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    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is the Center More Fascist Than Fascists?

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    I think things were worse under Tony Blair since his massive majority of brand new MPs gave him almost unchecked powers. The opposition then was also useless in the face of the new PR approach. The two current ones are extremely underwhelming and basically score zero but Tony managed to get a significant negative score.

    We barely have a representative democracy, given in almost every single constituency a minority of people who voted for the incumbent (ignoring the low voter turnout) which is a feature of first past the post system. Almost any system of Proportional representation improves this - some more than others.

    We have a large technocracy, I'm not sure I'd describe it as strong either in terms of efficiency or ability to stand up to the government - the data privacy laws is a classic example where the Courts strike down the law as written... but the Government appeals and appeals and then finally tweaks the language and passes another law that does effectively the same thing. Technically all is OK... is this "working"? Not really.

    In theory, improving transparency would help... but systems have a way or rearranging in ways that were not expected - FOI laws meant that civil servants stopped writing things down so they would not be able to be shared so trying to make things more open in fact didn't and also rather dangerously stopped there being as good notes being taken.

    Perhaps anonymised voting in the Commons with the results released at the start of the re-election campaign would help in a small way.

    The current batch manage to combine reaching for tyrannical power with utter incompetence, with the two sides collaborating to bring about the worst of British policy. Back in the days of Blair, there was certainly a competent government, and the opposition, weak though it was due to numbers, was competent too. And if you think that landslides are inherently bad; did you complain when Thatcher had hers? Many of the most critical problems of today, such as lack of housing and subsequently check on social mobility, can be traced back to her governments. And they've been inculcated in the British electorate as positives of their society, rather than the cause of their problems.

    Edit: And no, our technocracy isn't strong enough. The Commons routinely threatens the Lords with dissolution, and there are regular calls for making the Lords democratic. Why the hell you'd want two democratic Houses when the electorate is the same beats me though.
    Last edited by Pannonian; 05-30-2018 at 12:14.

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    Default Re: Is the Center More Fascist Than Fascists?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    Edit: And no, our technocracy isn't strong enough. The Commons routinely threatens the Lords with dissolution, and there are regular calls for making the Lords democratic. Why the hell you'd want two democratic Houses when the electorate is the same beats me though.
    This sums up my reasons for preferring the old "states pick them" approach to Senators as opposed to direct election. The electorate is the same and already represented. Nicely phrased Pannonian.


    As to the Lords as a body of legislature, dissolution may be valid (they are already represented by their MPs and if the Lord's and it can be argued that such a class-centric division commons/lords is no longer relevant) but making it elected would be patently silly. The Earl of Wiltingflowershire standing aginst the Duchess of Eastwestnorthumberland to see who will cast the irrelevant vote for the East Country hemifarthing of the Lords?
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    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is the Center More Fascist Than Fascists?

    The Senate is OK, although 2 per state seems rather disproportionate. Perhaps the approach would be to mean that the second chamber is appointed in some way by Local Government - a certain number by region? Perhaps that might also mean people have more interest in what the local government is.

    Before dissolving the Lords, who seem to do a better job than one realistically would expect given how they've come about, is what is to replace it? Given they can be steam rolled by the Commons perhaps replacing with more specific select committees of experts on the subject matter might work since this would provide the technocratic oversight that they are best at.

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    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is the Center More Fascist Than Fascists?

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    The Senate is OK, although 2 per state seems rather disproportionate. Perhaps the approach would be to mean that the second chamber is appointed in some way by Local Government - a certain number by region? Perhaps that might also mean people have more interest in what the local government is.

    Before dissolving the Lords, who seem to do a better job than one realistically would expect given how they've come about, is what is to replace it? Given they can be steam rolled by the Commons perhaps replacing with more specific select committees of experts on the subject matter might work since this would provide the technocratic oversight that they are best at.

    I'd be ok with that. But would these select committees have less power to revise the Commons' policies than the Lords?

