Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 42

Thread: Re-working EBII Caucasian Units

  1. #1
    Uergobretos Senior Member Brennus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Korieltauuon.
    Posts
    7,796

    Default Re-working EBII Caucasian Units

    Hello @Levan and @Khevsur sorry for the lack of recent contact regarding the Caucasian units.

    Thank you for your offer to assist us

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Quote Originally Posted by Levan
    Hello Brennus,

    Sorry for the delay. We will gladly share our information.

    First of all, the naming is incorrect. The word "warriors" is misspelled, it should be Meomrebi (or Meomarni) instead of Mehomni.
    The word "Kartvelian" is misused, it is a term to describe Georgian language group or peoples. "Georgian" would be "Kartveli". So, the correct name would be Kartveli Meomrebi (Kartlian Warriors).

    Secondly, archaeological materials and historical descriptions indicate that Kartlian warriors should be represented as heavily equipped spearmen.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 





    Helmets
    You should remove the leather and horny helmets. They aren't authentic. There is a record of Chalybes wearing helmets with horns though.
    Chalcidian helmets found in Georgia
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 





    You can also use eastern conical helmets. They are depicted on a pitcher found near Mtskheta, IV-II century.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Probably like these:



    Armor
    The unit should be equipped with scale armor. You could also use leather armor according to Strabo.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 






    Greaves
    Three pairs of greaves have been found in Georgia, one of them even had hip/thigh guarding plates.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    Shields
    Current flat shields, with some stripes, aren't reasonable.
    The horn below was found in Eastern Georgia (Kartli), so Kartlians are the ones who should have these shields.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    Round shields, can be used as well but they should be larger, curved and strengthened with metal plates.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 




    On the shields, you could draw Borjgali(symbol of the sun and eternity), bull, lion.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 








    Weapons
    Spears should be the primary melee weapon
    These are the types of spears found in Kartli, relevant to the period.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    There is numerous evidence of both swords and axes. I think you should use swords as a secondary weapon but unit models should also have hatchets for historical representation. Bellow are the findings appropriate for Kartli.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 






    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 






    Skins
    Kartvelian units should have Caucasian skins, in the game they could probably be represented by South European. Those Middle Eastern skins are inappropriate.

    Khevsurs drawings could be used as samples, though they are old(shields should be larger).
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 





    The team has decided that this thread is the fastest way to re-consider the units. I hope that is ok with you two?

    We would also like to know if you would be interested in helping develop Caucasus specific character traits?

    @Sarkiss and @Arjos were responsible for most of our Caucasian units, and they will be your primary points of contact. @wermez has also expressed an interest in re-working some aspects of the Caucasian units.

    Please let me know if you have any questions. Simply ping me via @Brennus



    donated by ARCHIPPOS for being friendly to new people.
    donated by Macilrille for wit.
    donated by stratigos vasilios for starting new and interesting threads
    donated by Tellos Athenaios as a welcome to Campus Martius


  2. #2

    Default Re: Re-working EBII Caucasian Units

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	1.jpg 
Views:	54 
Size:	146.7 KB 
ID:	21959

    Member thankful for this post:



  3. #3

    Default Re: Re-working EBII Caucasian Units

    Hello everyone, we are willing to assist with anything related to Kartvelians(Kartlians, Colchians, Native Pontians). We have profound information on the game period to create several, to a great extent historical, units. If you reconsider, we could even bring into being a whole new faction. I think it's a shame that the first Georgian kingdom(Kartli) is missing in this mod when it played an important role throughout the period and we have more than enough information to historically represent it.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Re-working EBII Caucasian Units

    Quote Originally Posted by Levan View Post
    Hello everyone, we are willing to assist with anything related to Kartvelians(Kartlians, Colchians, Native Pontians). We have profound information on the game period to create several, to a great extent historical, units. If you reconsider, we could even bring into being a whole new faction. I think it's a shame that the first Georgian kingdom(Kartli) is missing in this mod when it played an important role throughout the period and we have more than enough information to historically represent it.
    Due to the lack of faction slots I don't think the team will create a Kartli faction. But it would be great if they could be a mini faction represented in game :)

  5. #5

    Default Re: Re-working EBII Caucasian Units

    hello.

    Kartlians (Iberians ) were Heavy spearmens and shock cavalry, also Skirmisher Cavalry. They had war chariots.

