Re: A Christian Looks at Islam
Gilrandir
This will be my last post on this subject for a few reasons.
1] people say i have been to active lately on the forum so i want to take the time as it is free to finish reading some books on my next subject i will be posting.
2] soccer. Soccer season in vermont has hit high gear and my two boys are very busy at it. and that means so am i. love it.
3] This thread is on Islam witch you have shown you do not have basic knowledge of, yet i am not sure if any of your post are relevant to islam.
Originally Posted by Gilrandir
An eye-opener for you: ANY love is unconditional. When one starts saying "I will love you if you..." it stops being love and becomes blackmailing.
You sound like you are NOT one of the humans who try to interpret the Bible. Another eye-opener: ALL who read the Bible try to interpret it. I don't see why my interpretation is worse or less correct than yours. After all, the only one who can support or refute my claims is God himself (or is it herself? when you decide which it is, let me know). Until he does it I will form my own judgement using his gift - the brain.
So you wish to turn Bible into a code of laws? You would rejoice to see someone stoned for adultery and animal sacrifices? Way to go.
No way. It is YOU who wish to talk about the perfectness of Bible. I put in my spoke only when I see it fail. ANd I can't be the first. The first was Adam, if you remember.
I have twice quoted the same verse which promises to punish the offspring of a perpetrator. Is Deuteronomy not a part of Bible any more? And it is you who choose to drag in Alice Cooper and other guys to prove your point.
Yes, but Deut. 5:9 says about "visiting the iniquity of fathers upon children down to the fourth generation".
I read this in the following way: if you sinned your offspring shall not be killed (24:16), yet they will somehow suffer (5:9). That's what I call God's mercy (and justice) - not killing but undermining health and making life a wreck.
Wait, one more word from God:
Leviticus
27 “But if in spite of this you will not listen to me, but walk contrary to me, 28 then I will walk contrary to you in fury, and I myself will discipline you sevenfold for your sins. 29 You shall eat the flesh of your sons, and you shall eat the flesh of your daughters.
So it means you will eat them alive? Or you will kill them and cook them and eat them? Either way, children suffer for their fathers' sins. Mercy of God is boundless.
This is what YOU claim. Now let's see what God said:
Deuteronomy 32:16 They made Him jealous with strange gods;
Deuteronomy 5:9
'You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, and on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me.
Any word about moral/immoral behavior? Or is praying to another God immoral by default?
What a terrible thing - human sacrifices! Animal sacrifices is what God loves:
Leviticus
3 When the high priest sins, he makes everyone else guilty too. And so, he must sacrifice a young bull that has nothing wrong with it. 4 The priest will lead the bull to the entrance of the sacred tent, lay his hand on its head, and kill it there. 5 He will take a bowl of the blood inside the tent, 6 dip a finger in the blood, and sprinkle some of it seven times toward the sacred chest behind the curtain.
It is not I who claims it. It is what I read in Bible.
No. As Frodo put it: 'Go not to the Elves for counsel, for they will say both no and yes.'
The same with Bible. Now it will give you tooth for tooth advice and then will speak about the other cheek. So the best way is to abide by universal moral principles, no matter what Bible (or any other holy book) says.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_...1099)#Massacre
Atrocities committed against the inhabitants of cities taken by storm after a siege were normal in ancient and medieval warfare. The Crusaders had already done so at Antioch, and Fatimids had done so themselves at Taormina, at Rometta, and at Tyre. However, the massacre of the inhabitants of Jerusalem may have exceeded even these standards.[13][14][15] Historian Michael Hull has suggested this was a matter of deliberate policy rather than simple bloodlust, to remove the “contamination of pagan superstition” (quoting Fulcher of Chartres) and to reform Jerusalem as a strictly Latin Christian city.[16]
Muslims
Many Muslims sought shelter in the Al-Aqsa Mosque, the Dome of the Rock, and the Temple Mount area generally. According to the Gesta Francorum, speaking only of the Temple Mount area, "...[our men] were killing and slaying even to the Temple of Solomon, where the slaughter was so great that our men waded in blood up to their ankles..." According to Raymond of Aguilers, also writing solely of the Temple Mount area, " in the Temple and porch of Solomon men rode in blood up to their knees and bridle reins." Writing about the Temple Mount area alone Fulcher of Chartres, who was not an eyewitness to the Jerusalem siege because he had stayed with Baldwin in Edessa at the time, says: "In this temple 10,000 were killed. Indeed, if you had been there you would have seen our feet coloured to our ankles with the blood of the slain. But what more shall I relate? None of them were left alive; neither women nor children were spared."[17]
Jews
Jews had fought side-by-side with Muslim soldiers to defend the city, and as the Crusaders breached the outer walls, the Jews of the city retreated to their synagogue to "prepare for death".[26] According to the Muslim chronicle of Ibn al-Qalanisi, "The Jews assembled in their synagogue, and the Franks burned it over their heads."[27]
Are these
And do you thank God for these things? My sincerest and abiding admiration.
So you would like to see sins made into crimes?
What I wanted to show by the example is that people who are supposed to be the holiest ones in Orthodox world openly break the laws and disobey authorities. And one more thing: God seems unable to get his immediate subordinates/employees to behave civilly.
Evidently, the said priest read the book but doesn't very much believe what it preaches. Or he follows Jesus in matters of transportation means?
You have left out a whole bunch of events between Adam and the Gospel. Yet I thank you. I wouldn't like you to post the whole of what lies between.
This response will be fast to save time.
first response. Agreed fully, just my point. Allah's love is conditional.
Relativism [inteprit how i like] does me no good neither would it on the federal tax code. I suggest you send in your taxes and say you interpreted it as they had to pay you instead of you them, see how that goes. We are only suppose to interprit and relativism when it comes to things liberals dont like, such as the bible. The bible can clarify any issue but man often chooses to ignore it or only listen to what they like.