    My ideal:

    The Government in the Commons says, we want to do this. (Democracy)
    The Lords tells the Government, this isn't workable because of this, this and this; come back with something more workable. (Technocracy)
    The Opposition in the Commons tells the Government, you told the voters you'd do this; now go and do it. (Democracy)

    On Brexit: the Government hasn't come up with anything concrete, and the Opposition is doing none of the above. Only the Lords is doing their bit. NB. Parliament isn't just the Commons; it's the Lords as well. Parliamentary sovereignty encompasses all of the above.

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    Default Re: Is the Center More Fascist Than Fascists?

    Quote Originally Posted by spmetla View Post
    The goal of compromise isn't to make everyone happy but find the most suitable solution for the situation.
    So we're agreed; it's one deliberative tool among others, many preferable in the first order.

    I believe that democracy like all things human swings back and forth between representative and direct. The changes of attitudes, means of information distribution, technology, and education all affect it. Imagine if voting were required and those with zero interest were required to put a name down (assuming none of the above was't an option). Modern democracies have many flaws with many possible solutions which is why there will always be people that want reform and some that want radical change to a new form of government.
    One observation is that pointing to the inadequacy of democratic actors, or the valley-hill analogy otherwise, may be a self-fulfilling prophecy. Could training and practice in everyday democracy counteract what today some call the atrophy of the civic mind?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post

    Edit: And no, our technocracy isn't strong enough. The Commons routinely threatens the Lords with dissolution, and there are regular calls for making the Lords democratic. Why the hell you'd want two democratic Houses when the electorate is the same beats me though.
    It really sounds like you, Rory, and I have more closely identified with Keynesianism than anything.

    (So by all accounts Rory should identify with the EU-as-vilified today.)

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    eynesianism, as Mann sees it, is distinct from liberalism, but an offshoot from the liberal tradition. Like liberalism, it sees modern capitalism as the highest form of civilization. If it is not already a utopia, it holds the potential for utopia in its drive for continual productivity improvement. Keynes’s visions of the future include a fifteen-hour workweek (in “Economic Possibilities for Our Grandchildren”) and the “euthanasia of the rentier” (in the General Theory) — not by guillotine but by the very success of capital accumulation. Capital will accumulate to the point where it is no longer scarce, so the wealthy can no longer command a return by monopolizing it. The Keynesian utopia will have the good parts of capitalism — the “efficiency of the decentralization of decisions and of individual responsibility” — without the bad, “its failure to provide for full employment and its arbitrary and inequitable distribution of wealth and incomes.” The period in which people earn income simply from holding wealth is “a transitional phase which will disappear when it has done its work.” The coming of utopia “will be nothing sudden, merely a gradual but prolonged continuance of what we have seen recently in Great Britain, and will need no revolution.”

    But Keynesianism departs from classical liberalism in not seeing liberal society as natural or self-sustaining. If it stays on the rails, it moves towards utopia, but capitalism tends to derail itself. In the General Theory Keynes explores one dimension of this — a tendency for investment to fall below the level needed for full employment — but this is just one instance of a broader theme in Keynes’s work — and in Keynesianism more broadly. The health of capitalism depends upon deliberate political management going well beyond the nightwatchman duties of protecting property. Some of this may be unobtrusive — the central bank’s management of the interest rate — but it may require nothing less than “a somewhat comprehensive socialization of investment.” (Keynes was vague on what he meant by this, and certainly did not mean the seizure of the means of production, but he at the least believed that the amount of investment in a given period should be decided by policymakers.)

    Capitalism needs help staying on the tracks, but it is on tracks: it can’t be driven just anywhere. What it needs in the way of management is not up to the managers; it depends on the structure of the economy itself. It needs not only management but expert management, and that has two big implications.

    First, it breaks with the classical liberal commitment to laissez-faire. The liberal enthusiasm for individual choice was always, as Mann puts it, “modified by a series of ad hoc qualifications,” but Keynesianism goes further, holding that individual freedom in general depends on not making an absolute of it. Politics must curb some liberties to defend Liberty. Free enterprise left to itself tends to generate poverty, inequality, and unemployment. If these get out of hand, there is a real risk that political rebellion will lead to much worse than red tape.

