dead shall live, their corpses[a] shall rise.
O dwellers in the dust, awake and sing for joy!
For your dew is a radiant dew,
and the earth will give birth to those long dead.
Isiah 26.19

also see 1 Samuel 28 12-14 psalm 17.15 Isiah 25 8-9 Ezekiel 37 11-13 job 19.26 to name some of them a few more beneath.


Also as i will point out in my thread on the translation of the bible, the church fathers quoted the NT long before your time period of claiming they invented hell. Besides the fact we have manuscripts from the first century that mention hell. This will be a future thread. Plus your not allowing for a proper theology. Hell as you are referring to is the eternal place of those who reject god, nobody is in hell yet. Nobody in OT times was in hell. Sheol is the place of the dead not until the final judgment does anyone go to hell.


But also to correct some of your history.


Regarding your first question, before we delve into the instances of Hell in the O.T., let's look at some biblical statements about the nature of Hell.
* Hell is real (Matt. 5:21-22, 27-30; 10:28: 23:15, 33)
* Hell is Ruled by God, not Satan (Matt. 25:41, 46, Luke 12:5)
* Hell Involves Pain (Matt. 8:11-12; 13:30, 40-43, 49-50; 18:6-9; 24:51)
* Hell and Eternity (Mark 9:42-48)
* Hell involves consciousness and regret (Luke 16:19-31)
* Hell and the Present (John 3:18-20, 36; 2 Pet. 2:4-6; Jude 1:6-7)
* Hell and the Future (Rev. 20:10-15)

the N.T. the word "hell" in English comes from three principal Greek words, Hades, Gehenna and Tartarus, plus there are several other allusions to Hell and other terms for a place of torment. Some of these include outer darkness (exoteros skotos), the Abyss and Bottomless Pit (Both terms are abussos in the Greek) and the final destination of those not written in the Lamb's Book of Life, the Lake of Fire (limne pur).

So back to your question, why is Hell mentioned so much more in the N.T. than the O.T.? Well, first of all it should be noted that in older versions (KJV, Geneva, and Douay-Rheims) the word "hell" appears 31 times in the O.T. and only 23 times in the N.T. In all 31 O.T. instances, the Hebrew word is "Sheol" and this word has a couple of different meanings. It can mean simply "the grave" or "the tomb in the earth where a body is laid after death". It can also refer to the two separate places where the righteous and the wicked went after death. There are also other times in Hebrew where the term Sheol is not used, but the concept of a destination place for the dead souls of mankind is clearly implied or directly stated. In the newer English translation, the majority of times Sheol is just transliterated into English as Sheol, although "hell" is kept in many places (19 of the 31 times in the NKJV) but zero times in almost all other English translations (ESV, NIV, NAS)

Psalm 63:9 and Ezekiel 32:24 both seem to imply that Hell (Sheol in Hebrew) is in the lower parts of the earth. Sheol in O.T. theology had two components; the grave for the righteous (called Abraham's bosom in Luke 16) and a place of conscious torment for the wicked, the Pit (usually shachath or bowr in Hebrew) which seems to be where the rich man in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus was. The N.T. contains one reference to the lower parts of the earth in Eph. 4:9, which is often viewed as relating to Sheol, specifically Abraham's bosom. Other references to the Abyss or the Bottomless Pit also seem to indicate a physical opening at the earth's surface to a physical location in the interior of the earth. It must be pointed out however, that in each of these cases where the lower parts of the earth, the Abyss or the Bottomless Pit are mentioned, the genre is either parable, poetic or prophetic, not historical narrative, and the verses do have symbols and/or symbolic language (with the exception of Eph. 4:9 but this passage has been hotly debated among theologians in any event).

