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Thread: Future of the European Union

  1. #31
    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
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    Default Re: Future of the European Union

    I somehow doubt the desire to "squeeze the pips" of anyone who dares to leave is a one shared uniformly across the union, particularly not in the areas who still retain living memory of being in the previous intertantional group that was dangerous to leave.
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  2. #32
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Future of the European Union

    Quote Originally Posted by Greyblades View Post
    I somehow doubt the desire to "squeeze the pips" of anyone who dares to leave is a one shared uniformly across the union, particularly not in the areas who still retain living memory of being in the previous intertantional group that was dangerous to leave.
    See Malta's demand to make it clear that we'll be worse off outside than inside. And Malta has been traditionally pro-UK. See also our attitude to Poles, and the Polish government's disapproval of said attitude. That's another traditionally pro-UK country. Ironically, the accession of eastern Europe was the UK's price during Thatcher's negotiations in return for allowing the single currency to go ahead. And now the influx of eastern Europeans due to the single market (another British idea) is the principal reason why people voted Leave.

  3. #33
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Future of the European Union

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    See Malta's demand to make it clear that we'll be worse off outside than inside. And Malta has been traditionally pro-UK. See also our attitude to Poles, and the Polish government's disapproval of said attitude. That's another traditionally pro-UK country. Ironically, the accession of eastern Europe was the UK's price during Thatcher's negotiations in return for allowing the single currency to go ahead. And now the influx of eastern Europeans due to the single market (another British idea) is the principal reason why people voted Leave.
    The Poles are not so pro-EU now that the EU is meddling with their democracy, eastern Europe has seen it all before

  4. #34
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Future of the European Union

    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

  5. #35
    Ja mata, TosaInu Forum Administrator edyzmedieval's Avatar
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    Default Re: Future of the European Union

    Can't see the FT article - but the title is curious. Isolation of Macron?
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  6. #36
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Future of the European Union

    Quote Originally Posted by edyzmedieval View Post
    Can't see the FT article - but the title is curious. Isolation of Macron?
    Scientists have isolated the Macron particle. It's a huge development in the realm of Quantum Theory.

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  7. #37
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Future of the European Union

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    Scientists have isolated the Macron particle. It's a huge development in the realm of Quantum Theory.
    https://www.google.com/search?q=http...ient=firefox-b

    no takers on my comment on the previous page?
    Last edited by Furunculus; 05-04-2018 at 07:30.
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  8. #38
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Future of the European Union

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    https://www.google.com/search?q=http...ient=firefox-b

    no takers on my comment on the previous page?
    It is behind a paywall. But everybody knows what Macron wants anyway, more money for Franceś agricultural sector (where it is hardly used for and who wants to take a bite out of polluted food anyway) and Germany and the Netherlands must pay it
    Last edited by Fragony; 05-04-2018 at 08:44.

  9. #39
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Future of the European Union

    strange, works for me when i open it from a google search string.

    an excerpt from the ft article on macron:

    "...The British were very appreciative of French support in the recent confrontation with Russia. But ad hoc moments of strategic co-operation between Britain and France, against the background of Brexit, are not a basis for Mr Macron to be the “leader” of a new western alliance.

    France’s other possibilities do not look any more promising. Mr Macron is unwilling to position himself as the leader of a southern European faction, lest this stoke German suspicions of French fiscal laxity. Italy, dominated by the populists of the Five Star movement and the League, is anyway not a natural partner for France. The Dutch, meanwhile, are moulding a new, informal “ Hanseatic League ” of northern European countries that is even more suspicious of Mr Macron’s proposed eurozone reforms than the Germans.

    Central Europe looks even worse. The French president has led the way in condemning “authoritarian democracy”, an unmistakable reference to the current governments of Hungary and Poland. His frankness is welcome and bold. But it is not winning many friends in central European chancelleries.

    The one part of the EU where Mr Macron gets full-throated support is Brussels. In the corridors of the European Commission, the French president is regarded as a hero. But elsewhere in Brussels there are complications. The fact that Mr Macron leads a new party, La République en Marche, means that his supporters are not part of the established power structures in the European Parliament — which is a problem when it comes to shaping legislation and parcelling out the top jobs..."
    Last edited by Furunculus; 05-04-2018 at 13:03.
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  10. #40
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Future of the European Union

    Brexit pays of ;) (sorry Pan I had to)
    Last edited by Fragony; 05-04-2018 at 10:07.

