Results 1 to 17 of 17

Thread: What is the use of crusade?

  1. #1

    Default What is the use of crusade?

    I read in a couple of threads that people use crusade to capture land. Is that different from using normal army?

  2. #2
    Member Member DEB8's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Near Bristol England
    Posts
    322

    Default Re: What is the use of crusade?

    I have yet to use one myself, as I prefer to use normal armies to do my "dirty" work, so I can't really comment...

    Armies are built differently though. See the manual for help re this ; and check out the appropriate section in the Beginners Guide for some other info. / insights.

    [ They can be a pain when they attack you though ( usually due to large numbers in the early years ). In later years I find they tend to be small and have mostly crap troops ! ]
    Last edited by DEB8; 10-23-2018 at 20:23.

  3. #3
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Ukraine
    Posts
    3,722

    Default Re: What is the use of crusade?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoKus View Post
    I read in a couple of threads that people use crusade to capture land. Is that different from using normal army?
    A successful crusade adds influence to your king while an unsuccessful one decreases it. Besides, with a normal army you can't march through the lands belonging to other factions to capture a rich far away province. With the crusade you have a good excuse to do it - and if they deny you passage they will be excommed.

    These are purely practical reasons. But otherwise it is just medieval fun. One just can't imagine Middle Ages without crusades.
    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
    The article exists for a reason yes, I did not write it...

  4. #4

    Default Re: What is the use of crusade?

    Don't forget that you don't pay maintenance for a crusading army - while its moving and while its fighting.. you pay maintenance only after you have gained your objective and the crusading army goes back into being normal..

    If you do the Popes bidding - and crusade against the enemies he sets on [be it of other faiths or catholics], you can also gain papal favor - after a point of being a good catholic, papal favor comes with handy 1000 florin gifts every now and then..

    you can crusade against far off enemies that are unlikely to retaliate - such as muslims or the orthodox, however know that you may struggle to maintain your new possessions..

    Or you can wait and crusade against disfavored fellow catholics.. as the crusade army that is generated can boost quickly your standing armies and provide opportunities for expansion against them..

    Another crusading target that pays off, are the pagan lands slightly off the HRE and north of Poland.. this is a very close to home legitimate crusading target that can give you influence and the army that the crusade will generate as it is so near..

    There is also a role playing element in the crusading mechanic - if you include your king in the crusade, he will not be able to be at your core lands that will give you loyalty penalties therein [provinces far from the location of the king get a loyalty penalty, hence it makes sense to keep him at a central location within your lands]..

    You can recreate thus historical situations such as that of King Richard the Lion-heart, who left to crusade in the Holy Land [soldiering was his favorite passtime] leaving his kingdom to political enemies and instability..

    Whatever you do - make sure you try to succeed in the crusade - due to the influence hit. A succesful crusade can galvanise your kingdom by adding to your king's influence, even if you won't be able to hold on to your posession..

    Obviously there are also the special crusading units.. these are quite handy especially in early [crusading knights: templars, st john/hospitallers, teutonic, santiago as well as the order spearmen..] after the crusade.. they are much better than units of that period..
    Last edited by gallum; 01-23-2019 at 16:48. Reason: added material

  5. #5

    Default Re: What is the use of crusade?

    Another tactic you can pull off with a crusade - is to use the crusade as a troop 'hoover' on neighbouring catholic lands.. this can work wonders, especially if you are well located - for example: as the english you can 'suck in' troops from france, italy and possibly hungary.. as the french you can suck from the italians and possibly the hungarians..

    in this way, you can exploit the small garissons once the crusade leaves and attack your weakened neighbour/s..

  6. #6
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Ukraine
    Posts
    3,722

    Default Re: What is the use of crusade?

    Quote Originally Posted by gallum View Post
    You can recreate thus historical situations such as that of King Richard the Lion-heart, who left to crusade in the Holy Land [soldiering was his favorite passtime] leaving his kingdom to political enemies and instability..
    He spent in England half a year (out of his 10 years of reign) and crusading took only a couple of years, so it is not the crusade that is to blame in his absence, but rather Richard's adventurous and bellicose character.
    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
    The article exists for a reason yes, I did not write it...