However, in Luke 16, Abraham says to the rich man that there is a great gulf (Mega-chasm would be the transliteration) between Abraham's bosom and Sheol/Hades. The rich man looked up and saw Abraham, which seems to make an earthly hades unlikely. (Would there really be an upper Hades for the good and lower Hades for the wicked, and if so, how could the rich man see Abraham through miles of rock)? We must also remember that in this parable, Christ had not yet died and resurrected, and therefore the physical bodies of Abraham, Lazarus and the rich man were still in the ground. We look forward to a physical and spiritual resurrection when we die, because of what Christ accomplished (1 Cor. 15:20-23), even the limited understanding of resurrection by O.T. saints and first century Jews reveals that they understood the body would not be raised until the time of the end (Dan. 12:2 and John 11:24).

But to the crux of your question, even though Sheol is mention more than hell (O.T. vs. N.T.) the concept of an eternal place of torment for the wicked is mentioned more in the N.T. Why is this? One could claim that it is just a matter of progressive revelation. {For example the concept of the Church is termed a mystery in the N.T. meaning it was not revealed until then. It was unknown even in principle in the O.T. If a person wanted to "know the Lord" in O.T. times he had to proselytize to Judaism, and place himself under the Law. Of course we know that the just shall live by their faith (Hab. 2:4) and that O.T. saints were not justified by the Law, but the Law did point out their sinfulness and their need for a Savior. But even Christ said in His Day that at that time in history "salvation is of the Jews" (John 4:22).} In some degree this is correct. Since the O.T. saints had to look forward to Christ with only 39 books of Scripture, and we as Christians have the privilege of looking back at Christ and having 66 books of Scripture, one could say we have a greater degree of Truth given to us. This ties in with heaven, hell, resurrection, indwelling of the Holy Spirit, immortal bodies, etc. So of course we have had more revealed to us, and it makes sense that if Christ and His Apostles tell us much about heaven, how our new bodies will be, how God will finally judge the world at the end of the age, he would have to also give us more detail on the "flip side of the coin".

We are told much more in the N.T. about demons, demonic activity, Satan's purposes with human government (in Matthew especially), and of course where all these wicked beings and the wicked humans will go after the consummation occurs (especially in 1 and 2 Thess., 2 Pet. Jude and Revelation). Of course we are given hints of these things in Daniel, (and we actually have greater detail about "end times" human battles and governments in the O.T. prophets) and a few of the minor prophets, but since the concept of hell is tied into resurrection of the dead, and this concept is much more fully examined in light of Christ's Resurrection and subsequent judgment of the world at the consummation, of necessity the concept of hell is going to get more treatment in the N.T.

But on top of just the fact of progressive revelation, one other reason that hell is mentioned in the N.T. more than the O.T. is that the events are closer to consummation, and many theologians think that our concept of Hell (especially as outlined by Jesus in the Gospels) is really a description of the Lake of Fire (see for example, Matt. 18:8 and Mark 9:43-48). Since the Lake of Fire is currently not in use (and will not be so until the events of Rev. 19:20 and 20:10-15) and won't be fully utilized until the Great White Throne judgment, and since the Lake of Fire is not mentioned until Rev. 19:20, there was no need to get into the concept of the differentiation of the two in O.T. times, or even in early Apostolic times. Remember also that until the time of Christ's resurrection (contrast the parable in Luke 16 to 2 Cor. 5:8) the condition of an Abraham's Bosom Sheol for the righteous and a Sheol (in Luke 16:23 linked with Hades in the N.T.) for the wicked was in place, but now when a Christian dies, he is present with the Lord in heaven. Therefore something had to have changed between O.T. times and the resurrection of Christ, in regards to where righteous souls went after death. When you read through the O.T., there is a concept of being with God after death (Job 19:25-26, Psalm 16:9-11), but as stated earlier, it appears that this concept was thought to occur at the time of the end or the end of the age. Before then, it seems to appear that O.T. saints thought that they would just sleep until the final resurrection of the just in death (2 Sam. 7:12, 2 Kings 20:21, Job 14:10-12, Ps 6:5 30:9 88:10,11 and Isa. 38:17-19), or if they thought of an afterlife, it was one of being with family and (maybe?) God (Gen. 15:15, 49:29, Psa. 16:11 if viewed in this light, Psa. 17:15). Therefore since we are not looking forward to a promise, but backwards to a Savior, and since we know that Savior will also judge the world and that those not written in His book of Life will be cast into the Lake of Fire (along with Hades and death), whereas the O.T. saints did not know this, or knew only dimly and in part, we can expect there to be a fuller revelation of what these things are, both heaven and hell in the N.T..