  11. #41
    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Future of the European Union

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    strange, works for me when i open it from a google search string.
    Sorry, unable to read it. Looked like it was potentially interesting though.
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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Future of the European Union

    text ^ above ^
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  13. #43
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Future of the European Union

    If one were to view Yes Prime Minister as Government policy (which is is not - although apparently closer than was comfortable for the politicians / civil service of the day) the UK got into the Europe "thing" to make a mess of it. And now we have managed to bring in loads of Eastern Europeans our job is done - it is again an unwieldy mess with different partners having different visions of what they want (and several countries positivity is directly related to the amount of money they get and the interference they receive)...

    If the EU splits to North / South (broadly) I would be wishful of a "Nordic League" that the Tribes of Germanic Heritage (a meaningless grouping to be sure) could be a part of. The Scottish wouldn't be welcome of course. Well, perhaps right at the top...

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  14. #44
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Future of the European Union

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    If one were to view Yes Prime Minister as Government policy (which is is not - although apparently closer than was comfortable for the politicians / civil service of the day) the UK got into the Europe "thing" to make a mess of it. And now we have managed to bring in loads of Eastern Europeans our job is done - it is again an unwieldy mess with different partners having different visions of what they want (and several countries positivity is directly related to the amount of money they get and the interference they receive)...

    If the EU splits to North / South (broadly) I would be wishful of a "Nordic League" that the Tribes of Germanic Heritage (a meaningless grouping to be sure) could be a part of. The Scottish wouldn't be welcome of course. Well, perhaps right at the top...

    The Blair administration used to view Yes Minister as an accurate documentary portraying what government was really like. Which bemused one of his ministers, who was one of the main insider sources for said programme. Yes Minister is a comedy.

  15. #45
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, Cub Shoot 2 Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Treasure Diver Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Slack Man Champion, Japanese Baseball Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Super Mario Mushroom Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Fish Kill Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, KF 9000 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Future of the European Union

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    The Blair administration used to view Yes Minister as an accurate documentary portraying what government was really like. Which bemused one of his ministers, who was one of the main insider sources for said programme. Yes Minister is a comedy.
    Life is comedy.
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  16. #46
    Ni dieu ni maître! Senior Member a completely inoffensive name's Avatar
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    Default Re: Future of the European Union

    Brexit supporters have too much pride.

    A divided Europe is weaker than a unified Europe. Sure, I can wave the Californian Flag and circle jerk about the 4 months of Californian independence before someone saw a Union soldier and said "oh yeah, we're totally American's"... but the reality is that California, the world's now fifth largest economy (suck it UK) is better off being tied to Alabama, Colorado, and 47 other states that have completely different ideologies and economies.
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  17. #47
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Future of the European Union

    Proud of what, the reality is that it's dumpplace for politicians who screwed up nationally, it is nothing but a VERY expensive overhead

  18. #48
    Ni dieu ni maître! Senior Member a completely inoffensive name's Avatar
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    Default Re: Future of the European Union

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    Proud of what, the reality is that it's dumpplace for politicians who screwed up nationally, it is nothing but a VERY expensive overhead
    Instead of focusing your skepticism on isolationism and nationalism, instead channel it into a means of progress through reform.
    A unified army WHEN we get better representation through x,y,z reforms.
    A strong Federal government WHEN we get better accountability through x,y,z reforms.

    Why is there this disconnect that in politics we are so eager to say "fuck it, I'm out" when in life, love, and family we innately understand that communication and changes are necessary in order to achieve goals and desires.
    In all these papers we see a love of honest work, an aversion to shams, a caution in the enunciation of conclusions, a distrust of rash generalizations and speculations based on uncertain premises. He was never anxious to add one more guess on doubtful matters in the hope of hitting the truth, or what might pass as such for a time, but was always ready to take infinite pains in the most careful testing of every theory. With these qualities was united a modesty which forbade the pushing of his own claims and desired no reputation except the unsought tribute of competent judges.

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  19. #49
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Future of the European Union

    Quote Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name View Post
    Instead of focusing your skepticism on isolationism and nationalism, instead channel it into a means of progress through reform.
    A unified army WHEN we get better representation through x,y,z reforms.
    A strong Federal government WHEN we get better accountability through x,y,z reforms.

    Why is there this disconnect that in politics we are so eager to say "fuck it, I'm out" when in life, love, and family we innately understand that communication and changes are necessary in order to achieve goals and desires.
    It wouldn't be quite so hypocritical if Frag were saying, "I'm out." He's saying, "They're out", opting to live within the EU whilst arguing that all the hardships of Brexit will be worth it.

  20. #50
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Future of the European Union

    Quote Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name View Post
    Instead of focusing your skepticism on isolationism and nationalism, instead channel it into a means of progress through reform.
    A unified army WHEN we get better representation through x,y,z reforms.
    A strong Federal government WHEN we get better accountability through x,y,z reforms.

    Why is there this disconnect that in politics we are so eager to say "fuck it, I'm out" when in life, love, and family we innately understand that communication and changes are necessary in order to achieve goals and desires.
    A unified army are you kidding me, do you think that armies stationed will be from their own state. They know exactly what they are doing
    Last edited by Fragony; 05-07-2018 at 08:22.

  21. #51
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Future of the European Union

    Quote Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name View Post
    Brexit supporters have too much pride.

    A divided Europe is weaker than a unified Europe. Sure, I can wave the Californian Flag and circle jerk about the 4 months of Californian independence before someone saw a Union soldier and said "oh yeah, we're totally American's"... but the reality is that California, the world's now fifth largest economy (suck it UK) is better off being tied to Alabama, Colorado, and 47 other states that have completely different ideologies and economies.
    fine, well then, let's see how many Remainer's are comfortable with the idea of Britain being a the 51st state of america. with [all] that entails...

    Quote Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name View Post
    Instead of focusing your skepticism on isolationism and nationalism, instead channel it into a means of progress through reform.
    A unified army WHEN we get better representation through x,y,z reforms.
    A strong Federal government WHEN we get better accountability through x,y,z reforms.

    Why is there this disconnect that in politics we are so eager to say "fuck it, I'm out" when in life, love, and family we innately understand that communication and changes are necessary in order to achieve goals and desires.
    How about; we don't assent to common governance. Stop.
    Last edited by Furunculus; 05-07-2018 at 08:34.
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  22. #52
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, Cub Shoot 2 Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Treasure Diver Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Slack Man Champion, Japanese Baseball Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Super Mario Mushroom Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Fish Kill Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, KF 9000 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Future of the European Union

    Quote Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name View Post
    Instead of focusing your skepticism on isolationism and nationalism, instead channel it into a means of progress through reform.
    A unified army WHEN we get better representation through x,y,z reforms.
    A strong Federal government WHEN we get better accountability through x,y,z reforms.

    Why is there this disconnect that in politics we are so eager to say "fuck it, I'm out" when in life, love, and family we innately understand that communication and changes are necessary in order to achieve goals and desires.
    ACIN makes a good point, Frags. After all, you would be hard pressed to find a great number of opponents of the EEC. Economic coordination was a boon to Europe on any number of levels. ACIN suggests that, rather than throwing out the baby with the bathwater, you and others of like mind call the EU politicos to task and dial back those aspects of integration that are too intrusive without discarding those that add value.

    Not sure of the practical difficulties in that approach, but ACIN is making a generally valuable point.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

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  23. #53
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Future of the European Union

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    ACIN makes a good point, Frags. After all, you would be hard pressed to find a great number of opponents of the EEC. Economic coordination was a boon to Europe on any number of levels. ACIN suggests that, rather than throwing out the baby with the bathwater, you and others of like mind call the EU politicos to task and dial back those aspects of integration that are too intrusive without discarding those that add value.

    Not sure of the practical difficulties in that approach, but ACIN is making a generally valuable point.
    But Frag isn't throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Not his baby, anyway. Someone else's baby is being dumped in the drains along with the bathwater, but that's an acceptable sacrifice as it's all for the greater good. In the future, when that baby's parents realise what they've done and realise they'll have no more babies, they'll still say, it's all been worth it, as Frag and his family has been telling them all along.

  24. #54
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, Cub Shoot 2 Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Treasure Diver Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Slack Man Champion, Japanese Baseball Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Super Mario Mushroom Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Fish Kill Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, KF 9000 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Future of the European Union

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    But Frag isn't throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Not his baby, anyway. Someone else's baby is being dumped in the drains along with the bathwater, but that's an acceptable sacrifice as it's all for the greater good. In the future, when that baby's parents realise what they've done and realise they'll have no more babies, they'll still say, it's all been worth it, as Frag and his family has been telling them all along.
    Well, it is true that Frags has no "skin in the game" so to speak. Still, I don't think he's alone in decrying EU pols or noting that the entire institution is far from flawless.

    You have consistently hammered Frags for this, but to be fair, there are a number of folks making commentary here -- myself included -- who do not have a direct stake in the Brexit process?/roller-coaster?/fiasco? and yet are commenting here.

