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Thread: US "Mid-term" Elections 2018

  1. #31
    The Red-titled Forum Administrator Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: US "Mid-term" Elections 2018

    American attack ads are hilarious...


    "Oh no, they are going to treat me for free! I wanted to get charged $200,000 in live in crippling debt for the rest of my life" cue Student Debt, cue Employment issues in repaying.
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    Ni dieu ni maītre! Senior Member a completely inoffensive name's Avatar
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    Default Re: US "Mid-term" Elections 2018

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    This was a plebiscite. So this is one time that Brexit has absolutely no relevance whatsoever. It was a decision by the PM to hold it and not one that the country expected to get since the EU seems to get on best when the people are sidelined.

    I personally prefer the German model to what we have in the UK - I think that the UK model is better than that in the USA - but you set thebar very low.

    Our written Constitution doesn't allow the President or Congress to pose questions directly to the people. Sounds like your unwritten Constitution allowed British politicians to dump their responsibility on charged political questions in a very divisive way...
    What difference does it make if the result was unexpected?

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    I was speaking more to the thread than you, except where I named you.

    Bro, how do California place fewer votes than Florida with twice the population size? That's shameful my dude.
    Many Californian Republicans don't show up in California because they feel the state is lost to the Democrats already. Never mind the fact the CALGOP lost the state when they went full Nazi in asking for complete removal of the brown people in the state.

    Also, this might be alien to people who live outside of California, but since California is solidly blue and has a solidly blue government, we have been generally content with the current state of California politics.
    Governor Moonbeam has been an amazing governor and is the reason I hate term limits.
    In all these papers we see a love of honest work, an aversion to shams, a caution in the enunciation of conclusions, a distrust of rash generalizations and speculations based on uncertain premises. He was never anxious to add one more guess on doubtful matters in the hope of hitting the truth, or what might pass as such for a time, but was always ready to take infinite pains in the most careful testing of every theory. With these qualities was united a modesty which forbade the pushing of his own claims and desired no reputation except the unsought tribute of competent judges.

  3. #33
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: US "Mid-term" Elections 2018

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    American attack ads are hilarious...
    [...]

    "Oh no, they are going to treat me for free! I wanted to get charged $200,000 in live in crippling debt for the rest of my life" cue Student Debt, cue Employment issues in repaying.
    To answer the ad:
    It looks very sexy (in both ways), so sit back and relax?!

    The only odd thing is the universal job guarantee, but I guess it riles up the working class who prefer to work in a coal mine for themselves rather than let a robot do it and enjoy socialist paradise.


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  4. #34

    Default Re: US "Mid-term" Elections 2018

    Quote Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name View Post
    Many Californian Republicans don't show up in California because they feel the state is lost to the Democrats already. Never mind the fact the CALGOP lost the state when they went full Nazi in asking for complete removal of the brown people in the state.

    Also, this might be alien to people who live outside of California, but since California is solidly blue and has a solidly blue government, we have been generally content with the current state of California politics.
    Governor Moonbeam has been an amazing governor and is the reason I hate term limits.
    Prop 187?

    What's Brown like on immigration? I heard he hated it back in the 1970s. Then again, many labor Democrats did yet.

    Our written Constitution doesn't allow the President or Congress to pose questions directly to the people. Sounds like your unwritten Constitution allowed British politicians to dump their responsibility on charged political questions in a very divisive way...
    What difference does it make if the result was unexpected?
    That's actually a very interesting question. Does Congress lack the authority to pass enabling legislation allowing the invocation of national referenda that would have the force of federal law/policy, or require the implementation of corresponding law/policy? Maybe such a thing already exists, idk.

    ###

    Rory, on the subject of discourse and governance, I came upon this quote from Aneurin Bevan, godfather of British socialism in the 20th century and architect of the NHS:

    "The eyes of the world are turning to Great Britain. We now have the moral leadership of the world, and before many years are over we shall have people coming here as to a modern Mecca, learning from us in the twentieth century as they learned from us in the seventeenth," said Mr Aneurin Bevan, Minister of Health, at a Labour rally in Manchester yesterday.
    The meeting was called to celebrate the anniversary of Labour's accession to power. The Labour party, he said, would win the 1950 election because successful Toryism and an intelligent electorate were a contradiction in terms. His own experiences ensured that no amount of cajolery could eradicate from his heart a deep burning hatred of the Tory party. "So far as I am concerned they are lower than vermin," he went on. "They condemned millions of people to semi-starvation. I warn you young men and women, do not listen to what they are saying, do not listen to the seductions of Lord Woolton. They have not changed, or if they have they are slightly worse."