[Pannonian]

The way of life is above to the wise, that he may depart from hell beneath.
-Proverbs 15.24

Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are wise[a] will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever.
-Daniel 12-2,3

Her house is the way to Sheol,
going down to the chambers of death
Proverbs 7.27

“And they shall go forth and look
Upon the corpses of the men
Who have transgressed against Me.
For their worm does not die,
And their fire is not quenched.
They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.
Isiah 66.24

But your dead will live, Lord;
their bodies will rise—
let those who dwell in the dust
wake up and shout for joy—
your dew is like the dew of the morning;
the earth will give birth to her dead.
Go, my people, enter your rooms
and shut the doors behind you;
hide yourselves for a little while
until his wrath has passed by.
See, the Lord is coming out of his dwelling
to punish the people of the earth for their sins.
The earth will disclose the blood shed on it;
the earth will conceal its slain no longer.
Isiah 26 19-21


“I will deliver this people from the power of the grave;
I will redeem them from death.
Where, O death, are your plagues?
Where, O grave, is your destruction?
Hosea 13.14

Your dead shall live, their corpses[a] shall rise.
O dwellers in the dust, awake and sing for joy!
For your dew is a radiant dew,
and the earth will give birth to those long dead.
Isiah 26.19

also see 1 Samuel 28 12-14 psalm 17.15 Isiah 25 8-9 Ezekiel 37 11-13 job 19.26 to name some of them a few more beneath.


Also as i will point out in my thread on the translation of the bible, the church fathers quoted the NT long before your time period of claiming they invented hell. Besides the fact we have manuscripts from the first century that mention hell. This will be a future thread. Plus your not allowing for a proper theology. Hell as you are referring to is the eternal place of those who reject god, nobody is in hell yet. Nobody in OT times was in hell. Sheol is the place of the dead not until the final judgment does anyone go to hell.


But also to correct some of your history.


Regarding your first question, before we delve into the instances of Hell in the O.T., let's look at some biblical statements about the nature of Hell.
* Hell is real (Matt. 5:21-22, 27-30; 10:28: 23:15, 33)
* Hell is Ruled by God, not Satan (Matt. 25:41, 46, Luke 12:5)
* Hell Involves Pain (Matt. 8:11-12; 13:30, 40-43, 49-50; 18:6-9; 24:51)
* Hell and Eternity (Mark 9:42-48)
* Hell involves consciousness and regret (Luke 16:19-31)
* Hell and the Present (John 3:18-20, 36; 2 Pet. 2:4-6; Jude 1:6-7)
* Hell and the Future (Rev. 20:10-15)

the N.T. the word "hell" in English comes from three principal Greek words, Hades, Gehenna and Tartarus, plus there are several other allusions to Hell and other terms for a place of torment. Some of these include outer darkness (exoteros skotos), the Abyss and Bottomless Pit (Both terms are abussos in the Greek) and the final destination of those not written in the Lamb's Book of Life, the Lake of Fire (limne pur).

So back to your question, why is Hell mentioned so much more in the N.T. than the O.T.? Well, first of all it should be noted that in older versions (KJV, Geneva, and Douay-Rheims) the word "hell" appears 31 times in the O.T. and only 23 times in the N.T. In all 31 O.T. instances, the Hebrew word is "Sheol" and this word has a couple of different meanings. It can mean simply "the grave" or "the tomb in the earth where a body is laid after death". It can also refer to the two separate places where the righteous and the wicked went after death. There are also other times in Hebrew where the term Sheol is not used, but the concept of a destination place for the dead souls of mankind is clearly implied or directly stated. In the newer English translation, the majority of times Sheol is just transliterated into English as Sheol, although "hell" is kept in many places (19 of the 31 times in the NKJV) but zero times in almost all other English translations (ESV, NIV, NAS)

Psalm 63:9 and Ezekiel 32:24 both seem to imply that Hell (Sheol in Hebrew) is in the lower parts of the earth. Sheol in O.T. theology had two components; the grave for the righteous (called Abraham's bosom in Luke 16) and a place of conscious torment for the wicked, the Pit (usually shachath or bowr in Hebrew) which seems to be where the rich man in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus was. The N.T. contains one reference to the lower parts of the earth in Eph. 4:9, which is often viewed as relating to Sheol, specifically Abraham's bosom. Other references to the Abyss or the Bottomless Pit also seem to indicate a physical opening at the earth's surface to a physical location in the interior of the earth. It must be pointed out however, that in each of these cases where the lower parts of the earth, the Abyss or the Bottomless Pit are mentioned, the genre is either parable, poetic or prophetic, not historical narrative, and the verses do have symbols and/or symbolic language (with the exception of Eph. 4:9 but this passage has been hotly debated among theologians in any event).

However, in Luke 16, Abraham says to the rich man that there is a great gulf (Mega-chasm would be the transliteration) between Abraham's bosom and Sheol/Hades. The rich man looked up and saw Abraham, which seems to make an earthly hades unlikely. (Would there really be an upper Hades for the good and lower Hades for the wicked, and if so, how could the rich man see Abraham through miles of rock)? We must also remember that in this parable, Christ had not yet died and resurrected, and therefore the physical bodies of Abraham, Lazarus and the rich man were still in the ground. We look forward to a physical and spiritual resurrection when we die, because of what Christ accomplished (1 Cor. 15:20-23), even the limited understanding of resurrection by O.T. saints and first century Jews reveals that they understood the body would not be raised until the time of the end (Dan. 12:2 and John 11:24).

But to the crux of your question, even though Sheol is mention more than hell (O.T. vs. N.T.) the concept of an eternal place of torment for the wicked is mentioned more in the N.T. Why is this? One could claim that it is just a matter of progressive revelation. {For example the concept of the Church is termed a mystery in the N.T. meaning it was not revealed until then. It was unknown even in principle in the O.T. If a person wanted to "know the Lord" in O.T. times he had to proselytize to Judaism, and place himself under the Law. Of course we know that the just shall live by their faith (Hab. 2:4) and that O.T. saints were not justified by the Law, but the Law did point out their sinfulness and their need for a Savior. But even Christ said in His Day that at that time in history "salvation is of the Jews" (John 4:22).} In some degree this is correct. Since the O.T. saints had to look forward to Christ with only 39 books of Scripture, and we as Christians have the privilege of looking back at Christ and having 66 books of Scripture, one could say we have a greater degree of Truth given to us. This ties in with heaven, hell, resurrection, indwelling of the Holy Spirit, immortal bodies, etc. So of course we have had more revealed to us, and it makes sense that if Christ and His Apostles tell us much about heaven, how our new bodies will be, how God will finally judge the world at the end of the age, he would have to also give us more detail on the "flip side of the coin".

We are told much more in the N.T. about demons, demonic activity, Satan's purposes with human government (in Matthew especially), and of course where all these wicked beings and the wicked humans will go after the consummation occurs (especially in 1 and 2 Thess., 2 Pet. Jude and Revelation). Of course we are given hints of these things in Daniel, (and we actually have greater detail about "end times" human battles and governments in the O.T. prophets) and a few of the minor prophets, but since the concept of hell is tied into resurrection of the dead, and this concept is much more fully examined in light of Christ's Resurrection and subsequent judgment of the world at the consummation, of necessity the concept of hell is going to get more treatment in the N.T.

But on top of just the fact of progressive revelation, one other reason that hell is mentioned in the N.T. more than the O.T. is that the events are closer to consummation, and many theologians think that our concept of Hell (especially as outlined by Jesus in the Gospels) is really a description of the Lake of Fire (see for example, Matt. 18:8 and Mark 9:43-48). Since the Lake of Fire is currently not in use (and will not be so until the events of Rev. 19:20 and 20:10-15) and won't be fully utilized until the Great White Throne judgment, and since the Lake of Fire is not mentioned until Rev. 19:20, there was no need to get into the concept of the differentiation of the two in O.T. times, or even in early Apostolic times. Remember also that until the time of Christ's resurrection (contrast the parable in Luke 16 to 2 Cor. 5:8) the condition of an Abraham's Bosom Sheol for the righteous and a Sheol (in Luke 16:23 linked with Hades in the N.T.) for the wicked was in place, but now when a Christian dies, he is present with the Lord in heaven. Therefore something had to have changed between O.T. times and the resurrection of Christ, in regards to where righteous souls went after death. When you read through the O.T., there is a concept of being with God after death (Job 19:25-26, Psalm 16:9-11), but as stated earlier, it appears that this concept was thought to occur at the time of the end or the end of the age. Before then, it seems to appear that O.T. saints thought that they would just sleep until the final resurrection of the just in death (2 Sam. 7:12, 2 Kings 20:21, Job 14:10-12, Ps 6:5 30:9 88:10,11 and Isa. 38:17-19), or if they thought of an afterlife, it was one of being with family and (maybe?) God (Gen. 15:15, 49:29, Psa. 16:11 if viewed in this light, Psa. 17:15). Therefore since we are not looking forward to a promise, but backwards to a Savior, and since we know that Savior will also judge the world and that those not written in His book of Life will be cast into the Lake of Fire (along with Hades and death), whereas the O.T. saints did not know this, or knew only dimly and in part, we can expect there to be a fuller revelation of what these things are, both heaven and hell in the N.T..

What's intrinsically noteworthy about the above quotes? What's their subject matter, and how qualified is the author to comment on said subject matter? Also, I'm interested in far eastern civilisations. The above does not relate to life in, let's say China circa 500 BCE, in any practical way, unlike the writings of Sun Zi or even the sayings of Kong Zi. One being an experienced commander, the other being an experienced government official, speaking on their specialist subjects, with a track record of training students to a high level of ability. When I study the history of China during the Spring-Autumn period, what's the relevance of the above?

[total relism]

What's intrinsically noteworthy about the above quotes? What's their subject matter, and how qualified is the author to comment on said subject matter? Also, I'm interested in far eastern civilisations. The above does not relate to life in, let's say China circa 500 BCE, in any practical way, unlike the writings of Sun Zi or even the sayings of Kong Zi. One being an experienced commander, the other being an experienced government official, speaking on their specialist subjects, with a track record of training students to a high level of ability. When I study the history of China during the Spring-Autumn period, what's the relevance of the above?

I think you have the wrong thread my friend. I was responding to a claim that "hell" did not arise in the OT or even at the time of Jesus but was claimed to be invented by the church long after as they stole it from Norse religion rather than from the teachings of jesus or from manuscripts from of the bible. As to its author


For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
2 peter 1.21

All Scripture is given by inspiration of God
2 Timothy 3:16


I would suggest this kind of authorship has relevance to all people everywhere. How do we know its trueley gods word? that good sir is for another thread. However the topic of this thread, is actually What of Those That Have Never Heard of Christianity, if you have anything to add on comment on this thread, I would love to hear it.

[rory_20_uk]

The Romans, and later Empires like having a simple way of treating everyone who is not part of the "correct" part of Christianity as fair game to kill / enslave etc.

Those branches (such as the Cathars) who were more moderate tended to get wiped out by the expansionist xenophobes. So the whole point is to maximise the ability of kingdoms to expand. If every heathen needed individually vetting as to whether they were good people or not it would really slow things down.

[Gilrandir]

That will be a great comment for you to support and defend when the subject of the op is centered around that [the thread is coming] but as i asked a previous poster, please allow me the time to address each issue by themselves on each thread. Otherwise i would respond to them all on one thread and where is the fun in that?

Do you expect one can get fun in reading lengthy posts?

[Gilrandir]

Those who believe in the Bible believe that it is inspired by the Holy Spirit as to selection and translation.

An outstanding selectivity on the part of the Holy Spirit: finding time to inspire a book, but no time to correct the wrongs afflicting the world.

[Pannonian]

I think you have the wrong thread my friend. I was responding to a claim that "hell" did not arise in the OT or even at the time of Jesus but was claimed to be invented by the church long after as they stole it from Norse religion rather than from the teachings of jesus or from manuscripts from of the bible. As to its author


For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
2 peter 1.21

All Scripture is given by inspiration of God
2 Timothy 3:16


I would suggest this kind of authorship has relevance to all people everywhere. How do we know its trueley gods word? that good sir is for another thread. However the topic of this thread, is actually What of Those That Have Never Heard of Christianity, if you have anything to add on comment on this thread, I would love to hear it.

My point is that, at the time of the two above philosophers, there were debates about how to bring about better government, and how best to make war. Practical things with visible effects and corroborable qualifications. Since this was before Jesus, of course they've never heard of Jesus. Does this make their concerns unworthy or irrelevant? To these people, the provable expertise of advisers like Sun Zi and Kong Zi was important, as their welfare depended on this. What are the provenances of the sources you quote? Sun Zi famously trained a corps of concubines before he was allowed near real soldiers. Kong Zi had a network of outstanding administrators who had trained under him, spreading his reputation throughout the kingdoms. What qualifications did your sources have? What's to stop someone like you from setting up as a quotable holy man? How would anyone know the difference between them and you?

[total relism]

My point is that, at the time of the two above philosophers, there were debates about how to bring about better government, and how best to make war. Practical things with visible effects and corroborable qualifications. Since this was before Jesus, of course they've never heard of Jesus. Does this make their concerns unworthy or irrelevant? To these people, the provable expertise of advisers like Sun Zi and Kong Zi was important, as their welfare depended on this. What are the provenances of the sources you quote? Sun Zi famously trained a corps of concubines before he was allowed near real soldiers. Kong Zi had a network of outstanding administrators who had trained under him, spreading his reputation throughout the kingdoms. What qualifications did your sources have? What's to stop someone like you from setting up as a quotable holy man? How would anyone know the difference between them and you?

So if i am correct you are asking a very good just question, why listen to the supposed god inspired men of the bible? what separates them from others men. Is this correct? if not i think i am lost.

But my answer is the same, I think you have the wrong thread my friend.How do we know its gods word? that good sir is for another thread. The topic of this thread, is actually What of Those That Have Never Heard of Christianity, if you have anything to add on comment on this thread, I would love to hear it.

[total relism]

@ Beskar


I was thinking today [yes it happens from time to time] and correct me if i am wrong. But you are saying that the early christians got their ideas on hell not from those early first few century manuscripts, not from the apostles or the church fathers who lived with and learned from the apostles, not from the old testament. But instead these jewish converts who were willing to die for their beliefs to not conform to the pagan world around them under great pressure, instead hundreds of years later they copied from pagans that they never met, the norse?


do you see why this is hard to accept rather than they copied from those early Greek biblical manuscripts and learned from Christianity from jesus and the apostles as they converted those around them?

[total relism]

The Romans, and later Empires like having a simple way of treating everyone who is not part of the "correct" part of Christianity as fair game to kill / enslave etc.

Those branches (such as the Cathars) who were more moderate tended to get wiped out by the expansionist xenophobes. So the whole point is to maximise the ability of kingdoms to expand. If every heathen needed individually vetting as to whether they were good people or not it would really slow things down.

The romans fed the Christians and jews to lions. The "Cathars" were from the 12th and 14th century. Rome was long gone. Not sure what your post has to do with the bible or the op.

[total relism]

Do you expect one can get fun in reading lengthy posts?

Great point that supports me, I need to try as best as i can in keeping these short and sweet. One topic at a time gentlemen.