    Second, it is in tension with democracy. Liberal pluralists see the democratic political system as a way of addressing and managing the social conflicts and dissatisfactions that capitalism produces. Interests are channeled into politics, where they are forced into compromise, and problems are sorted out piecemeal. But for Keynes, there is no reason to believe that political representation of interests really would solve the underlying problems. Economic problems are complex, so their solutions will be delicate and call for expert judgment. What makes for a finely-balanced political compromise may have nothing to do with what solving the problem will actually take. The contenders — parties and their constituencies — often badly misunderstand the causes of their woes. Keynes, says Mann, “was definitively not a democrat, because anything approaching popular sovereignty was in his view antithetical to the long-term interests of civilization.”

    He sided explicitly with “the bourgeois and the intelligentsia who, with whatever faults, are the quality in life and surely carry the seeds of all human advancement.” In other words, he was with the bourgeoisie not because of their role as capitalists or rentiers, but as a people properly socialized and cultured. It might be possible in the long run to extend their education and privilege more broadly, but giving the masses what they think they want now would jeopardize that future.

    Clearly, Keynesianism defined this way is not only a departure from classical liberalism, but has also fed back into modern liberalism. The political center today stretches from positions closer to classical liberalism — with a belief in the basic stability and justice of the market — to a more Keynes-inflected technocratic managerialism. Mann locates the roots of the latter in macroeconomic ideas since Keynes, and specifically the retreat from “full employment” to the “natural rate of unemployment”: “barring a fascist or authoritarian arrangement, capitalism must have unemployment. It must be (in Keynes’s words) sufficiently and consistently impoverishing.”


    Another distinct topic to discuss but, if having two largely-identical democratic chambers is not a worthwhile duplication, what could a proper bifurcation of two democratic chambers look like? In the US it's based on geographic designation, so a theoretical system needs a more striking contrast. Or, maybe we shouldn't be hidebound to legislative dualism at all; then what?

    We may recall a thread briefly surveying a recent book that (IIRC), among other proposals, suggested the Senate in the US be reformed as a Board of Governors, with the people of the states democratically electing two governors, in alternation one to preside locally, the other in Washington DC. That wouldn't gain any democracy though, and it still depends upon geographic designations.

    If you just want a technocratic government, define a technocratic class in or out of government and give them a direct vote in some capacity. I don't think you need them seated in a whole chamber unto themselves, or in miniaturized committees.
    Last edited by Montmorency; 05-30-2018 at 14:29.
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    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is the Center More Fascist Than Fascists?

    A centrist is someone who wishes to enforce the machinery of the neo liberal status quo while not caring so much if some "leftisit" proposals get in under their rule.

    Essentially Berry Weiss.
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    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is the Center More Fascist Than Fascists?

    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    A centrist is someone who wishes to enforce the machinery of the neo liberal status quo while not caring so much if some "leftisit" proposals get in under their rule.

    Essentially Berry Weiss.
    Come to the UK and see the newspapers' shtick of keeping track of rising house prices as the bedrock of the UK economy. See if you can work against that.

    For me, house prices is the shibboleth of British politics.

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    Coffee farmer extraordinaire Member spmetla's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is the Center More Fascist Than Fascists?

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    One observation is that pointing to the inadequacy of democratic actors, or the valley-hill analogy otherwise, may be a self-fulfilling prophecy. Could training and practice in everyday democracy counteract what today some call the atrophy of the civic mind?
    I certainly believe more education and some sort of requirement to participate would help but you can't force people to care about things they don't care about. It would require a major cultural shift in which people that are apathetic are not the norm and are shunned, something that is highly unlikely.
    Also, increasing training on how to contribute to society and be a contributing citizen is desirable but it is a tightrope between the government dictating to citizens on how to contribute or not.

