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Thread: Can The "forbidden Six" be used as Mounts?

  1. #1
    Member Member Tyberius's Avatar
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    Default Can The "forbidden Seven" be used as Mounts?

    Hi guys, I'm somewhat rusty on this modding thing and I had a crazy idea, that maybe has been tested before, so I wanted to know if someone has tried to use the (actually) "forbidden seven" ("Peasant","ChainHlm","HlPlArSH","LArmWCav","MKnight","MSHelm","PlateS" ) as horses. (mounts) it would be great to have units mounted in hazel/grey/white/black/ horses...
    Last edited by Tyberius; 01-19-2019 at 06:10.

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    Member Member dimitrios the samian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can The "forbidden Seven" be used as Mounts?

    howdy Tyberius , good to see you back mate !
    .... Not sure about that ... its a a questin for macsen , stazi , Axalon , Caravel ?
    But i reckon we could easily double the amount of frames per Bif plate thus doubling the variety of troops we have !
    cheers

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    Second-hand chariot salesman Senior Member macsen rufus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can The "forbidden Seven" be used as Mounts?

    Hola Tyberius - good question....I've never tried them for mounts. My gut feeling is that they would probably still cause CTDs if given to any faction over #20, but then again, if they were mounts, perhaps the battle engine wouldn't be making those checks for shields etc etc.... so, I'd suggest a trial. It will either work or not, and then we'd all know for sure
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    Member Member Tyberius's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can The "forbidden Seven" be used as Mounts?

    Well, Sadly I can confirm, the forbidden 7 cannot be used as mounts either, it works ok for custom battles but it will cause a ctd in campaign.

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    Member Member dimitrios the samian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can The "forbidden Seven" be used as Mounts?

    Good that you trialed it ...saves others the time .
    Well it looks like using 2 mounts per Bif Plate , will fit in easily ! .
    Doubles the variety of mounted troops .

  6. #6
    Member Member Tyberius's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can The "forbidden Seven" be used as Mounts?

    you mean to optimize the space and squeeze 2 different textures in the same Bif? do you get rid of the "dying" animation to do that? or maybe just keep only one dying animation instead of all 4?

    I will try it!
    Last edited by Tyberius; 01-21-2019 at 06:07.

  7. #7
    Member Member dimitrios the samian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can The "forbidden Seven" be used as Mounts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyberius View Post
    you mean to optimize the space and squeeze 2 different textures in the same Bif? do you get rid of the "dying" animation to do that? or maybe just keep only one dying animation instead of all 4?

    I will try it!

    yes .... if need be you can get rid of two dying animations .
    Yes try it Tyb ...any questions pm me .
    cheers

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    Member Member Stazi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can The "forbidden Seven" be used as Mounts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyberius View Post
    you mean to optimize the space and squeeze 2 different textures in the same Bif? do you get rid of the "dying" animation to do that? or maybe just keep only one dying animation instead of all 4?

    I will try it!
    Instead of 512x512 you can use 1024x1024 unit texture and easily put 4 types/colors of the same mount with the same quality into one folder (like LiHorse). In UNIT_PROD you just add another MOUNT unit type and the rest is similar to any normal unit. Just check all needed entries for existing mount types and you'll know. IIRC Macsen was going to make use of this trick in one of his mods so maybe he can add some details here.
    I believe adding new mount folders or using existing ones that belong to regular units is not possible due to the hardcoded effects linked to them.
    "Do not fight for glory. Do not fight for love of your lord. Do not fight for hatred, honor or faith. Fight only for victory and you will succeed." - Uji sensei.

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    Member Member dimitrios the samian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can The "forbidden Seven" be used as Mounts?

    hello stazi ...
    Im certain (without checking) it was a 640x640 Bif Macsen prepared for some new Romans Yan made for the Ancient mod & he also combined two Hellenic Bifs into a 640 ..this is documented over in the Ancients Forum .
    I have learnt the tricks also & currently finishing up some totally new animations , to be presented on a 640x640 .
    Tell me Stazi ... will we lose definition & clarity on the battlefield by using the 1024 ?

  10. #10
    Member Member Tyberius's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can The "forbidden Seven" be used as Mounts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stazi View Post
    Instead of 512x512 you can use 1024x1024 unit texture and easily put 4 types/colors of the same mount with the same quality into one folder (like LiHorse). In UNIT_PROD you just add another MOUNT unit type and the rest is similar to any normal unit. Just check all needed entries for existing mount types and you'll know. IIRC Macsen was going to make use of this trick in one of his mods so maybe he can add some details here.
    I believe adding new mount folders or using existing ones that belong to regular units is not possible due to the hardcoded effects linked to them.

    Hello Stazi, nice to talk to you all again, Really...Does the game actually support 1024p frames? if so, that would be fracking great! I can't even begin to fathom all the possibilities!
    Last edited by Tyberius; 01-22-2019 at 05:16. Reason: adding protocol and grammar

  11. #11
    Member Member Stazi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can The "forbidden Seven" be used as Mounts?

    Quote Originally Posted by dimitrios the samian View Post
    Tell me Stazi ... will we lose definition & clarity on the battlefield by using the 1024 ?
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyberius View Post
    Really...Does the game actually support 1024p frames?
    Nice to see you again too. Yes, the game supports 1024p textures but engine is not fully optimized for it. If you put 4 units 512p quality into 1024p texture, all those units will appear in the game 4 times smaller (2 times shorter and 2 times tighter). The SCALE factor doesn't work in the needed range so you can't scale up those units to match others made in 512p textures (that's why I think Macsen chose 640p - the difference is not too much and SCALE can cover it). The only way is to scale all other units down. Then, if you make soldiers smaller you need to reduce spaces between them in formations. It's a lot of work if you want to add only a few units but for bigger projects, why not? In the end, units and the whole army takes less space on the battlefield and maps seem to be bigger with more space for maneuvers. I've been in the process of doing all that stuff for Pike&Musket 2.0 mod but cegorach disappeared again and I didn't finish it.
    "Do not fight for glory. Do not fight for love of your lord. Do not fight for hatred, honor or faith. Fight only for victory and you will succeed." - Uji sensei.

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    Member Member dimitrios the samian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can The "forbidden Seven" be used as Mounts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stazi View Post
    ..... (that's why I think Macsen chose 640p - the difference is not too much and SCALE can cover it). The only way is to scale all other units down. I've been in the process of doing all that stuff for Pike&Musket 2.0 mod but cegorach disappeared again and I didn't finish it.
    I understand you know Stazi ...
    Even 640 is fantastic , as all Bifs that i have learnt n worked will easily fit two , so we can double the output !.
    I am finishing off some 640 plates & triple foot troops fit , they will debut in our Ancients Mods , once i get them all finished .
    Putting two riders onto a 512 is no problem and my calculated guess is 3 will fit on a 640 easily , nice !!
    Our Ancient Horse Bif Plates are different with Horse n Rider combined , buy i think two will fit on a 640 with a small scaling down ...... will do in 2020
    ..........................
    I hope you do not give up on the Pike & Musket Mod ....
    Last edited by dimitrios the samian; 01-22-2019 at 09:27.

  13. #13
    Member Member Stazi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can The "forbidden Seven" be used as Mounts?

    Quote Originally Posted by dimitrios the samian View Post
    I understand you know Stazi ...
    Sorry about not refering to you directly. Your question just reminded me of some Macsen's comments on that topic. No offense intended. Sorry once again.

    Quote Originally Posted by dimitrios the samian View Post
    Even 640 is fantastic , as all Bifs that i have learnt n worked will easily fit two , so we can double the output !.
    I am finishing off some 640 plates & triple foot troops fit , they will debut in our Ancients Mods , once i get them all finished .
    Putting two riders onto a 512 is no problem and my calculated guess is 3 will fit on a 640 easily , nice !!
    Our Ancient Horse Bif Plates are different with Horse n Rider combined , buy i think two will fit on a 640 with a small scaling down ...... will do in 2020
    Great! Can't wait to see what you did.

    Quote Originally Posted by dimitrios the samian View Post
    I hope you do not give up on the Pike & Musket Mod ....
    I was only doing some technical stuff. Only cegorach knows how the mod should look like form the gameplay perspective.
    "Do not fight for glory. Do not fight for love of your lord. Do not fight for hatred, honor or faith. Fight only for victory and you will succeed." - Uji sensei.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Can The "forbidden Seven" be used as Mounts?

    Well after not seeing the game for a few years, even the 512x512 bifs look too pixely and blurred to me.
    Alternatively i'm thinking if larger renders would be worth it(with all the repsition etc). But that's more like a remaster, all units would have to be replaced.
    Remember Duke John's "War of the Roses" models, they were pretty sharp looking.

  15. #15
    Member Member dimitrios the samian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can The "forbidden Seven" be used as Mounts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stazi View Post
    Great! Can't wait to see what you did.
    I was only doing some technical stuff. Only cegorach knows how the mod should look like form the gameplay perspective.
    Here we go .......

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  16. #16
    Member Member dimitrios the samian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can The "forbidden Seven" be used as Mounts?

    Quote Originally Posted by YanBG View Post
    Remember Duke John's "War of the Roses" models, they were pretty sharp looking.
    They are almost pixel perfect !! putting original MTW bif plates to shame ...
    i have looked closely at the original MTW we got in the game & most are unfinished , poor textures , odd proportions , missing segments , rectangles clip bits of the soldiers , etc etc .
    Last edited by dimitrios the samian; 01-23-2019 at 12:32.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Can The "forbidden Seven" be used as Mounts?

    So new factions can't own units using these 7 bifs. Can a workaround be to just not give them such units?
    But then hiring a mercenary can cause a crash? Not using these bifs would reduce the spots for new models(50 folders in total).

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    Second-hand chariot salesman Senior Member macsen rufus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can The "forbidden Seven" be used as Mounts?

    Quote Originally Posted by YanBG View Post
    So new factions can't own units using these 7 bifs. Can a workaround be to just not give them such units?
    But then hiring a mercenary can cause a crash? Not using these bifs would reduce the spots for new models(50 folders in total).
    It's not so much 'new' factions per se, it's factions beyond the 20th. If you only have 20 factions, all will be well And there is no workaround, if such a faction uses one of those BIFs you'll get a CTD going into battle - whether it's trained, hired as a mercenary, or bribed.
    You HAVE to chose - limit your factions or limit your BIFs - those are the only options (hence the joy when we started to get 640x640s working )
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  19. #19
    Member Member dimitrios the samian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can The "forbidden Seven" be used as Mounts?

    Quote Originally Posted by macsen rufus View Post
    You HAVE to chose - limit your factions or limit your BIFs - those are the only options (hence the joy when we started to get 640x640s working )
    Agreed ... example below holds another full Bif
    simply put ..... 640's are the way to go


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    Last edited by dimitrios the samian; 02-08-2019 at 08:56.

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  20. #20

    Default Re: Can The "forbidden Seven" be used as Mounts?

    @macsen rufus yes factions above #20, most regular ones have hardcoded events and glory goals(except hungary, novgorod, burgundy).
    The mod has to come with a disclaimer: "do not hire mercearies or bribe armies", the AI doesn't do that, right?

    I'd probably choose to go with 20 factions and all bifs.
    Last edited by YanBG; 02-08-2019 at 17:50.

  21. #21
    Second-hand chariot salesman Senior Member macsen rufus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can The "forbidden Seven" be used as Mounts?

    Quote Originally Posted by YanBG View Post
    @macsen rufus yes factions above #20, most regular ones have hardcoded events and glory goals(except hungary, novgorod, burgundy).
    The mod has to come with a disclaimer: "do not hire mercearies or bribe armies", the AI doesn't do that, right?
    Actually, the AI does bribe armies, plus there's also the odd unexpected unit turns up in rebellions, too... I suppose, the nearest workaround is to autocalc battles involving the dangerous BIF/faction combo, but that's no fun either




    Quote Originally Posted by YanBG View Post
    I'd probably choose to go with 20 factions and all bifs.
    Yep, all considered, I think this gives the best bang per buck....
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    Ancient TW2: Eastern Empires is under development again

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  22. #22

    Default Re: Can The "forbidden Seven" be used as Mounts?

    What about column 54 in GnomeEditor:
    "Specific cultures this unit belongs to. Any cultures specified here will exclude all other cultures from generating this unit."

    Does that control the rebel spawn?

  23. #23
    Second-hand chariot salesman Senior Member macsen rufus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can The "forbidden Seven" be used as Mounts?

    Yes, in as much as rebellions must follow the 'culture' rules (so Christian rebellions get 'Christian' troops, pagan rebellions get pagans, etc etc) but rebels per se will never be the problem here as they are 'faction 0' - that depends on whether they get bribed, and they do tend to be the best bribery targets....
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