    The Government decided the issues in accordance with the best principles, he said: "The weak first; and the strong next." Mr. Churchill preferred a free-for-all, but what was Toryism except organised Spivvery?

    As a result of controls, the well-to-do had not been able to build houses, but ordinary men and women were moving into their own homes. Progress could not be made without pain. People who campaigned against controls were conducting an immoral campaign. There was a kind of schizophrenia in the country, so that people reading newspapers and hearing talk in luxury hotels got an entirely different conception of what was happening, which did not square with the statistics. The bodies and spirits of the people were being built up - but the Government's efforts could not be sustained except by the energies and labour of the people. Production must be raised to make the new legislative reforms a living reality.

    The Government never promised in 1945 that everybody was going to be better off. It knew some were worse off to-day, but it always intended they should be.

    [Bevan's "vermin" remark - one of the most famous jibes in politics - was adroitly turned against the Attlee government by Tory speakers, who pretended it insulted their voters rather than policy makers. However, Bevan merely retorted that men of Celtic fire were needed to bring about great reforms like the new NHS. That was why, he explained, Welshmen were put in charge instead of "the bovine and phlegmatic Anglo-Saxons."
    On one hand, uhhh....

    On the other hand, the Republicans like to say that the people want someone who "tells it like it is".
    Last edited by Montmorency; 11-12-2018 at 03:44.
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    Apr 04-Nov 11 Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: US "Mid-term" Elections 2018

    I find all this talk about stratagem to be misplaced. One of two things will eventually happen to kill the GOP. The old people who vote for them will pass or younger people will reach a critical mass of participation and cause a tipping point.

    That is the reason for the obsession with the supreme court and voter suppression tactics, the GOP knows the math.

    Now obviously that is something to fight because of everything that has happened. However Democratic leadership either seems oblivious or willing to wait them out. That is the totally wrong way to deal with a group who knows their collective fate is sealed.

    Beto lost , Frustrating with someone as unlikeable as Cruz. Even more frustrating, half of Texans didn't vote.
    “I was not designed to be forced. I will breathe after my own fashion. Let us see who is the strongest.” -Thoreau

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    Default Re: US "Mid-term" Elections 2018

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    American attack ads are hilarious...

    "Oh no, they are going to treat me for free! I wanted to get charged $200,000 in live in crippling debt for the rest of my life" cue Student Debt, cue Employment issues in repaying.
    The future of America might be Norway, which leads the world in countless categories.

    Oh noes, how dreadful.

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    Hǫršar Member Viking's Avatar
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    Default Re: US "Mid-term" Elections 2018

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    "Oh no, they are going to treat me for free!
    Of course you are not treated for free, you pay for the healthcare in forms of taxes and other fees. Publicly funded health care is a mandatory insurance with the state as the insurance company. If you want to be treated for free with public healthcare, you'll have to be on welfare so that you don't pay anything to the state; but that's for the few.
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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: US "Mid-term" Elections 2018

    Hillary is there, can someone feed her som crickets that is what I do with my reptiles.

  9. #39
    The Red-titled Forum Administrator Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: US "Mid-term" Elections 2018

    Quote Originally Posted by Viking View Post
    Of course you are not treated for free, you pay for the healthcare in forms of taxes and other fees. Publicly funded health care is a mandatory insurance with the state as the insurance company. If you want to be treated for free with public healthcare, you'll have to be on welfare so that you don't pay anything to the state; but that's for the few.
    "Free at point of access with no significant unavoidable charges which will put me in crippling debt" *

    I was going for simple as we all know what it means, but there is the expanded version if you desire that.
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    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: US "Mid-term" Elections 2018

    Quote Originally Posted by Viking View Post
    Publicly funded health care is a mandatory insurance with the state as the insurance company.
    Of course that is not correct since Germany has several public insurance companies that are not directly run by the government.
    They're technically (partially) government entities, but work independently, similar to a self-governing province one could say. If the government were the insurance company, there would be only one, but we have quite a few of them: https://www.krankenkassen.de/gesetzl...nkassen-liste/


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  11. #41
    Ni dieu ni maītre! Senior Member a completely inoffensive name's Avatar
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    Default Re: US "Mid-term" Elections 2018

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    Prop 187?

    What's Brown like on immigration? I heard he hated it back in the 1970s. Then again, many labor Democrats did yet.
    Prop 187 was one part. Keep in mind that some really disgusting Propositions get passed and then California goes ape-shit and flips the opposite way.
    This is the same state that passed Prop 8 as well...

    Brown isn't as loose on immigration as many San Fransisco liberals want, but to the overwhelming majority of liberals in here it fits right in. Welcome to come here and participate under no discrimination, but there is a legal difference between being a citizen and a non-citizen and we should keep a difference if we want immigrants to assimilate and become citizens. His first term was before my time, but my understanding is that he has mellowed out since the 1970s.

    His admin has been the gold standard (among US governors) for encouraging Climate Change driven policies towards cap and trade and renewable energy. Debt as GDP for California has also decreased since 2010/2011.


    That's actually a very interesting question. Does Congress lack the authority to pass enabling legislation allowing the invocation of national referenda that would have the force of federal law/policy, or require the implementation of corresponding law/policy? Maybe such a thing already exists, idk.
    I think the Constitution makes it clear about a "republican" form of government. Idk how the courts would interpret that in the context of the representatives choosing to provide public referenda though.
    In all these papers we see a love of honest work, an aversion to shams, a caution in the enunciation of conclusions, a distrust of rash generalizations and speculations based on uncertain premises. He was never anxious to add one more guess on doubtful matters in the hope of hitting the truth, or what might pass as such for a time, but was always ready to take infinite pains in the most careful testing of every theory. With these qualities was united a modesty which forbade the pushing of his own claims and desired no reputation except the unsought tribute of competent judges.

  12. #42
    Hǫršar Member Viking's Avatar
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    Default Re: US "Mid-term" Elections 2018

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    Of course that is not correct since Germany has several public insurance companies that are not directly run by the government.
    They're technically (partially) government entities, but work independently, similar to a self-governing province one could say. If the government were the insurance company, there would be only one, but we have quite a few of them: https://www.krankenkassen.de/gesetzl...nkassen-liste/
    So, very broadly speaking, you currently have the same health care system in Germany as the US has, aka Obamacare.

    If you actually pay for your health care directly through bills (or can see the amount deducted from the salary for this purpose), it should be even more obvious that it is not free; and that over a lifetime, it should amount to quite a sum. A sum that you could use to pay for the treatment of a disease that the public health care system is unwilling to cash out for, either because the treatment is too expensive or experimental. Different health care systems have different benefits and drawbacks, and you can expect that some individuals will fall through the cracks with any system.

    In other words, health care "free at point of access" - if you actually get access to it, which in practice is not always.
    Last edited by Viking; 11-12-2018 at 21:25.
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    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: US "Mid-term" Elections 2018

    FFS, there are many different models of healthcare in the world. And almost all scale on approximately a line where extra money leads to extra improvements. The main outlier is the USA with their extremely inefficient system.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
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    Member Member Crandar's Avatar
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    Default Re: US "Mid-term" Elections 2018

    Apparently, maintaining a small majority in the Senate and losing it in the House counts as a great victory. Did a portion of the electorate always suffer from such a severe lack of touch with reality or has it recently become worse, due to polarization?

  15. #45
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: US "Mid-term" Elections 2018

    Quote Originally Posted by Viking View Post
    So, very broadly speaking, you currently have the same health care system in Germany as the US has, aka Obamacare.

    If you actually pay for your health care directly through bills (or can see the amount deducted from the salary for this purpose), it should be even more obvious that it is not free; and that over a lifetime, it should amount to quite a sum. A sum that you could use to pay for the treatment of a disease that the public health care system is unwilling to cash out for, either because the treatment is too expensive or experimental. Different health care systems have different benefits and drawbacks, and you can expect that some individuals will fall through the cracks with any system.

    In other words, health care "free at point of access" - if you actually get access to it, which in practice is not always.
    No, we don't. Only some people pay a bill and there is also a parallel private insurance system, where people also pay a monthly bill.
    What you can access is defined by the state as a minimum level of care and it covers pretty much everything essential that is not a very experimental treatment abroad or whatever. For medications you usually have to pay a little.

    What you're really wrong about though, is that I was arguing about it being free or not. I don't know why you bring up that strawman argument when I didn't even touch the subject of cost.

    That no system is perfect is a terrible argument if many of them are vastly superior over the crappy one you're defending.


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  16. #46
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, Cub Shoot 2 Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Treasure Diver Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Slack Man Champion, Japanese Baseball Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Super Mario Mushroom Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Fish Kill Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, KF 9000 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: US "Mid-term" Elections 2018

    Quote Originally Posted by Crandar View Post
    Apparently, maintaining a small majority in the Senate and losing it in the House counts as a great victory.
    History is not exactly replete with pols who, following poor election results, openly declare 'we got our asses handed to us by the voters. We clearly need to rethink things.' In the USA's current delirium of narcissistic polarization, no admission of weakness can be made lest the other side use it against you. So "we've always been at war with Eastasia."
    Quote Originally Posted by Crandar View Post
    Did a portion of the electorate always suffer from such a severe lack of touch with reality or has it recently become worse, due to polarization?
    Of course a portion of the electorate suffers from being haphazardly indexed with reality. Rabid single issue voters who would vote for to adopt a dictatorship as long as abortion was outlawed; people whose nativism is driven more by a desire to retain the advantages they enjoyed from the lottery of birth without an appreciation for the value of change; people like my mother in law who voted straight democrat in every election for nearly 40 years (despite being pro death penalty, anti-amnesty for illegals, convinced that the welfare system was a hammock and not a safety net, and a believer in lower taxes) -- we have always had our voters who were out of touch.

    But it is the self-chosen ignorance of our electorate that allows for and encourages the polarization. The loudest voices from the political extremes scream for their agendas, the media gleefully exacerbates on and focuses upon "the race" or the conflict or who is "on top" because THAT is good for revenues, and the ignorant mass -- a goodly portion of whom vote despite their ignorance of the particulars -- fall in line with the loud voices as feels most emotionally rewarding to themselves.


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  17. #47
    Hǫršar Member Viking's Avatar
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    Default Re: US "Mid-term" Elections 2018

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    What you're really wrong about though, is that I was arguing about it being free or not. I don't know why you bring up that strawman argument when I didn't even touch the subject of cost.
    Where does it say anything about what you are arguing? No, the point is that if you are in a healthcare system where you can easily see how much money you are investing in it, its total cost for you personally is also easy to calculate; a cost with which you can establish a much better basis for comparing healthcare systems.

    That no system is perfect is a terrible argument if many of them are vastly superior over the crappy one you're defending.
    Establishing facts; not defending, not attacking.
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  18. #48
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: US "Mid-term" Elections 2018

    Trump is there to stay, for a while at least he will be impeached evenyualy. I don't like him because the always objective notion that I don't like his face. But he isn't really doing such a bad job, it is just impossible to find him sympathatic

  19. #49
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: US "Mid-term" Elections 2018

    Quote Originally Posted by Viking View Post
    Where does it say anything about what you are arguing? No, the point is that if you are in a healthcare system where you can easily see how much money you are investing in it, its total cost for you personally is also easy to calculate; a cost with which you can establish a much better basis for comparing healthcare systems.
    It doesn't because I wasn't. My post cannot say anything about something it wasn't saying. It's not a hard concept.
    Your point is beside my point and therefore irrelevant to my argument that you were wrong.
    You keep trying to drag me into your discussion that I specifically wish not to enter. So get your filthy hands off of me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Viking View Post
    Establishing facts; not defending, not attacking.
    Except that your fact was either wrong (not a fact) or irrelevant to my counter that wasn't even aimed at your fact. Depending on what fact you are talking about. My original point was very much related to post #39, if that helps you in any way.

    With that said, I've only recently enjoyed some of that free healthcare.
    Last edited by Husar; Yesterday at 15:49.


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