    I certainly wish our home economics classes and civics classes in high school had more relevant subjects. I recall being taught the branches of government, how to write a check. Nothing that actually teaches these are the laws, this is how you can find out this or that about the laws. These are your legal rights so if a police officer asks for this they must have something that authorizes it. With the prevalence of guns in US society I think gun safety and responsibility should be taught to all so we see friend X leaving a loaded pistol unlocked in a location known and accessible by his kids that everyone has the education to tell him that is BS and he needs to secure his firearm.

    The byzantine code of laws, tax codes, and regulations which no one understands in itself makes the ability of someone with a full time job and limited interest not able to really be able understand the issues they should be electing politicians on. This is why the big cultural/societal ones are the ones that politicians rally around, average joe can understand cultural changes they don't like, they can understand issues that are counter to their religious beliefs and it's these that are raised as banners for them to rally around or against.

    Right now our society has a bit too much direct democracy (ex:Boaty Mcboatface) and it should devolve a bit more to the indirect representative form so that the technocrats can run things behind the scenes without the election cycle stymieing progress too much. Right now with the debates being fed by social media propaganda and rumors together with demagogue pundits on TV and radio stoking the fires of radicalism on both sides and killing what should be civil discourse it'd be in our interest to roll back some reforms to be less directly democratic.

    Making Senators elected by State Legislatures again would be a good step in that direction. It's not about being against democracy but adjusting what form of it works for the times we live in, fifty years down the line something else will be more suitable and we'll need to adjust for that as well.
    Last edited by spmetla; 05-30-2018 at 19:25.

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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is the Center More Fascist Than Fascists?

    Fascism is pretty straighistforward, Mussolini called it the third way; basicly keeping the status quo intact and feed the poplulation crumbs. Hi Brussel

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    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is the Center More Fascist Than Fascists?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    Fascism is pretty straighistforward, Mussolini called it the third way; basicly keeping the status quo intact and feed the poplulation crumbs. Hi Brussel
    Which MEP was it that ran over your cat? Did you report it to the police?

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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is the Center More Fascist Than Fascists?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    Which MEP was it that ran over your cat? Did you report it to the police?

    My cats are fine thanks for your concern. But by just about any definition the EU is fascist

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    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is the Center More Fascist Than Fascists?

    Sounds like the episode of Yes Prime Minister "Power to the People". The theory is well known and the methods of how it could be implemented are thought out. But those who could drive change don't want to.

    Politicians rarely want any more people interested in politics - there are technically few barriers to entry to the profession so the one they try to have as much of possible is apathy. If that fails, the system of MP candidates elected by the local party helps ensure that it is almost impossible to win, if not stand.

    Bureaucracies are generally created / run by bureaucrats. Who like to have as much power as possible, which is often determined by the size of budget and number of reports. Simple things might not need lots of highly paid managers!

    In the UK, there has only been Universal suffrage for 100 years and for almost all of that time there have been ways to reduce the input of the pollis: did the Civil Service need to speak in Latin up until the 50's 60's? Of course not - but it massively limited the franchise.

    In the UK a few years ago there was a vote on whether we wanted first past the post or single transferable vote. I voted (without much enthusiasm) for STV mainly since I did not really understand what all the fuss was about. Yet Youtube has videos that can impart a convincing argument inside of 5 minutes. This leads me to believe that the poor campaign was mainly since there was the need to have a vote... but no one wanted anything to actually, y'know, change. Rather like every initial vote on the EU has been from every country a resounding "NO!" but then things were altered to ensure that things continued.

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    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is the Center More Fascist Than Fascists?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    My cats are fine thanks for your concern. But by just about any definition the EU is fascist
    Democracy is an outdated concept. China, the US, Russia, Poland, Austria, Hungary, Turkey and plenty of others have all gone fascist and are very happy with it. It's only natural for the EU to do the same instead of missing the trend until others become the ultimate authorities on fascism.


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    Default Re: Is the Center More Fascist Than Fascists?

    Quote Originally Posted by spmetla View Post
    I certainly believe more education and some sort of requirement to participate would help but you can't force people to care about things they don't care about. It would require a major cultural shift in which people that are apathetic are not the norm and are shunned, something that is highly unlikely.
    Also, increasing training on how to contribute to society and be a contributing citizen is desirable but it is a tightrope between the government dictating to citizens on how to contribute or not.

    I certainly wish our home economics classes and civics classes in high school had more relevant subjects. I recall being taught the branches of government, how to write a check. Nothing that actually teaches these are the laws, this is how you can find out this or that about the laws. These are your legal rights so if a police officer asks for this they must have something that authorizes it. With the prevalence of guns in US society I think gun safety and responsibility should be taught to all so we see friend X leaving a loaded pistol unlocked in a location known and accessible by his kids that everyone has the education to tell him that is BS and he needs to secure his firearm.

    The byzantine code of laws, tax codes, and regulations which no one understands in itself makes the ability of someone with a full time job and limited interest not able to really be able understand the issues they should be electing politicians on. This is why the big cultural/societal ones are the ones that politicians rally around, average joe can understand cultural changes they don't like, they can understand issues that are counter to their religious beliefs and it's these that are raised as banners for them to rally around or against.
    It can't simply be about education, of course, but of constructing a system where people simply are responsible for democratic decision-making, primarily impacting their own lives and the lives of their neighbours, on a daily basis.

    It has to be something automatic, not a recommendation or exhortation from on high, not something dependent on continuous direct intervention to function.

    Yes, sounds complicated.


    Let me touch on something I can't recall sources for: people don't like bureaucracy. Low-income people will actually shun community centers and other free government-run establishments if there's any kind of bureaucracy they have to endure to enjoy them. Instead, they will flock to the cheap commercial areas and fast food establishments, making them into ad hoc community centers. This is especially common with McDonalds. I gather, if you walk in any time off-hours, you'll see homeless people, job seekers, retirees, all gathered together.
    Amenities like WiFi and clean premises/bathrooms help (it's sad our community centers don't have always have these).

    People will pay good money to avoid bureaucracy, even if they don't have much of it.

    So, a critical aspect of any reformed society must be the reduction of the front-end bureaucratic load. Services and information must be easy to access, on the road to becoming used by a broad base of society, since if everyone is involved it's harder to justify an argument for abolishing it. Moreover, it's a good in itself because the more time people spend with bureaucracy, the less time they have for other things in their lives.

    Another challenging but essential meta-principle.

    Making Senators elected by State Legislatures again would be a good step in that direction. It's not about being against democracy but adjusting what form of it works for the times we live in, fifty years down the line something else will be more suitable and we'll need to adjust for that as well.
    This is a weakness of reactionism right here: why do you think returning to state legislature delegation will work the way you prefer? It seems smarter to develop bespoke a better approach for our context, and then apply it, rather than rolling back what may or may not be helpful. Arguments for reform should be based just as much on the positive attributes of the target as the negative attributes of the status quo.

    Right now our society has a bit too much direct democracy (ex:Boaty Mcboatface) and it should devolve a bit more to the indirect representative form so that the technocrats can run things behind the scenes without the election cycle stymieing progress too much. Right now with the debates being fed by social media propaganda and rumors together with demagogue pundits on TV and radio stoking the fires of radicalism on both sides and killing what should be civil discourse it'd be in our interest to roll back some reforms to be less directly democratic.
    Both left and right fringes argue that technocrats need to display more humility, and that shutting out the public from debates is part of what has got us into our messes. After all, the measure of the technocrats has not often been whether their ideas are good or work out (except to an extent in the weeds of very technical and 'hidden' disciplines like civil engineering or wildlife conservation), but how convenient they are for the interests of the politicians, the elected officials.

    How about this: the organizing principle for socialism is that people have more control over their communities and everyday lives, so when we start with radical direct democracy we ease in from the lowest levels of neighborhood up, then workplace/enterprise... while making the federal/national more technocratized than it has been, since at this level we also have those issues that are properly trans-national, a category whose contents are always proliferating today...
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