    Egrisians (Colchis) were heavy Hoplite , also spearmens and axemans .

    Chans ( Chalybes, Tibareni, Macrones and other south west Kartvelian tribes) were spearmens and skrimshers.

    Svans( Misimians ) Were Archers , with Poisoned arrows.

    Heniochi,also Apsilae Lived in North West Georgia , They were light warriors ( They were not adyghe and Circassian peoples )
    Last edited by Khevsur; 01-03-2019 at 14:24.

  6. #6
    Member Member Zarrr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Poland
    Posts
    1,076

    Default Re: Re-working EBII Caucasian Units

    Quote Originally Posted by Khevsur View Post
    hello.

    Kartlians (Iberians ) were Heavy spearmens and shock cavalry, also Skirmisher Cavalry. They had war chariots.

    Egrisians (Colchis) were heavy Hoplite , also spearmens and axemans .

    Chans ( Chalybes, Tibareni, Macrones and other south west Kartvelian tribes) were spearmens and skrimshers.

    Svans( Misimians ) Were Archers , with Poisoned arrows.

    Heniochi,also Apsilae Lived in North West Georgia , They were light warriors ( They were not adyghe and Circassian peoples )
    Could you show us your sources related to all your suggestions? We need historical and archeological sources for every your proposition.

    Bear in mind that free slots for units are very limited(in M2TW is units limit that is 500, and we are very close to the limit). Also we changed one unit, Armenian lancers are now Caucasian lancers, name and description of this unit was changed.
    Last edited by Zarrr; 01-03-2019 at 19:56.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Re-working EBII Caucasian Units

    in near future I'm planning visit to a Archaeologist and author of the book "Weapons and Armor in Georgia
    (5th century BC - 4th century AD)
    " Gela Gamkrelidze . He promised to help me. please Continue working After the visit.
    :)

    http://georgiannationalmuseum.academ...elaGamkrelidze

    Watch his works
    on english language
    Last edited by Khevsur; 01-06-2019 at 18:08.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Re-working EBII Caucasian Units

    also Georgian and english languages

  9. #9

  10. #10

    Default Re: Re-working EBII Caucasian Units

    I am back :)
    I will present you Unit Kartlian (iberian) Noble Warrior

    Visual Kartlian noble and Low class Warrior











    shields
    nobles shields is urartian type round wood bronze covered, With Relief images. 40-50 cm Diameter.








    Helmets is with Metal plates







    Also Chalcidean






    was possible have urartian and assyrian Type helmets





    armour
    armour is scale bronze , have foot guard.








    first weapons is Spear, Second sword , also have axes








































    Belts


    Last edited by Khevsur; 01-19-2019 at 15:33.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Re-working EBII Caucasian Units

    Chan Warrior ( Chalibean )

    Chans Are light Spearmens and Skrimshers ,with curved swords and leather covered Spinning medium size round shields . spear is 2.30-2. 40 cm. javelin spears is two

    with Flax armor , lower is spinning flax ropes , dark red foot bandage.




    Last edited by Khevsur; 01-21-2019 at 16:26.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Re-working EBII Caucasian Units

    Egrisians ( Colchians )

    Egrisians are Hoplite Spearmens and light skrimsher-axeman. Phazaghashska chalcidean helmets ( Not Thracian helmets ) , Rectangle and hoplon shields Give Egrisians , Deleted your leather helmets ( not real ) . Remove hills from chalcidean helmets :)







    Egrisians native Spears



    Javelins









    egrisnians hoplon shield and symbol for hoplon shields (Ignore this axses, This axes is Very old, but animals and paints is Colchian )



    Deer were Kartvelians Holy animal






























    deleted Phazaghashska , make Egrisian light Skrimsher axeman , with two javelins , axe and round leather covered shields . like iberian light warrior



    Last edited by Khevsur; 01-19-2019 at 15:37.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Re-working EBII Caucasian Units

    Kartvelian Weapons V-II bC




















































































    javelins





    Last edited by Khevsur; 01-24-2019 at 20:01.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Re-working EBII Caucasian Units

    Native Names

    Iberians Spearmens - Kartlelta Shubosanni
    Iberians Warriors - Kartlelta Meomarni ( for Swordsmen Version )

    Colchians Spearmens - Egrisali Borzalamephi
    Colchians Skrimshers ( Phazaghashska ) - Egrisali Khesh-borzalamephi
    Chalibeans Spearmens - Chani Borzalamephi

    ............................................