I cant help but think you are not hearing and just want to argue my friend. I said try your relativistic, interpret how i want stance with the federal tax code. Than see where liberalism gets you.
Gods bible and your are very different. Your bible as i pointed out is man made numbers verses and chapters. Mine is the written text reveled from god. that is why you see contradictions and make one verse fight another instead of it being read in its entirely to allow it to say more on a subject than your one man made bible verse/number/ human commentary. That is why you see Deut. 5:9 and Deut. 24:16 as contradictory rather than allow the bible to clarify and give you its meaning. Thus your conclusion reached is
"That's what I call God's mercy (and justice) - not killing but undermining health and making life a wreck."
unbiblical out of context and not surprising. But as I said gods bible is his reveled word in its entirely from gen 1.1 to the end of revelations. Therefore i read it as a whole and allow more than your man made verse size bible. and as i pointed out to you, gods word tells us that god will punish those in the promise land who continue in the sins of the fathers, and that none will be punished for the sins of their fathers. But you have shown you have no interest in gods bible. That is why i have said your words and beliefs flow from a sinful heart that seeks to make an idol [god in your image, how you want to "interpret" it] so you can make a contradictory or evil god that you can reject easily. You can than fill your hearts desire as you wish.
Leviticus passage- Once more we have two bibles. I do not care to defend your idol of a man made numbering passage min out of context bible. but i do care for gods reveled word in its entirety. so we look to 2 kings 6 25-29.
There was a great famine in the city; the siege lasted so long that a donkey’s head sold for eighty shekels[a] of silver, and a quarter of a cab[b] of seed pods[c] for five shekels.[d]
26 As the king of Israel was passing by on the wall, a woman cried to him, “Help me, my lord the king!”
27 The king replied, “If the Lord does not help you, where can I get help for you? From the threshing floor? From the winepress?” 28 Then he asked her, “What’s the matter?”
She answered, “This woman said to me, ‘Give up your son so we may eat him today, and tomorrow we’ll eat my son.’ 29 So we cooked my son and ate him. The next day I said to her, ‘Give up your son so we may eat him,’ but she had hidden him.”
This is a horrible account of how bad it got for Israel. as god said if they follow in the sins of their fathers [worshiping Canaanite gods child sacrifice etc] he would no longer continue protecting them. Anyone who has read the bible or has minimal knowledge would know the ot cycle that is often repeated. I wish not to tell you because you have no interest in gods word but your man made idol. you can keep it, i would reject it as well.
Once more we have two bibles, your consist of Deuteronomy 32:16 Deuteronomy 5:9 and a false conclusion. Mine is god reveled word. You say their is no mention of moral behavior connected with this false worship just a jealous god. thus you have created your idol to reject as an evil jealous god based on selected verses used to create this idol. Mine is gods entire word reveled to man in its context and in full. If you wish to know about what god has to say on the subject see here
Did God Command Genocide During the Conquest of Canaan?
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...uest-of-Canaan
of course we both know you have no interest at all.
Yes god sees human sacrifice as bad, you seem surprised. your idol not have that verse? but once more two bibles. you say god loves animal sacrifice because your bible is selected verses you like to make a idol out of. Mine is gods whole word starting in genesis. So i also see the bible as presenting the sacrifice as atonement and foreshadowing of Jesus death
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
and i know death is the enemy of god.
The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
1 Corinthians 15 . 26
I also read the bible in whole where it says
But whoever sacrifices a bull is like one who kills a man, and whoever offers a lamb, like one who breaks a dog's neck; whoever makes a grain offering is like one who presents pig's blood, and whoever burns memorial incense, like one who worships an idol. They have chosen their own ways, and their souls delight in their abominations;
Isiah 66.3
For I desire mercy, not sacrifice,
and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings
hosea 6.6
I will praise God’s name in song
and glorify him with thanksgiving.
31 This will please the LORD more than an ox,
more than a bull with its horns and hooves
psalm 69 30-31
“To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices to Me?”
Says the Lord.
“I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams
And the fat of fed cattle.
I do not delight in the blood of bulls,
Or of lambs or goats.
Bring no more futile sacrifices;
Incense is an abomination to Me.
The New Moons, the Sabbaths, and the calling of assemblies—
I cannot endure iniquity and the sacred meeting.
Your New Moons and your appointed feasts
My soul hates;
They are a trouble to Me,
I am weary of bearing them.
Isiah 1.11,13,14
Sacrifice and offering you did not desire—
but my ears you have opened[c]—
burnt offerings and sin offerings[d] you did not require.
7 Then I said, “Here I am, I have come—
it is written about me in the scroll.[e]
8 I desire to do your will, my God;
your law is within my heart.
Psalm 40 6-8
So Samuel said:
“Has the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices,
As in obeying the voice of the Lord?
Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice,
And to heed than the fat of rams.
1 Samuel 15.22
The Lord detests the sacrifice of the wicked,
but the prayer of the upright pleases him
proverbs 15.8
once more your bible is not gods word, lets not mistake that you have shown your bible an idol over and over. where you create a "yes and no" is from your idol as shown. In fact your claim of tooth for tooth and turn the other cheek is a perfect example of an idol since you claim they contradict. the whole bible solves that for you. I have done so on another thread [in the history section] but dont want to show all your idols false on a thread not dedicated to contradictions. i would rather than.
Right. That is why i did the thread to help people who use wiki and have no critical thinking skills. T ON THE CRUSADE THREAD PLEASE> SORRY for caps>
thank god for lies in liberal government schools? no thanks. You do not know me sir.
if the title does not give it away i am not sure what would, please read it if still needed.
Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to God
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...edience-to-God
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