    The "only a person who was part of it can know the truth" bit was part of Faurisson's assertions that the Holocaust was not provable to have occurred. You're quite aware of this being an intellectual "cheat" since people can and do learn of something without first hand experience. So why quite so hard on Frags on that aspect of his argument?
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

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  25. #55
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Future of the European Union

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    Well, it is true that Frags has no "skin in the game" so to speak. Still, I don't think he's alone in decrying EU pols or noting that the entire institution is far from flawless.
    As if the national governments that created this institution were actually better. Why replace a flawed institution with a terrible one?
    The EU is a good example of what can happen if you do something half-arsed, with the problem that not doing it at all is still worse.

    In a world where everything needs to grow not to be outpaced, you cannot just expect the Netherlands to grow to 100 million inhabitants in order to not become insignificant. Instead they have to unite with neighbors to keep up. The union they have now is only half-baked however, so on the one hand they perceive it as not important enough to vote in its elections or to pressure for reform, on the other hand it seems important enough to complain about how it oppresses everyone.

    It's basically a just a scapegoat for people who eat at McDonald's, buy groceries at ALDI, furniture at IKEA, Pizza at the Italian place, decorate their homes with African art, buy only German/Japanese cars, use US-invented, China-made computer, wear jeans from Turkey and T-Shirts from Bangladesh and hate globalism for ruining their lives while they oppose any laws that could reign in the free market and the rights of corporations to do whatever they want.


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  26. #56
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Future of the European Union

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    Well, it is true that Frags has no "skin in the game" so to speak. Still, I don't think he's alone in decrying EU pols or noting that the entire institution is far from flawless.

    You have consistently hammered Frags for this, but to be fair, there are a number of folks making commentary here -- myself included -- who do not have a direct stake in the Brexit process?/roller-coaster?/fiasco? and yet are commenting here.

    The "only a person who was part of it can know the truth" bit was part of Faurisson's assertions that the Holocaust was not provable to have occurred. You're quite aware of this being an intellectual "cheat" since people can and do learn of something without first hand experience. So why quite so hard on Frags on that aspect of his argument?
    There's a difference between analysing a situation using evidence, which anyone can do, and making value judgements, which Frag is doing. Alone of the non-Brits, Frag is saying that the Brits should be making these sacrifices because it'll all be worth it. I feel that that kind of judgement should be left to those who have to face the consequences. Like I've said before, the neolibs of the 90s made the same arguments for Yeltsin's Russia, saying that the pain will be worth it, whilst not having to face any of that pain themselves. I despised the neolibs then, and I despise non-British Brexiteers now.

  27. #57
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Do I merit your hatred too?
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  28. #58

    Default Re: Future of the European Union

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    How about; we don't assent to common governance. Stop.
    I'm still not sure why the clear alternative to "common governance" isn't intensifying deterritorialization of governance.

    Or is it another layer of my misunderstanding of your position and

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    What EU will we get?
    My thoughts from a few years back - not significantly changed with the arrival of brexit/macron/etc.

    Does Brexit maximise regional harmony (read: the EU)?

    [...]

    What EU do I want?
    I want an EU that does not force the little nations to knuckle under the 'consensus' thrashed out by the bigger boys.
    Britain was big enough and ugly enough to carve out the opt-outs it needed, but that is not true of many of the smaller nations.
    For this reason i would have been very happy with a remain vote if Belgium had not demanded that exemption to ever closer union must apply only to britain. A more callous and selfish act I have rarely seen!
    Since this was the result, i'd be more than happy if we ended up back in EFTA, with the intention of creating a power block to push back against ever closer union.
    To be clear, my aim is not to obstruct European nations from going where they want to go, but to prevent the EU from steamrolling nations that don't wish to go with them.
    is actually a dialectical argument that considers instigating a crisis in the system as part of the path to a resolution (like Slavoj Zizek on global capitalism and the Trump election)?


    Social engineering is always a gamble.
    Vitiate Man.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

  29. #59
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Future of the European Union

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    Do I merit your hatred too?
    Are you going to be living in the UK post-Brexit? Farage's hurried registration of his family with German passports merits my contempt.

  30. #60
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Future of the European Union

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    There's a difference between analysing a situation using evidence, which anyone can do, and making value judgements, which Frag is doing. Alone of the non-Brits, Frag is saying that the Brits should be making these sacrifices because it'll all be worth it. I feel that that kind of judgement should be left to those who have to face the consequences. Like I've said before, the neolibs of the 90s made the same arguments for Yeltsin's Russia, saying that the pain will be worth it, whilst not having to face any of that pain themselves. I despised the neolibs then, and I despise non-British Brexiteers now.
    Oh stop falling in love with me it makes me blush

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