    Iberia-Kartli. Iberians -Kartlelni
    Colchis- Egrisi. Colchians - Egriselni
    Chaldia, Chalibea - Chaneti . Chaldeans , Chalibeans - Channi

    Kartvelian People old Symbol is borjgali with 7 ray





    Last edited by Khevsur; 01-22-2019 at 13:08.

  15. #15
    Member Member Zarrr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Poland
    Posts
    1,076

    Default Re: Re-working EBII Caucasian Units

    Quote Originally Posted by Khevsur View Post

    deleted Phazaghashska , make Egrisian light Skrimsher axeman , with two javelins , axe and round leather covered shields . like iberian light warrior
    Why do you want to delete Phęzęghashkha?

  16. #16

    Default Re: Re-working EBII Caucasian Units

    in Colchis adygheans coming in late middle ages. also this unit weapons is kartvelian weapons. this weapons Found on the territory of Georgia.

    Phęzęghashkha Is Adyghe name, is not georgians name.

    you can create svan( misimian) archer, kartlian (iberian) shock and skrimsher cavalry, and kartlian war chariot? are many materials
    Last edited by Khevsur; 01-20-2019 at 08:18.

  17. #17
    Member Member Zarrr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Poland
    Posts
    1,076

    Default Re: Re-working EBII Caucasian Units

    Quote Originally Posted by Khevsur View Post
    Phęzęghashkha Is Adyghe name, is not georgians name.
    It is true, but they are proto-Circassians not proto-Georgians.

    This unit represent proto-Circassians and represent peoples from northern mountainside of Caucasus. Phęzęghashkha is based mostly on findings from princely burial in Mezmay and stuff from Kolchis.

    http://www.academia.edu/3016389/_201...tern_Caucasus_

    Quote Originally Posted by Khevsur View Post
    kartlian (iberian) shock and skrimsher cavalry
    Iberian/Kartlian shock cavalry actually is in game.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Re-working EBII Caucasian Units

    proto Circassians not live in Colchis In the Hellenistic era , not give them a colchian weapons - shields from gomi cup and hoplon shields from Georgia
    Last edited by Khevsur; 01-20-2019 at 20:19.

  19. #19
    Member Member Zarrr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Poland
    Posts
    1,076

    Default Re: Re-working EBII Caucasian Units

    Quote Originally Posted by Khevsur View Post
    proto Circassians not live in Colchis In the Hellenistic era , not give them a colchian weapons - shields from gomi cup and hoplon shields from Georgia
    These rectangular shields which are depicted on Gomi cup are also known from various depictions from Northern Pontic territories, Crimea etc.

    http://nomadic.org.uk/masterpieces-o...-battle-scenes
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



  20. #20

    Default Re: Re-working EBII Caucasian Units

    Thanks for the information, First is from georgia , first give This shields Colchian units

    Phęzęghashkha - Leave it as it is

    and create a new units - Colchian Skrimshers - "Egrisali Khesh-Borzalamephi"


    Can you rename a name Iberians Cavalry ? Kartlian Cavalry - "Kartlelta Mkhedroba"


    my new paint. iberian Spearmen - "Kartlelta Shubosanni"




    Last edited by Khevsur; 01-20-2019 at 21:42.

  21. #21
    Member Member Zarrr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Poland
    Posts
    1,076

    Default Re: Re-working EBII Caucasian Units

    Quote Originally Posted by Khevsur View Post
    Egrisians ( Colchians )

    Egrisians are Hoplite Spearmens and light skrimsher-axeman. Phazaghashska chalcidean helmets ( Not Thracian helmets ) , Rectangle and hoplon shields Give Egrisians , Deleted your leather helmets ( not real ) . Remove hills from chalcidean helmets :)
    Why do you think that leather helmets were not real? There are sources which describe helmets from organic materials used in Caucasus region.

    "The Albanians use javelins and bows; and they wear breastplates and large oblong shields, and helmets made of the skins of wild animals, similar to those worn by the Iberians."
    http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...rabo/11D*.html

  22. #22

    Default Re: Re-working EBII Caucasian Units

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarrr View Post
    Why do you think that leather helmets were not real? There are sources which describe helmets from organic materials used in Caucasus region.