  7. #7

    Default Re: What is the use of crusade?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    He spent in England half a year (out of his 10 years of reign) and crusading took only a couple of years, so it is not the crusade that is to blame in his absence, but rather Richard's adventurous and bellicose character.
    Exactly, yes.. the crusade was another chapter in a long string of incidents due to his adventurous and bellicose nature..as i mentioned, soldiering was his favorite pastime..

    The crusade bankrupted the english economy, as Richard didn't care for his domain, other than as a means to support his wants..

    I used to live in the uk - and everytime i past from the parlament and Richard's statue that is there, i couldn't help but smile..

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Richard_the_first.jpg 
Views:	34 
Size:	31.5 KB 
ID:	22131

    Member thankful for this post:



  8. #8
    Second-hand chariot salesman Senior Member macsen rufus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Ratae Corieltauvorum
    Posts
    2,445

    Default Re: What is the use of crusade?

    Quote Originally Posted by gallum View Post
    The crusade bankrupted the english economy, as Richard didn't care for his domain, other than as a means to support his wants..
    Hmm, arguably, but more to the point was the massive ransom that had to be paid after he was taken captive on his way home from crusading....
    ANCIENT: TW

    A mod for Medieval:TW (with VI)

    Discussion forum thread

    Ancient TW2: Eastern Empires is under development again

    Featuring: Rise of Persia, Alexander's Conquests, Wars of the Diadochi

  9. #9

    Default Re: What is the use of crusade?

    Quote Originally Posted by macsen rufus View Post
    Hmm, arguably, but more to the point was the massive ransom that had to be paid after he was taken captive on his way home from crusading....
    yeah.. there was that too [it was 2 to 3 times the yearly income of the english throne at the time]..the ransom was raised by Richard's.. mom.. while at the same time his brother, John and king Philip of France counter-offered money to the HREmperor to keep Richard captive longer..
    Last edited by gallum; 01-25-2019 at 16:08.

  10. #10
    Arrogant Ashigaru Moderator Ludens's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    8,976
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default Re: What is the use of crusade?

    Quote Originally Posted by gallum View Post
    yeah.. there was that too [it was 2 to 3 times the yearly income of the english throne at the time]..the ransom was raised by Richard's.. mom.. while at the same time his brother, John and king Philip of France counter-offered money to the HREmperor to keep Richard captive longer..
    And then Richard spent yet another fortune on building a state-of-the-art fortress (or several?) in Normandy; as well as going to war with France again. So the English may have felt rather neglected by at this point.

    Then again, Richard wasn't just king of England. He was lord of the old Angevin empire of England, Normandy and Aquitaine. His continental possessions required more attention than the safe and stable English kingdom.

    Incidentally, Richard's ransom was collected by his mother because she was acting as regent in his absence. And given that she was the redoubtable Eleanor of Aquitaine (Queen of France and England, in turn), whom had led armies and participated (as a non-combatant) in the Second Crusade, this was a savvy choice on Richard's part.

    Member thankful for this post:

    gallum 


  11. #11

    Default Re: What is the use of crusade?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludens View Post
    And then Richard spent yet another fortune on building a state-of-the-art fortress (or several?) in Normandy; as well as going to war with France again. So the English may have felt rather neglected by at this point.
    several as you say [the most important/expensive/impressive one being Chateau Gaillard] as he started the reconquest of Normandy from Philip of France upon his arrival from captivity..

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludens View Post
    Then again, Richard wasn't just king of England. He was lord of the old Angevin empire of England, Normandy and Aquitaine. His continental possessions required more attention than the safe and stable English kingdom.
    yes indeed - he spent his childhood in the duchy of Aquitaine, his continental possessions were more important politically as well as economically - they were also huge, they amounted to half/more than half of France, and also constantly needed defending from the French - not to mention the opportunitites for expansionist wars [against the French].

    His lack of heirs marked the start of the dissolution of the old Angevin empire of England

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludens View Post
    Incidentally, Richard's ransom was collected by his mother because she was acting as regent in his absence. And given that she was the redoubtable Eleanor of Aquitaine (Queen of France and England, in turn), whom had led armies and participated (as a non-combatant) in the Second Crusade, this was a savvy choice on Richard's part.
    As you say Ludens.. she was also a patron of important literary figures of the time and actually outlived most of her children - one of the most powerful, wealthy and formidable characters of the middle ages..
    Last edited by gallum; 01-25-2019 at 23:19. Reason: added info

  12. #12

    Default Re: What is the use of crusade?

    With all this talk on Richard, i got an idea that is actually more suited in the clifton/iron-house_rules thread.. so you can read about it there, however it was this thread with the interesting historical discussion that brought it up..
    Last edited by gallum; 01-27-2019 at 01:23. Reason: added info

  13. #13
    Toh-GAH-koo-reh Member Togakure's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Zen Garden
    Posts
    2,705

    Default Re: What is the use of crusade?

    Hello MoKus and vet folks. I didn't use Crusades a lot when I first played MTW:VI campaigns, but I sure did later on once I figured out how to use them effectively with my play style.

    One way to build up some high-quality Order Infantry (equivalent to Italian Infantry, the best base spears commonly buildable except Rus, iirc) and chapter Knights (which are Chivalric level in capability for the most part) earlier in the game than you would be able to otherwise is via multiple crusades. Those that survive victorious become available afterwards as regular troops for your use anywhere. In an Early Period game, this is especially powerful, provided you can get the whole process going fast enough.

    Rather than rely on chancy Zeal levels and passage through the kingdoms of others which could have unpredictable results and political consequences, I use Crusade armies to vanguard a coordinated attack with my regular armies. I plan for this early, establishing a solid economic base asap (through improvements and local conquest initially, then sea power and TRADE in most games). Then I devote two provinces to Keep-level infrastructure development with the target being Chapter Houses in each. I avoid all unnecessary building in those provinces until they first build the Chapter Houses because development speed is important--it takes a while and some careful coordination to set it all up without running into delaying economic problems. Once built, I start producing Crusade "crosses" (built as a "unit" by the Chapter House), so I have multiples (at least two) ready for my first crusade series.

    I'll use Spain in Early as an example. Typically my priorities are to enlist El Cid immediately; build first-level economic, security and troop-training infrastructure elements; and then produce basic low-level but balanced combined-arms armies. I take out Aragon asap (in less than 3 turns once launched to avoid excommunication, despite the costly assault on Aragon's keep). Navarro is next, establishing the typical two-province barrier to invasion from the North. Then, As soon as viable, I begin the process of driving the Almohads back to Cyranaecia. This happens relatively quickly--too fast to use crusades, but I keep them prioritized for Egypt, a much stronger opponent and my next rival. I time my elimination of the Almohads with the development I described above, the goal being to have at least two crusade "crosses" built before eliminating the Almohads. I'll pin them in Cyraenacia and hold them there until this is achieved, usually bracing or dealing with any issues that might arise in the North of Spain with the French (usually), British (sometimes), or the HRE (rarely) while I wait for development and production to complete. The goal is to attack Egypt immediately before it has time to redistribute its defenses--with my massed conventional armies on the border of Egypt in Cyraenacia ready to support my crusader army.

    A lot can happen to delay or sometimes even invalidate this strategy (up North), but it usually doesn't change things, just delays them. As long as the Almohads are pinned and dominated in Cyranaecia, it's all good.

    So now my Crosses are built, I eliminate the Almohads (which can be done conventionally or with a crusade), then asap, drop my next cross on Egypt, and I'm off to conquer the holy lands. I attack with my Crusader and conventional armies simultaneously (defense reserves in Cyranaecia, of course--it'll be necessary to control the recently conquered populace). Egypt is almost always unprepared for this given the Turkish and Byzantine threats to its North. Once Egypt is conquered, I usally just take the Sinai with my conventionals and asap, crusade again against Palestine/Jerusalem. I queue crosses in a timely fashion so they are ready at the point I need them for the next crusade conquest, and use my accompanying conventional armies to defend and distract nearby as the crusader army besieges and conquers its target.

    Algeria and Tunisia are the best places to devote to chapter houses initially in this scenario because you won't have ships yet and need to move as fast as possible for this to work well (without neglecting economic and sea-power development!). But it takes a lot of time (20 turns minimum for castle, keep, church, and chapter house, and I find it necessary to also build watchtowers at least and often Border Forts to manage the local population effectively without having to leave an inordinate level of troops in each conquered province). Keep in mind that once the two churches are built, you'll have 4 turns at each location to build priests if you can afford them before beginning to build your crusade crosses. Priest presence can significantly reduce the time it takes for a recently conquered province to calm down. You want as many of your troops moving forward with you, not policing what you've conquered. I built the cheapest garrison troops I can behind my front lines to move forward into the conquered lands as my assault armies move forward.

    By this time, Iberia should be developing nicely (level 2 Keep and associated improvements completed in key provinces) and ship production begins. I try and dedicate two provinces soley to ship production with the goal being three eventually. This allows me to stagger production and costs, producing a ship per turn from the three, paying for only one per turn. I try to keep this up indefinitely form this point on, only stopping if prevented by treasury limitations. Priority of ship use depends on economic situation (may need to establish some trade to keep the florins flowing), but it's important to get naval support and transport logistics active off the coast of the Levant asap. This allows Crusades to "jump" instead of wading through the provinces you've already conquered a turn at a time (losing troops to desertion, messing up your garrisons). It's ideal to have your chapter houses in coastal provinces to eventually enable immediate transport from source to target via your ships.

    After each succesful crusade, if I can afford to, I pull out the special knights and Order Foot soliders and reserve them for the more serious conflicts coming later, creating complete units by combining partials as I go. Before you know it you can build up quite a few of these--and they are powerful in Early, particularly under a high-rank commander. Plus, my king is gaining Influence with every successful crusade. Ah, this brings up one more thing: when the king dies, the new king will have reduced Influence. It may be good to time your crusade usage such that you can build up the new king's Influence quickly with continued crusades (which might mean delaying them for a bit when the current king gets old; they tend to die in their mid-50s-60s).

    Addendum: Iirc, there is a Keep and a church in Castille at the onset on the game in Early. I seem to remember noticing this recently (after all these years, I recognize the significance of this advantage for Spain :/ ). One could start crusading against the Almohads from there earlier. I'm going to try incorporating an earlier use of crusades via Castille while still applying the same general strategy I've outlined in my next Spain/Early game. Also, Leon has a bonus of +1 valor for Knights of Santiago, the Spanish crusading knights. If a crusade is built here and knights are awarded by the pope for the effort, They'll have +1 valor (+1A+1D+2M)

    Anyway, just one scenario that hopefully illustrates one way to use crusades effectively that isn't quite like they are typically used, from what I've observed. An alternative approach.

    Hmm. Been a very long time; not so sure this reads very well. Hope it's clear enough to make sense of.
    Be intent on loyalty
    While others aspire to perform meritorious services
    Concentrate on purity of intent
    While those around you are beset by egoism


    misc kanryodo

    Member thankful for this post:

    gallum 


  14. #14

    Default Re: What is the use of crusade?

    Quote Originally Posted by Togakure View Post
    Hmm. Been a very long time; not so sure this reads very well. Hope it's clear enough to make sense of.
    It reads pretty well, welcome back

  15. #15
    Toh-GAH-koo-reh Member Togakure's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Zen Garden
    Posts
    2,705

    Default Re: What is the use of crusade?

    Hi there, gallum. Umm ... we've met before, right? Gollum?

    Nice to see activity, expertise, and interesting discussion still happening in here. Kudos, gentlemen. I am finally able to visit and stay a bit and not feel the heavy sadness. It's taken quite a while. Thanks for the welcome, m8.
    Be intent on loyalty
    While others aspire to perform meritorious services
    Concentrate on purity of intent
    While those around you are beset by egoism


    misc kanryodo

  16. #16

    Default Re: What is the use of crusade?

    Quote Originally Posted by Togakure View Post
    Hi there, gallum. Umm ... we've met before, right? Gollum?

    Nice to see activity, expertise, and interesting discussion still happening in here. Kudos, gentlemen. I am finally able to visit and stay a bit and not feel the heavy sadness. It's taken quite a while. Thanks for the welcome, m8.
    So we have.. chase the sadness away mate.. take good care

    Member thankful for this post:



  17. #17
    Ja mata, TosaInu Forum Administrator edyzmedieval's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Fortress of the Mountains
    Posts
    10,595

    Default Re: What is the use of crusade?

    Adding to this thread since it's at the top of the pile - I used a couple of these in my England campaign, and they are of maximal importance only in Glorious Achievements mode.
    Ja mata, TosaInu. You will forever be remembered.

    Proud

    Been to:

    10 years+ at the Org

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO