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Thread: Future of the European Union

  1. #301
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Future of the European Union

    i will. i will do it for you.
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

  2. #302
    Ja mata, TosaInu Forum Administrator edyzmedieval's Avatar
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    Default Re: Future of the European Union

    One thing that will have a reverberating impact on the EU - the arrest of Carlos Ghosn.

    Since Renault & Nissan were very well connected and the EU & Japan made a free trade zone, this will impact both the overall exports (plus & minus) but also things like Nissan not going to produce cars in the UK any more.
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  3. #303
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Future of the European Union

    Quote Originally Posted by edyzmedieval View Post
    but also things like Nissan not going to produce cars in the UK any more.
    come again?

    Of far more signaificance:

    “The unanimity rule in taxation increasingly appears as politically anachronistic, legally problematic and economically counterproductive. I am fully aware of how sensitive an issue this is, but that cannot mean that the discussion is off limits. So let’s begin this debate today.”

    The words of the EU discussing the end of the national veto on tax policy.
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

  4. #304
    Ja mata, TosaInu Forum Administrator edyzmedieval's Avatar
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    Default Re: Future of the European Union

    I'm banking on the fact that UK won't leave EU - the cost is far too high, it's a total disaster so far.

    Also, bit of a mistake on my part, Nissan won't produce a certain model any more - they are rethinking their operations.

    Here -> https://www.theguardian.com/business...-in-sunderland

    https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/...142818781.html
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  5. #305
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Future of the European Union

    Quote Originally Posted by edyzmedieval View Post
    I'm banking on the fact that UK won't leave EU - the cost is far too high, it's a total disaster so far.

    Also, bit of a mistake on my part, Nissan won't produce a certain model any more - they are rethinking their operations.

    Here -> https://www.theguardian.com/business...-in-sunderland

    https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/...142818781.html
    They won't immediately shut down all operations, as there is still physical and human infrastructure here for existing models. . What they will do is what they've done: move production of new models to elsewhere. As existing models come to the end of their life, there won't be any replacements, as all the new infrastructure has been set up in places where they won't suffer from the UK's post-Brexit situation. May had a meeting with Nissan execs shortly after she took power, assuring them that the UK would be a good place to continue business in. They've obviously weighed her words against her actions, and found her words to be worthless.

  6. #306
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Future of the European Union

    Gammon says the UK is at war with the EU.

  7. #307
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Future of the European Union

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    They won't immediately shut down all operations, as there is still physical and human infrastructure here for existing models. . What they will do is what they've done: move production of new models to elsewhere. As existing models come to the end of their life, there won't be any replacements, as all the new infrastructure has been set up in places where they won't suffer from the UK's post-Brexit situation. May had a meeting with Nissan execs shortly after she took power, assuring them that the UK would be a good place to continue business in. They've obviously weighed her words against her actions, and found her words to be worthless.
    Or perhaps it has something to do with the massive drop in Diesel sales in Europe due to the scandal in Germany due to extremely lax QC. Or perhaps the new free trade agreement with the UK - this means they will get tariff-free on cars even if they're made in Japan (one of the inevitable casualties of free trade agreements which are better overall but do create some loosers).

    But no. Nissan doesn't like May and therefore is moving. If they'd liked the PM they'd be building a whole new town here since personal relationships really matter that much...

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
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  8. #308
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Future of the European Union

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    Or perhaps it has something to do with the massive drop in Diesel sales in Europe due to the scandal in Germany due to extremely lax QC. Or perhaps the new free trade agreement with the UK - this means they will get tariff-free on cars even if they're made in Japan (one of the inevitable casualties of free trade agreements which are better overall but do create some loosers).

    But no. Nissan doesn't like May and therefore is moving. If they'd liked the PM they'd be building a whole new town here since personal relationships really matter that much...

    What new free trade agreement with the UK are you talking about? Have you been smoking Liam Fox's stash again? The new free trade agreement Japan recently signed that we benefit from was with the EU, which we are currently a member of. We will stop benefiting from that agreement on 1st April, courtesy of your vote.

    Brexit: Government didn't offer Nissan money to stay in UK (20th January 2017)
    Nissan was offered secret state aid to cope with Brexit, minister concedes (4th February 2019)

    Lies and deception - that's the Brexit way.

  9. #309
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Future of the European Union

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    What new free trade agreement with the UK are you talking about? Have you been smoking Liam Fox's stash again? The new free trade agreement Japan recently signed that we benefit from was with the EU, which we are currently a member of. We will stop benefiting from that agreement on 1st April, courtesy of your vote.

    Brexit: Government didn't offer Nissan money to stay in UK (20th January 2017)
    Nissan was offered secret state aid to cope with Brexit, minister concedes (4th February 2019)

    Lies and deception - that's the Brexit way.
    Politicians lying??!? Say it ain't so! Something that only done by the Brexiteers, eh?

    Apologies, the EU, not the UK.

    My mistake aside... you appear to ignore both the decrease of diesel and that the agreement reduces tarrifs... so Nissan might as well build them in Japan. So this is in fact due to the EU/Japan agreement.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
    Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
    "If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
    If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute talk with the average voter. Winston Churchill

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  10. #310
    Ja mata, TosaInu Forum Administrator edyzmedieval's Avatar
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    Default Re: Future of the European Union

    https://www.cbronline.com/news/european-commission-mob

    Well that did not end well when you have to negotiate a deal with the people. The EU called the protesters on copyright issues a "mob".
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  11. #311
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Future of the European Union

    So, fours dsys later and i can no longer contain my amazement that the topic isn't fizzing with reaction to Jupiters encyclical on the future of the eu.

    does nobody care?
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

  12. #312
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Future of the European Union

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    So, fours dsys later and i can no longer contain my amazement that the topic isn't fizzing with reaction to Jupiters encyclical on the future of the eu.

    does nobody care?
    I have some questions:

    1. Who are the Jupiters?
    2. Is encyclical an adjective, a verb or a noun and how is it related to cycling or cycles?
    3. Why can I not find any recent articles about the EU when I use your words as search terms? All I get are space missions, completely unrelated stuff and one article about Macron not being a Jupiter from 2017.


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  13. #313
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Future of the European Union

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    I have some questions:

    1. Who are the Jupiters?
    2. Is encyclical an adjective, a verb or a noun and how is it related to cycling or cycles?
    3. Why can I not find any recent articles about the EU when I use your words as search terms? All I get are space missions, completely unrelated stuff and one article about Macron not being a Jupiter from 2017.
    If you can't find anything then nobody does care.
    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
    The article exists for a reason yes, I did not write it...

  14. #314
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Future of the European Union

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    I have some questions:

    1. Who are the Jupiters?
    2. Is encyclical an adjective, a verb or a noun and how is it related to cycling or cycles?
    3. Why can I not find any recent articles about the EU when I use your words as search terms? All I get are space missions, completely unrelated stuff and one article about Macron not being a Jupiter from 2017.
    Niche terms are usually understood by insiders in Facebook (or other social media) circles. The Leave campaign used phishing to get user data, which they then used for targeted ad campaigns on Facebook primarily disseminating untruths. When a Parliamentary committee asked the director of this campaign for information on what they'd been telling people, he refused. The committee published some of these ads, but not having been in these circles, they do not have a full list.

    Jupiter is probably a nickname used by said circle to refer to some individual or other. Encyclical might be their term for a circular letter; rarely seen in the normal world, but when the leader in one of these circles uses it, it becomes current among the members of that circle. So for Furunculus, those words immediately mean something to him, but to us outsiders, these words might as well be gobbledigook.

  15. #315
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Future of the European Union

    Conspiracy theory stuff is fake news.

    No need for a conspiracy theory when the truth will do just nicely.

    Everyone in france (and informed people elsewhere), is aware that Jupiter=Macron:
    https://www.google.com/search?client...macron+jupiter
    One 188k results

    Re: encyclical - i do you all the credit of being educated chaps, so i consider it clearly to be understood:
    That the word combined with Macrons divine self-image, references his attempt to speak to europe about the EU.

    But, i'm guessing his grand vision doesn't enthuse anyone...
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

  16. #316
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Future of the European Union

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    Re: encyclical - i do you all the credit of being educated chaps, so i consider it clearly to be understood:
    That the word combined with Macrons divine self-image, references his attempt to speak to europe about the EU.
    I kinda figured the Macron thing from the one article I found about him and had encyclical figured out with a simple search before I even sent the last post. But since I don't want to have to search several times whenebver I try to answer you, it can't hurt to use somewhat plainer language. Being educated doesn't mean one is a walking dictionary of everything. It simply saves everybody some time. I also try not to ask you about German politics using the local language, terms and jokes you don't know.

    I assume you mean this: https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...mmanuel-macron

    (see, providing a simple link to a source that you and I can trust gives a much better basis for debate than cryptic slang terms that you then disguise as intellectual talk )

    It sounds a lot less neoliberal than I expected from Macron, but at the same time it seems vague enough that a lot could happen in practice.
    EU reform is not a bad idea though, if Brexit leads to that, then thank you for not ruining it for us any longer.


    "Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu

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  17. #317

    Default Re: Future of the European Union

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    It sounds a lot less neoliberal than I expected from Macron, but at the same time it seems vague enough that a lot could happen in practice.
    EU reform is not a bad idea though, if Brexit leads to that, then thank you for not ruining it for us any longer.
    Yanis Varoufakis around the same time on EU reform (European New Deal), and the European Spring coalition running in the EU parliamentary elections this May:

    The 2008 global financial crisis — the modern 1929 crash — set off a vicious chain reaction across Europe. By 2010 it had irreparably damaged the foundations of the eurozone, causing the establishment to bend its own rules and commit crimes against logic in order to bail out its banker friends. By 2013 the neoliberal ideology that had legitimised the EU’s oligarchic technocracy had plunged millions into misery, even through the enactment of official policies: socialism for the financiers and harsh austerity for the many. These policies were practised as much by conservatives as by social democrats. By 2015 the surrender of the Syriza government in Greece had divided and disheartened the left, robbing Europe of the short-lived hope that progressives rising up in the streets would alter the balance of power.

    Since then, anger has combined with hopelessness to create a vacuum, soon filled by the organised misanthropy of a Nationalist International triumphing across Europe, and making Donald Trump a very happy man. Against the background of an establishment that increasingly resembles the unhappy Weimar Republic, and of the recalcitrant racists produced by the crisis’s deflationary forces, the European Union is fragmenting. With Angela Merkel on the way out and Emmanuel Macron’s European agenda dead on arrival, the European election in May could prove the last chance progressives have to make a difference at a pan-European level.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Something very odd has been happening in recent years: many on the left have come to view open borders as bad for the working class. Jean-Luc Mélenchon of La France Insoumise has said several times, ‘I’ve never been in favour of freedom of arrival.’ In a speech on posted workers at the European Parliament in July 2016, he said migrants were ‘taking the bread out of the mouths’ of French workers. He has since regretted this statement, though his views on the impact of migration on French wages have not changed.

    This is not new. In 1907 Morris Hillquit, the founder of the Socialist Party of America, tabled a resolution to end ‘the wilful importation of cheap foreign labour’, arguing that migrants were a ‘pool of unconscious strike-breakers’. What is new is that much of the left seems to have forgotten Lenin’s fierce reaction in 1915 to Hillquit’s call for curbs on migration: ‘We think that one cannot be internationalist and be at the same time in favour of such restrictions … Such socialists are in reality jingoists.’

    Lenin had provided the context in an article on 29 October 1913:

    ‘There can be no doubt that dire poverty alone compels people to abandon their native land, and that the capitalists exploit the immigrant workers in the most shameless manner. But only reactionaries can shut their eyes to the progressive significance of this modern migration of nations … capitalism is drawing the masses of the working people of the whole world … breaking down national barriers and prejudices, uniting workers from all countries.’

    DiEM25 adopts Lenin’s apt analysis: walls that curb the free movement of people and goods are a reactionary response to capitalism. The socialist response is to bring down the walls and allow capitalism to undermine itself, while we organise transnational resistance to capitalist exploitation everywhere. It is not migrants who steal the jobs of native workers but governmental austerity, which is part of the class war waged on behalf of the domestic bourgeoisie.

    This is why we are adamant that xenophobia-lite must never be allowed to contaminate our agenda. As my friend Slavoj Žižek says, a leftist nationalism is a cruel and inane response to National Socialism. So DiEM25’s position on newcomers is that we refuse to differentiate between migrants and refugees. And we call upon Europe to #LetThemIn.
    Comrades from across Europe call us utopian and say the EU cannot be reformed. They may well be right. So for argument’s sake, let us agree that the EU is unreformable. Is progressives’ best response to adopt Lexit (the leftwing campaign for the controlled disintegration of the EU)? Some of my happiest memories are of addressing large audiences in Germany in 2015, soon after Syriza’s surrender to Angela Merkel and the troika (the International Monetary Fund, European Central Bank and European Commission). They were desperate to convey that what had been done to Greece had not been done in their name, the name of the German people. I remember how relieved they were on hearing the DiEM25 call to form one transnational movement, to unify, to fight together, to seize control of EU institutions — European Investment Bank (EIB), ECB etc — and re-deploy them in the interests of all Europeans.

    I still feel the elation of our German comrades on hearing our idea to run Greek candidates in Germany and German candidates in Greece to signify that our movement is transnational, that it intends to take over the neoliberal order’s institutions everywhere and at once, not to wreck them but to make them work for the many, in Brussels, Berlin, Athens, Paris. Everywhere.

    Compare this with how they would have felt had I told them that the EU was unreformable and must be disbanded; that Greeks must fall back to their nation state and try to build socialism there, while Germans did the same. Once we succeeded, our delegations could meet to discuss collaboration between our newly sovereign progressive states. Our German comrades would undoubtedly have felt deflated, and returned home depressed, thinking that they would have to face the German establishment as Germans, not as part of a transnational movement.

    If I am right, it does not matter whether the EU is or isn’t reformable, but it does matter that we put forward concrete proposals on what we would do with EU institutions. Not utopian proposals but complete descriptions of what we would do this week, next month, in the next year, under the existing rules and with the existing instruments — how we would reassign the role of the awful European Stability Mechanism, reorient the ECB’s quantitative easing, and finance immediately, and without new taxes, a green transition and campaign against poverty.

    Why such a detailed agenda? To show voters that there is an alternative, even within the rules designed by the establishment to further the interests of the top 1%. No one expects the EU institutions to adopt our proposals, least of all us. All we want is for voters to see what could be done, instead of what is being done, so that they can see through the establishment without turning to the xenophobic right. This is the only way the left can escape its confines and build abroad progressive coalition.
    DiEM25’s New Deal for Europe aims at this; it shows how the lives of the majority of people can be improved in the short run under existing rules and with the current institutions. And it maps out the transformation of these institutions while charting a constitutional assembly process that will, in the longer run, lead to a democratic European constitution to replace all existing treaties.
    Everyone talks about the importance of the green transition. What they do not say is where the money will come from and who will plan it. Our answer is clear: Europe needs to invest €2 trillion between 2019 and 2023 in green technologies, energy etc. We propose that the EIB issues an additional volume of its bonds, €500bn annually for four years, and that the ECB announces that, if their value drops, it will purchase these on the secondary bond market. With that announcement, and the glut of savings around the world, the ECB will not have to spend a single euro, as the EIB bonds will sell out. A new European Green Transition Agency, modelled on the Marshall Plan’s Organisation for European Economic Cooperation (the OECD’s precursor), will channel those funds to green projects across the continent.

    This proposal requires no new taxes, builds on an existing European bond and is fully legal under existing rules. The same applies to our other proposals, such as our Anti-Poverty Fund: we propose that the billions of profits of the European System of Central Banks (from assets purchased under the ECB’s quantitative easing or from the Target2 payment system) be used to provide every European under the poverty line with food, shelter and energy security.

    Another example is our plan to restructure the eurozone’s public debt: the ECB mediates between states and money markets to reduce their total debt burden, but without printing money or making Germany pay for, or guarantee, the public debt of the more indebted countries.

    As these demonstrate, our New Deal combines technically competent plans, implementable under the EU’s existing framework, with a radical departure from austerity and the troika’s bailout logic. And it goes further by tabling new institutions that prepare for a post-capitalist European future.

    A plan for post-capitalism proposes to partly socialise capital and the returns from automation: big business corporations’ right to operate in the EU will be conditional on transferring a percentage of their shares to a new European Equity Fund. The dividends from these will then fund a Universal Basic Dividend (UBD) to be paid to each European citizen independently of other welfare payments or unemployment insurance.

    Our proposals for reforming the euro are another radical change. Before getting bogged down in changing the charter of the ECB, we plan to create a public digital-payments platform in every eurozone country. Using their national tax office’s existing digital platform, taxpayers would have the opportunity to purchase digital tax credits, which they can use to pay one another or to pay future taxes at a substantial discount. These credits would be denominated in euros but transferable only between taxpayers within a single country, so would be impervious to sudden capital flight.

    Governments would be able to create a limited number of these fiscal euros, to be given to citizens in need or used for the funding of public projects; fiscal euros would allow stressed governments to stimulate demand, lessen the tax burden, and ultimately reduce the crushing power of the ECB and costs of exiting the euro (or of the euro’s disintegration). In the long term, public digital-payment platforms would form a managed system of country-specific euros that work like an International Clearing Union, a modern version of John Maynard Keynes’s 1944 vision for the Bretton Woods system, which sadly failed to materialise.


    Our New Deal for Europe is a comprehensive plan for smartly re-deploying existing institutions in the interests of the majority, planning for a radical, post-capitalist green future, and preparing to pick up the pieces if the EU collapses.
    Well-meaning leftwing friends ask, ‘Why doesn’t DiEM25 join up with Jean-Luc Mélenchon’s La France Insoumise or Sahra Wagenknecht and Oskar Lafontaine’s Aufstehen movement in Germany? How can the left make a difference if you fail to unite?’ The reason is simple: our duty is to create unity on a foundation of radical, rational and internationalist humanism. This means a common agenda for all Europeans and a radical policy of an Open Europe that recognises borders as scars on the planet and newcomers as welcome. Nothing less will do.

    Vitiate Man.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

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