    "The Albanians use javelins and bows; and they wear breastplates and large oblong shields, and helmets made of the skins of wild animals, similar to those worn by the Iberians."
    http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...rabo/11D*.html
    Starting with Xenophon, we can find in almost every Byzantine and late medieval european historical sources that Georgians had conical hats and in ancient times, conical leather helmets.those helmets are often compared to paphlagonian helmets by the greek authors.

    I think Kartvelian(Cholchis , Iberians, Chalibeans ) warriors Leather Helmets was Similar to that .








    It is not similar Phęzęghashkha leather helmet
    Last edited by Khevsur; 01-24-2019 at 13:16.

  23. #23
    Member Member Zarrr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Poland
    Posts
    1,076

    Default Re: Re-working EBII Caucasian Units

    Quote Originally Posted by Khevsur View Post
    Native Names

    Iberians Spearmens - Kartlelta Shubosanni
    Iberians Warriors - Kartlelta Meomarni ( for Swordsmen Version )

    Colchians Spearmens - Egrisali Borzalamephi
    Colchians Skrimshers ( Phazaghashska ) - Egrisali Khesh-borzalamephi
    Chalibeans Spearmens - Chani Borzalamephi
    These names looks modern, in mod all units have names from ancient languages or their reconstructions.

  24. #24

    Default Re: Re-working EBII Caucasian Units

    Just to remember an older post from you with the same units (I think?).
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...(Egrisi)-units

  25. #25

    Default Re: Re-working EBII Caucasian Units

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarrr View Post
    These names looks modern, in mod all units have names from ancient languages or their reconstructions.
    No. this is old Georgian dialect .

    for example:

    Modern Georgian - Kartleli Shubosnebi . Old Georgian - Kartlelta shubosanni
    Modern Georgian - Egriseli Shubosnebi . Old Georgian ( Egrisian Kartvelian Language ) - Egrisali Borzalamephi.

    Im Georgian , I know more about Georgia , You know less about Georgia .
    Last edited by Khevsur; 01-22-2019 at 10:10.

  26. #26

    Default Re: Re-working EBII Caucasian Units

    Quote Originally Posted by Lusitanio View Post
    Just to remember an older post from you with the same units (I think?).
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...(Egrisi)-units
    I learned a lot after that :)
    Last edited by Khevsur; 01-22-2019 at 10:15.

  27. #27

    Default Re: Re-working EBII Caucasian Units

    Quote Originally Posted by Khevsur View Post
    I learned a lot after that :)
    Good

  28. #28
    Member Member Zarrr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Poland
    Posts
    1,076

    Default Re: Re-working EBII Caucasian Units

    Quote Originally Posted by Khevsur View Post
    No. this is old Georgian dialect .

    for example:

    Modern Georgian - Kartleli Shubosnebi . Old Georgian - Kartlelta shubosanni
    Modern Georgian - Egriseli Shubosnebi . Old Georgian ( Egrisian Kartvelian Language ) - Egrisali Borzalamephi.

    Im Georgian , I know more about Georgia , You know less about Georgia .
    How old is this dialect? Languages in mod must be from hellenistic period(3rd - 1st century BC).

  29. #29

    Default Re: Re-working EBII Caucasian Units

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarrr View Post
    How old is this dialect? Languages in mod must be from hellenistic period(3rd - 1st century BC).
    Georgian language has changed a little after the hellenistic period :)



    Georgian (Kartvelian) Language is 4:

    1.Georgian, Karvelian ( Iberia- Kingdom of Kartli ) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExkXJcx7RZ4

    2.Mingrelian (Colchis- Egrisi) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGNf0qbaxcA
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XcjldoQaMA

    3.Svan (Missimians) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAtgawjkrqM
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0sM5mMW_T4Y

    4.Laz ( Chalibeans , - Chani - lazi ) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PlZyxq2y5Cg
    Last edited by Khevsur; 01-23-2019 at 11:27.

  30. #30

    Default Re: Re-working EBII Caucasian Units

    my new paint. unit name Svan Warriors (eng) - Svani meomrebi (modern Georgian) - Mushvan Meshialaar ( old svan language )


Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO